Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

darkpagandeath

Will he bringing that boat load of middle class Idiots from the Thames too ?

Stigura

Well, at least he'll leave the keys to his properties to " Syrian Child Refugees " so

The Rape of Lucretia

wes wrote: »

Simply put, a lot of people in the EU, will be glad to see the back of Britain, after decades of Britain demanding opt outs, blaming all the problems on the EU.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

could you back up this statement?

Its true though. Having the UK in the EU, while adding weight to it as an economy, has been like driving with the hand brake on. The UK still mattered somewhat in the global political, security, and economic spheres 50 years ago. It now matters far less, and the EU is much stronger even without it.

The British have been a pain, holding back development of the European project. Wanting, in, but not really wanting being in to mean much of significance. Opting out of elements of the EU that were possible to opt out of of.
Brexit will be a new lease of life for the European integration and federal drive. It could be the greatest boost to Europe, integration, economic dynamist, cultural exchange, global influence, world leadership, possible. David Cameron may yet have an esteemed position in history of the development of the European Federal Union.

The_Valeyard

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.




He made his home over there. They can keep him.

Barry Badrinath

Fcuk off Bob ya cnut.

Fratton Fred

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The British have been a pain, holding back development of the European project. Wanting, in, but not really wanting being in to mean much of significance. Opting out of elements of the EU that were possible to opt out of

Like when they nearly derailed Lisbon because it could have imposed Abortions on all its citizens, or when it opted out of free movement of citizens of accession states?

Or are you referring to the British causing the collapse of the Maastricht treaty, or rounding up and deporting it's Roma immigrants?

The Rape of Lucretia

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Like when they nearly derailed Lisbon because it could have imposed Abortions on all its citizens, or when it opted out of free movement of citizens of accession states?

Or are you referring to the British causing the collapse of the Maastricht treaty, or rounding up and deporting it's Roma immigrants?

All of them probably. The UK is generally anti. It really is a pain for the rest of us. Their heart has always been in outsideness, rather than being true Europeans, so really, its the best for all concerned. It was about time, while painful, that the boil was lanced.

maryishere

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Isn't it free movement of workers not people.
And the talk about Germany being open to Europe is disengenous.
Who had a brake on migration from the eastern ascension states?

Not the UK. After Poland joined the Schengen Area, Poles acquired the right to work in some EU countries, while some of the members implemented transition periods. UK, Ireland, Sweden and Malta allowed Poles to work freely without any limitations from the start. Peaking in 2007, almost 2.3 million Poles lived abroad, mostly in Western Europe. As of 2013, the largest group of modern Polonia can be found in the United Kingdom (650,000), followed by that in Germany (550,000).] Significant Polish presence can also be found in Ireland (115, 000 as of 2013), in Italy (94,000 as of 2011), in the Netherlands (103,000 as of 2013), and in France (63,000 as of 2013).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migrations_from_Poland_since_EU_accession

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Its true though. Having the UK in the EU, while adding weight to it as an economy, has been like driving with the hand brake on.

Correct. Without the handbrake on, Europe would have been over the cliff years ago.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

The British have been a pain, holding back development of the European project. .

Quite correct, they have been the second biggest net contributer to EU funds and accept record numbers of immigrants. They are indeed a real pain.

A Dub in Glasgo

^^^^
Source

kingchess

I believe that ,if in a fit of madness,the entire population of the UK decided to move en mass to the south pole and make it the their new home,maryishere would be the first to applaud their wisdom and wonder why the Irish never came up with such a brilliant plan,maybe mention albert and his 10 billion ,the unemployment rate in south America and the price of guana.but that is only my belief-I might be wrong and if so I really am very very sorry.

maryishere

You would be wrong and I could not care less if you are very very sorry, as neither do you. Now, have you any relevant point to make, or have you any positive clarification or correction to make on any matter?

kingchess

I would like to point out that they would be closer to New Zealand and therefore would find it easier to get a trade deal,(you have to have a joke now and again-thread is too serious)

Junkyard Tom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG1P8MQS1cU

wes

solodeogloria wrote: »

wes: everything I've said is true. I understand you disagree with my opinion but May has never said she wants a hard Brexit or a soft Brexit but a bespoke deal.

The red line for her is immigration, and the EU will not compromise on the 4 freedoms. So yes, she has chosen a hard Brexit. The EU compromising on the 4 freedoms means the end of the EU and the single market.

The UK compromising on immigration doesn't mean the end of the UK. BTW, May has already reneged on the 350 million for the NHS that people voted for pretty much straight away, so we already know that she doesn't mind reneging on Brexit Promises. Its interesting how quickly Boris and co dropped that one, I have to say.

So by making immigration her red line, she has chosen a hard Brexit. As for a bespoke deal, it won't be what Boris etc promised. There are tough times ahead for the UK, and they have brought it on themselves.

wes

Fratton Fred wrote: »

could you back up this statement?

Did you ignore the entire Brexit campaign? British tabloid crap has been posted about the EU for years!

Boris Johnson peddled absurd EU myths – and our disgraceful press followed his lead


Debunking years of tabloid claims about Europe


Euromyths A-Z index


I can only imagine that you have chosen to ignore the years and years of lies peddled by the media in the UK for some odd reason. FFS, the European commission in the UK had to make a website due to the sheer level of lies and nonsense about the EU that has been peddled by the British media. They have lies from 1992 to 2016, and it is simply inconceivable that anyone could have possibly missed them, if they have an kind of interest in politics.

I am pretty sure some of the above links have even been posted on this or other Brexit threads on boards. I find it hard to believe that anyone could possibly be unaware of them.

solodeogloria

wes wrote: »

The red line for her is immigration, and the EU will not compromise on the 4 freedoms. So yes, she has chosen a hard Brexit. The EU compromising on the 4 freedoms means the end of the EU and the single market.

The UK compromising on immigration doesn't mean the end of the UK. BTW, May has already reneged on the 350 million for the NHS that people voted for pretty much straight away, so we already know that she doesn't mind reneging on Brexit Promises. Its interesting how quickly Boris and co dropped that one, I have to say.

So by making immigration her red line, she has chosen a hard Brexit. As for a bespoke deal, it won't be what Boris etc promised. There are tough times ahead for the UK, and they have brought it on themselves.

Good morning!

I think you are confusing what Britain is asking for with what the EU wants to give it. Britain has never asked for trade barriers. The EU claim that trade barriers will be raised. That isn't necessarily the only option. It also wasn't necessarily the only option that the EU had to decline preparatory talks with May. This is what the EU wants to do and that's fine. It's got every right to play bloody hard with Britain but Britain has every right to argue for what the British public gave it. The EU can make that as hard or as soft as it likes but I believe it is in the EU's interests not to make it hard when nobody else is asking for it to be hard.

I don't think May can or will compromise on free movement. It was a key reason why leave won. Cameron asked the EU for reasonable concessions in immigration and was told no. If immigration isn't resolved as an issue in these negotiations the Conservatives are sunk. The people very clearly want to control their own borders. Which isn't a huge demand it is what most sovereign states the world over insist on. The EU didn't listen to Britain's concerns under Cameron but they do have to be centre stage now. Freedom of movement can't continue after Brexit.

My belief is you'll end up with a limited trade deal on services and more control over immigration (not necessarily everything May may want).

As for the 350mn figure, it wasn't the best argued point because it is gross contribution. However after Brexit more of the 10 billion that the UK gives the EU will be in Britain's hand.

My point is that despite what some people claim here Britain will not fall apart after Brexit. It will pay a price for sure, but it could benefit in years to come. I think Britain will be a more open trading country after Brexit. Not more closed. For Ireland it is in it's interests to argue for the most open trade arrangement with Britain. A veto on this will mean a 5% tariff on goods to the UK on top of a weak pound. There is no way that that is good for Ireland.

Also here is an article in The Irish Times about the common corporate tax harmonisation that Ireland will have to stand up for itself on to keep corporate America happy.

With thanks,
solodeogloria

Fratton Fred

wes wrote: »

Did you ignore the entire Brexit campaign? British tabloid crap has been posted about the EU for years!

Boris Johnson peddled absurd EU myths – and our disgraceful press followed his lead


Debunking years of tabloid claims about Europe


Euromyths A-Z index


I can only imagine that you have chosen to ignore the years and years of lies peddled by the media in the UK for some odd reason. FFS, the European commission in the UK had to make a website due to the sheer level of lies and nonsense about the EU that has been peddled by the British media. They have lies from 1992 to 2016, and it is simply inconceivable that anyone could have possibly missed them, if they have an kind of interest in politics.

I am pretty sure some of the above links have even been posted on this or other Brexit threads on boards. I find it hard to believe that anyone could possibly be unaware of them.

ok, so here is what you said and lets see if you can back it up

wes wrote: »

Simply put, a lot of people in the EU, will be glad to see the back of Britain, after decades of Britain demanding opt outs, blaming all the problems on the EU, and constant smears and lies.

Please give me an example (other then the After Hours uber patriots) of the lots of people who will be glad to see the back of the UK, because I deal extensively with people all over europe and other than the ones (particularly in the Netherlands and Denmark) who think the UK is doing the right thing, the rest are all very worried about the UK leaving the eu. Particularly in Germany who see the UK as a welcome voice of reason in a europe that is increasingly being run for the small countries, but paid for by the large ones.

I'm interested in the opts out the UK has as well, can you give me three examples of "Opt Outs" that are unique to the UK?

Winterlong

Last thing we need is him lecturing us like he does them in England.

SEPT 23 1989

He pushed Brexit over the line with his last minute intervention on the Thames

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

ok, so here is what you said and lets see if you can back it up



Please give me an example (other then the After Hours uber patriots) of the lots of people who will be glad to see the back of the UK, because I deal extensively with people all over europe and other than the ones (particularly in the Netherlands and Denmark) who think the UK is doing the right thing, the rest are all very worried about the UK leaving the eu. Particularly in Germany who see the UK as a welcome voice of reason in a europe that is increasingly being run for the small countries, but paid for by the large ones.

I'm interested in the opts out the UK has as well, can you give me three examples of "Opt Outs" that are unique to the UK?

Et Tu Brutus.

Can you show that 'the rest' of the 'people all over Europe' who think the UK is 'doing the right thing'?.


*Are you counting Mary's 'friends' in that?

AndyBoBandy

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Will he bringing that boat load of middle class Idiots from the Thames too ?

My brother is firmly of the opinion it was these idiots that lost it for them. (or certainly it was a key decider for many undecideds)

Whatever about protesting Farage, thats fine he's an idiot, however it was the fishermen who traveled the high seas from around the U.K. to be there, to have their day in the media, to air their grievances on a national platform, and it was ruined by Geldof and his boat load of wealthy gobshítés.

Calina

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

I think you are confusing what Britain is asking for with what the EU wants to give it. Britain has never asked for trade barriers.

I think you are wrong here. Britain has asked to leave the EU and absent another agreement, trade barriers are inevitable. The EU didn't ask the UK to leave so where we are is as a result of a British decision, the ramifications of which include trade barriers unless the EU mitigates the UK decision by producing another agreement.

In that context, the UK needs to recognise that it took a decision with certain ramifications which the EU is honest enough to recognise even if the UK is still faffing around pretending they can have their cake and eat it.

solodeogloria wrote: »

The EU claim that trade barriers will be raised. That isn't necessarily the only option. It also wasn't necessarily the only option that the EU had to decline preparatory talks with May. This is what the EU wants to do and that's fine. It's got every right to play bloody hard with Britain but Britain has every right to argue for what the British public gave it. The EU can make that as hard or as soft as it likes but I believe it is in the EU's interests not to make it hard when nobody else is asking for it to be hard.

If the UK leaves without an agreement, there will be tariff barriers, and there are likely to be issues with tariff quotas as well. Again, we are here not because of what the EU has done but because of what the UK has done. You are arguing that the EU should not fulfill the logical ramifications of what the EU has done because that's playing hardball.

It's not. It's being a grown up and the UK is demonstrating a shocking inability to demonstrate that it is a grown up in this respect.

solodeogloria wrote: »

I don't think May can or will compromise on free movement. It was a key reason why leave won. Cameron asked the EU for reasonable concessions in immigration and was told no. If immigration isn't resolved as an issue in these negotiations the Conservatives are sunk. The people very clearly want to control their own borders. Which isn't a huge demand it is what most sovereign states the world over insist on. The EU didn't listen to Britain's concerns under Cameron but they do have to be centre stage now. Freedom of movement can't continue after Brexit.

The EU is not required to compromise on anything. Britain voted out and again, they need to act like grown ups.

The UK has being demonstrating a complete lack of ability to control their own borders in respect of non-EU immigration. Their position on EU immigration is untenable in the context of their own failures. Note also that the widening of the EU - ie the increased membership - was British policy - the other two big countries were looking for deeper political links within the existing membership prior to 2000.

So the UK finds itself in a position where it is unhappy with immigration: the part it can control it doesn't control and the part it claims not to be able to control is directly as a result of its own policies within the last 20 years.

solodeogloria wrote: »

My belief is you'll end up with a limited trade deal on services and more control over immigration (not necessarily everything May may want).

I don't object to that but this will not be agreed within the next 2 years because the Article 50 negotiations are not about trade per se, they are about moving the UK out of EU structures.

solodeogloria wrote: »

As for the 350mn figure, it wasn't the best argued point because it is gross contribution. However after Brexit more of the 10 billion that the UK gives the EU will be in Britain's hand.

It's strangely similar to the amount of tax the UK will forgo if they drop their corporation tax rates per Treasury calculations. As a result, I doubt very much whether that money will ever amount to anything. Their tax base is starting to narrow already. The money may simply not even exist.

solodeogloria wrote: »

My point is that despite what some people claim here Britain will not fall apart after Brexit. It will pay a price for sure, but it could benefit in years to come. I think Britain will be a more open trading country after Brexit. Not more closed.

It will not benefit the country as a whole, however.

solodeogloria wrote: »

For Ireland it is in it's interests to argue for the most open trade arrangement with Britain. A veto on this will mean a 5% tariff on goods to the UK on top of a weak pound. There is no way that that is good for Ireland.

Ireland would be far better off reducing its dependency on the UK. Any supplier will tell you having a single customer is not beneficial for long term planning. In a certain respect, we could wind up hurting a bit for Brexit but being better off in the long term by weaning ourselves off that market. We have been doing so so far.

solodeogloria wrote: »

Also here is an article in The Irish Times about the common corporate tax harmonisation that Ireland will have to stand up for itself on to keep corporate America happy.

With thanks,
solodeogloria

TBH, tax harmonisation has certain benefits but it will almost certainly cause bigger problems in countries like France whose tax codes are significantly more opaque. I think it's Ronan Lyons who wrote a piece comparing Irish taxation code to other countries and pointed out that broadly, we had a low tax rate but collected most of it whereas other countries which had apparently high rates collected far less of it via allowable write offs. Ireland is also not the only country with a comparatively low corporation tax. I'm pretty sure one of the Baltics has a lower rate again.

All due respect, certain things are happening because of Brexit and we are not required to mitigate the UK at our own expense for what is a delusional decision on their part. Other things, like tax harmonisation, would be up for discussion anyway.

FrancieBrady

solodeogloria wrote: »

My point is that despite what some people claim here Britain will not fall apart after Brexit.

That is far too early to say, all the signs are that Britain will at some point face another Scottish independence push.
All the signs are that Britain will have to for a medium to long term period have to impose stringent austerity to survive and we know who will bear the brunt of that. That will deepen already deep social divides across the country.

Also here is an article in The Irish Times about the common corporate tax harmonisation that Ireland will have to stand up for itself on to keep corporate America happy.

We have exactly the same amount of clout, vetos etc that we had before Brexit.
If there was one thing I would like to see in the EU it is smaller country's being more assertive and standing for what they believe in. Time for us to mature and stand for what we believe and need to survive.
The EU needs to reform and allowing flexibility on things like this are important.

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Et Tu Brutus.

Can you show that 'the rest' of the 'people all over Europe' who think the UK is 'doing the right thing'?.


*Are you counting Mary's 'friends' in that?

I am aware that English may not be your first language, but i did quite clearly point out that these are people I deal with on a daily basis.

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I am aware that English may not be your first language, but i did quite clearly point out that these are people I deal with on a daily basis.

In the same league as Mary's 'friends' then. Carry on.

whatstherush

solodeogloria wrote: »

The EU didn't listen to Britain's concerns under Cameron but they do have to be centre stage now.

They did listen but when Cameron was asked how migration was adversely affected the UK he had nothing to say

“To be honest, we failed to find any evidence of communities under pressure,” Mr Korski wrote on the Politico website.

“We even asked the help of Migration Watch, an organisation that has been critical of migration. But all [it] could provide was an article in The Daily Telegraph about a hospital maternity ward in Corby. There was no hard evidence.”

Peregrinus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Please give me an example (other then the After Hours uber patriots) of the lots of people who will be glad to see the back of the UK, because I deal extensively with people all over europe and other than the ones (particularly in the Netherlands and Denmark) who think the UK is doing the right thing, the rest are all very worried about the UK leaving the eu. Particularly in Germany who see the UK as a welcome voice of reason in a europe that is increasingly being run for the small countries, but paid for by the large ones.

Brexit is a Bad Thing for the EU; no doubt about it.

But Wes may have a point. Every cloud has some silver lining. At least we won't have to put up with the constant ill-informed whinging.

whatstherush

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

Britain has never asked for trade barriers.

This is also untrue too. May specifically said that the UK will no longer be subject to foreign courts in her speech to the CPC, well guess what the corollary of that is
"And the third reveal makes it equally clear that Britain will leave the customs union as there is no way you can be part of a union if you do not wish to accept its legal arbiter."

And just to be clear this would be an example of a non tariff trade barrier, similar to bank passporting rights.

FrancieBrady

Speaking of 'first languages'.
The overwhelming actual message coming from Europe is a very pronounced 'F You Britain if you think you can vote to leave and get to dictate anything'.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-negotiator-talks-french-michel-barnier-negotiation-insists-eu-article-50-conducted-a7373556.html?cmpid=facebook-post#gallery

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In the same league as Mary's 'friends' then. Carry on.

you can deflect as much as you like. any chance you could have a stab at answering the questions?