Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that surprise me, when you consider places like Sunderland and Bradford, which are very strong Labour regions wards voted to leave.

What percentage of Tory voters voted to remain?

39%. Bizarrely, 5% of UKIP voters also voted remain.

steddyeddy

But Labour was hardly spearheading the remain campaign. Jeremy was silent throughout the whole thing and didn't provide a decent opposition to the Tories.

catbear

steddyeddy wrote: »

But Labour was hardly spearheading the remain campaign. Jeremy was silent throughout the whole thing and didn't provide a decent opposition to the Tories.

A utterly bankrupt, broke and depressed isolated Britain is a far better petrie dish for his theoretical society.

May as in a triumphalist march holding the British standard aloft while Corbyn walks behind her with a wreath.

Professor Moriarty

steddyeddy wrote: »

But Labour was hardly spearheading the remain campaign. Jeremy was silent throughout the whole thing and didn't provide a decent opposition to the Tories.

Corbyn is the corollary of Johnson and his ilk. The greatest betrayal of ordinary Brits was his elevation to leader of the Labour party. The Tories continue to merrily mishandle governance because of ineffective opposition and Corbyn's unelectability. They know they have nothing to fear as Labour has fallen away sharply in the polls since the election.

Professor Moriarty

catbear wrote: »

A utterly bankrupt, broke and depressed isolated Britain is a far better petrie dish for his theoretical society.

May as in a triumphalist march holding the British standard aloft while Corbyn walks behind her with a wreath.

He actually would sacrifice the country to fulfil his dream.

jmayo

catbear wrote: »

A utterly bankrupt, broke and depressed isolated Britain is a far better petrie dish for his theoretical society.

May as in a triumphalist march holding the British standard aloft while Corbyn walks behind her with a wreath.

Actually Britain is just another example of the dearth of political leaders in the Western world today.

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

no, realpolitik is that the eu, particularly the larger economies, would welcome back the UK, as it is weaker without it. I know this is annoying to people like you, but it is the reality.

You and My Little Pony tell us loudly that Bexit is GOING to happen though.
And the realpolitik of that will be bitter recrimination for the UK's long record of behaviour as illustrated by Perigrinus.
It's called 'chickens coming home to roost' in political circles.

MrPudding

Fratton Fred wrote: »

that surprise me, when you consider places like Sunderland and Bradford, which are very strong Labour regions wards voted to leave.

What percentage of Tory voters voted to remain?

I think you are looking at this too simplistically. The "average" tory voter has been doing reasonably well, up to now. The people that have been getting screwed over are those in Sunderland and Bradford, they might not be tory voters, but for decades they, along with everyone else, have been fed a steady diet of sh1t telling them all their problems are the EU's fault. No matter where your political allegiance lies, sh1t starts to stick.

Can't get a house? That'll be immigrants. What? No, nothing to do with us not building houses, or stopping local authority build houses, or forcing local authorities to get rid of their housing stock. No siree, definitely immigrant.

What? You can't get to see a doctor or you had to wait for 7 hours in A&E? That is awful. Bloody immigrants again. Coming over here taking all out appointments. What? You heard it was because we have been systematically cutting funding to the NHS to such an extent that it is bound to fail. What so you mean you don't believe me? Look! Over there! An immigrant.

MrP

First Up

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You and My Little Pony tell us loudly that Bexit is GOING to happen though.
And the realpolitik of that will be bitter recrimination for the UK's long record of behaviour as illustrated by Perigrinus.
It's called 'chickens coming home to roost' in political circles.

The EU will be weaker economically but stronger spiritually with the UK out.

Them getting back in would be a long and unpredictable journey. There would need to be seismic upheaval in the UK first and the EU they would seek to rejoin is sure to be quite different from the one they are leaving.

Whatever Brexit deal is done will be designed as a permanent arrangement, and rightly so. That includes how we will relate to the UK and to Continental Europe from here on.

Professor Moriarty

MrPudding wrote: »

I think you are looking at this too simplistically. The "average" tory voter has been doing reasonably well, up to now. The people that have been getting screwed over are those in Sunderland and Bradford, they might not be tory voters, but for decades they, along with everyone else, have been fed a steady diet of sh1t telling them all their problems are the EU's fault. No matter where your political allegiance lies, sh1t starts to stick.

Can't get a house? That'll be immigrants. What? No, nothing to do with us not building houses, or stopping local authority build houses, or forcing local authorities to get rid of their housing stock. No siree, definitely immigrant.

What? You can't get to see a doctor or you had to wait for 7 hours in A&E? That is awful. Bloody immigrants again. Coming over here taking all out appointments. What? You heard it was because we have been systematically cutting funding to the NHS to such an extent that it is bound to fail. What so you mean you don't believe me? Look! Over there! An immigrant.

MrP

Them and us. Works every time.

Fratton Fred

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You and My Little Pony tell us loudly that Bexit is GOING to happen though

is it not then?

was the whole referendum thing some sort of mirage?

FrancieBrady

Fratton Fred wrote: »

is it not then?

was the whole referendum thing some sort of mirage?

I don't know if it will or not.
Will May have a government to do it? Maybe there a few twists left yet.
All we know is they are still faffing about, still doing damage and Article 50 hasn't been implemented yet.

A Little Pony

It will be in March though. The people have spoken, the politicians do what is best for them and MPs only care about keeping themselves in a job (most MPs, maybe not all of them to be fair).

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

It will be in March though. The people have spoken, the politicians do what is best for them and MPs only care about keeping themselves in a job (most MPs, maybe not all of them to be fair).

When there is an option not to implement Art 50 then NOBODY could be categorical about the intentions or indeed capabilities of a government that can't seem to hold on to the key people.

Fratton Fred

MrPudding wrote: »

I think you are looking at this too simplistically. The "average" tory voter has been doing reasonably well, up to now. The people that have been getting screwed over are those in Sunderland and Bradford, they might not be tory voters, but for decades they, along with everyone else, have been fed a steady diet of sh1t telling them all their problems are the EU's fault. No matter where your political allegiance lies, sh1t starts to stick.

Can't get a house? That'll be immigrants. What? No, nothing to do with us not building houses, or stopping local authority build houses, or forcing local authorities to get rid of their housing stock. No siree, definitely immigrant.

What? You can't get to see a doctor or you had to wait for 7 hours in A&E? That is awful. Bloody immigrants again. Coming over here taking all out appointments. What? You heard it was because we have been systematically cutting funding to the NHS to such an extent that it is bound to fail. What so you mean you don't believe me? Look! Over there! An immigrant.

MrP

I think you're looking at it too simplistically. I had no doubt that remain would win, comfortably, then I saw articles like this appearing in, of all places, the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/jun/18/eu-vote-brexit-working-people-rents-wages

I'd be interested to know where you got your figures on the number of labour voters who voted remain, if you could post a link.

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think you're looking at it too simplistically. I had no doubt that remain would win, comfortably, then I saw articles like this appearing in, of all places, the Guardian.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/blog/2016/jun/18/eu-vote-brexit-working-people-rents-wages

I'd be interested to know where you got your figures on the number of labour voters who voted remain, if you could post a link.

They were my figures: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

They were my figures: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/

interesting figures. I guessed it would have been from a survey, because there would have been many voters who did not vote in the 2015 election.

I still find it hard to understand how Labour voters could have voted so heavily to remain, yet their strongholds voted to leave. Mind you, Labour lost a lot of ground in the last election to UKIP, so that may explain some of it.

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

interesting figures. I guessed it would have been from a survey, because there would have been many voters who did not vote in the 2015 election.

I still find it hard to understand how Labour voters could have voted so heavily to remain, yet their strongholds voted to leave. Mind you, Labour lost a lot of ground in the last election to UKIP, so that may explain some of it.

Exactly. Labour's support has dropped by 14% over the past four years and much of that may have drifted to the Tories and UKIP.

Peregrinus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I still find it hard to understand how Labour voters could have voted so heavily to remain, yet their strongholds voted to leave.

This may be in part because when you hear "Labour stronghold" you think of the North of England, but you fail to think of London. Huge areas of London are solidly Labour, and London voted strongly to remain.

Fratton Fred

Peregrinus wrote: »

This may be in part because when you hear "Labour stronghold" you think of the North of England, but you fail to think of London. Huge areas of London are solidly Labour, and London voted strongly to remain.

Oh I know that, but a lot is solidly Conservative as well, in the 2015 election, 45% voted Labour, 35% Tory.

If you take Richmond for example, a strong Tory area and had one of the largest remain votes in the country. Battersea and Putney both returned Tory MPs, yet Wandsworth voted 75% in favour of remain.

the numbers just seem "odd".

steddyeddy

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Exactly. Labour's support has dropped by 14% over the past four years and much of that may have drifted to the Tories and UKIP.

And the SNP in Scotland. If independence happens the England can blame Labour.

Fratton Fred

steddyeddy wrote: »

And the SNP in Scotland. If independence happens the England can blame thank Labour.

fixed that for you

Unpossible

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I still find it hard to understand how Labour voters could have voted so heavily to remain, yet their strongholds voted to leave.

Perhaps if the voting system was PR instead of first past the post it wouldn't be a labour stronghold. I think the current system skews things a bit.

A Little Pony

UKIP got 4 million votes and one MP. Tells you all you need to know. 4 million people with no representation at Westminster.

A Dub in Glasgo

A Little Pony wrote: »

UKIP got 4 million votes and one MP. Tells you all you need to know. 4 million people with no representation at Westminster.

They are represented by the Tories

Are you in favour of PR for Westminster elections?

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

UKIP got 4 million votes and one MP. Tells you all you need to know. 4 million people with no representation at Westminster.

The UK dodged a bullet there then!

Billy86

A Little Pony wrote: »

UKIP got 4 million votes and one MP. Tells you all you need to know. 4 million people with no representation at Westminster.

Tough, that's how the UK system works.

catbear

Billy86 wrote: »

Tough, that's how the UK system works.

It the purpose of the system was to create minority governments then it does work.

Billy86

catbear wrote: »

It the purpose of the system was to create minority governments then it does work.

I never said it's a great system just that it is how it works, no different to how the US electoral college system is not a great system but it is still how it work.

catbear

catbear wrote: »

It the purpose of the system was to create minority governments then it does work.

The FPTP system really excels in preventing minority single interest groups from ever getting into power, the UKIP vote and lack of MPs being a classic example.