Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Fratton Fred

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You mean, someone cuts around the land surrounding Coulport and Faselane and transports it to where Trident goes? Does that include the deep water and mountain as well?

if you go back to the original point about the rUK renting naval bases from an independent Scottish government, then they aren't going to do that without Trident remaining there. The whole point of the base is to give submarines easy access to the North Atlantic. If the Trident subs need a base further down the coast, the other subs will follow suit.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

tough ****. Democracy may not give the results we like, but the government has to respect the wishes of the majority

The problem being that what the "majority" wish for is a fantasy and in direct conflict with the government's responsibility to look after the interests of the wider population.

But we'll enjoy watching how they square that circle. It has been good fun so far and will only get better.

Iwasfrozen

First Up wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote:

tough ****. Democracy may not give the results we like, but the government has to respect the wishes of the majority

The problem being that what the "majority" wish for is a fantasy and in direct conflict with the government's responsibility to look after the interests of the wider population.

But we'll enjoy watching how they square that circle. It has been good fun so far and will only get better.

Leaving the EU is not a fantasy. That's what the vote was on.

Nor is the EU the be all and end all. A deal with the US alone would give the UK access to a market bigger than the EU. An idea Trump has been very receptive to.

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

The problem being that what the "majority" wish for is a fantasy and in direct conflict with the government's responsibility to look after the interests of the wider population.

what is a fantasy about leaving the EU?

PopePalpatine

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Leaving the EU is not a fantasy. That's what the vote was on.

Nor is the EU the be all and end all. A deal with the US alone would give the UK access to a market bigger than the EU. An idea Trump has been very receptive to.

Let's see what his Commerce Secretary - who has responsibility for trade deals - has to say.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote:

what is a fantasy about leaving the EU?

The fantasy is what they think will happen as a result.

Iwasfrozen

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Leaving the EU is not a fantasy. That's what the vote was on.

Nor is the EU the be all and end all. A deal with the US alone would give the UK access to a market bigger than the EU. An idea Trump has been very receptive to.

Let's see what his Commerce Secretary - who has responsibility for trade deals - has to say.

None of which contradicts his boss.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/11/18/donald-trump-wants-to-do-a-huge-trade-deal-with-britain-next-yea/

The US market is bigger than the entity of the EU. A US-Canada-UK trading bloc would dwarf the EU as an institution.

Traditionally Britain has kept one foot in Europe but its strength has been maritime trade in the Atlantic. As Europe fragments perhaps its time to return to that policy.

First Up

Iwasfrozen wrote:

Nor is the EU the be all and end all. A deal with the US alone would give the UK access to a market bigger than the EU. An idea Trump has been very receptive to.

The UK already has access to the US.

Iwasfrozen

First Up wrote: »

The UK already has access to the US.

The EU and the US don't have a free trade agreement. The EU has been holding the UK back in that regard.

MrPudding

A Little Pony wrote: »

Good for him, George Osborne said an emergency budget would in play the moment the vote was over and if leave won. It didn't happen. Brexit IS going to happen, time Theresa May put the peddle down to the mettle now. Actually, scrap the negotiations and just get out ASAP.

As has been pointed out to you many, many times before, the consequences that were spoken of before the vote were based on Cameron's statement that article 50 would be triggered the day after the referendum result, should the result be leave.

In case you have not been keeping up, article 50 has not been triggered yet, and as a result, we have not yet seen the consequences of that, so there was no need for an emergency budget. This really isn't difficult stuff.

MrP

RasTa

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

None of which contradicts his boss.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/11/18/donald-trump-wants-to-do-a-huge-trade-deal-with-britain-next-yea/

The US market is bigger than the entity of the EU. A US-Canada-UK trading bloc would dwarf the EU as an institution.

The EU and Canada just signed a free trade deal, Uk are now leaving said trade deal but they might be able to set up their own however they won't have as much bargaining power on tariffs as the whole EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/30/eu-canada-sign-ceta-free-trade-deal-trudeau-juncker

Trumps trade advisor knows this and is correct. IDA have already started trying to take business away from the UK.

IDA have announced today that foreign companies now employ 200k in Ireland.

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/jobs/ida-report-2016


It's so obvious I don't know why I have to mention this. UK have no power in this deal and they will be punished by the EU because of this.

end of the road

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A majority voted to leave.

That's not relevant, the government isn't going to ignore the result.

a majority of a minority voted to leave. the government will do whatever is in it's interests, if that is brexit then brexit will happen, if not then it won't.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Leaving the EU is not a fantasy. That's what the vote was on.

Nor is the EU the be all and end all. A deal with the US alone would give the UK access to a market bigger than the EU. An idea Trump has been very receptive to.

and a deal with the EU and US would be even bigger. remaining within the EU is the best thing for britain. it's not as if the reasons for brexit will be delivered anyway. they're will still be black and brown people in britain, people will still come to britain, some of the natives will still be unemployable, public services won't get more funding, companies will still go off to cheeper countries like china. people will will only lose from brexit, as they're will be no access to european funding for projects, and various things. the tories sure as hell aren't going to fund them.

Junkyard Tom

A Little Pony wrote: »

Actually, scrap the negotiations and just get out ASAP.

You do understand that your tenuous links with Britain stand a good chance of being severed via the GFA UI roadmap if the British don't make this Brexit thing work?

You, and people like you, may well be looked upon by your ancestors as those who destroyed your beloved, if unrequited, union. Congratulations.

Iwasfrozen

RasTa wrote: »

The EU and Canada just signed a free trade deal, Uk are now leaving said trade deal but they might be able to set up their own however they won't have as much bargaining power on tariffs as the whole EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/oct/30/eu-canada-sign-ceta-free-trade-deal-trudeau-juncker

Trumps trade advisor knows this and is correct. IDA have already started trying to take business away from the UK.

IDA have announced today that foreign companies now employ 200k in Ireland.

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/jobs/ida-report-2016


It's so obvious I don't know why I have to mention this. UK have no power in this deal and they will be punished by the EU because of this.

The UK is the world's 5th largest economy. Tell me again how it's "so obvious" they won't have much leverage against Canada?

A free trade deal with the US is an idea Trump seems receptive to. Canada's economy is much smaller than the UK's and they have had a long standing free trade agreement under NAFDA.

Christy42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The UK is the world's 5th largest economy. Tell me again how it's "so obvious" they won't have much leverage against Canada?

A free trade deal with the US is an idea Trump seems receptive to. Canada's economy is much smaller than the UK's and they have had a long standing free trade agreement under NAFDA.

Aside from the isolationist policies of Trump?

He is against all those trade deals. He will hardly make another giving more away to the UK than he gets in return. Well he might but certainly his financial advisors will be against it.

Iwasfrozen

end of the road wrote: »

a majority of a minority voted to leave. the government will do whatever is in it's interests, if that is brexit then brexit will happen, if not then it won't.

Actually no. Brexit is going to happen whether the government believes its in its interests or not.

and a deal with the EU and US would be even bigger. remaining within the EU is the best thing for britain. it's not as if the reasons for brexit will be delivered anyway. they're will still be black and brown people in britain, people will still come to britain, some of the natives will still be unemployable, public services won't get more funding, companies will still go off to cheeper countries like china. people will will only lose from brexit, as they're will be no access to european funding for projects, and various things. the tories sure as hell aren't going to fund them.

The UK was a net contributer to the EU. So finding arguments are irrelevant.

A free trade deal between the EU and the US would be bigger bit for political reasons it won't happen.

RasTa

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The UK is the world's 5th largest economy. Tell me again how it's "so obvious" they won't have much leverage against Canada?

A free trade deal with the US is an idea Trump seems receptive to. Canada's economy is much smaller than the UK's and they have had a long standing free trade agreement under NAFDA.

So? The German economy is much bigger than the UK in 4th, the French is 5th and Italy in 8th

Do I need to explain more? UK won't be the 5th anymore when it has to re-negotiate all these deals that has it up to number 5

Iwasfrozen

Christy42 wrote: »

Aside from the isolationist policies of Trump?

He is against all those trade deals. He will hardly make another giving more away to the UK than he gets in return. Well he might but certainly his financial advisors will be against it.

Nah, Trump is against free trade deals with low wage countries like Mexico which he believes pull jobs away from Americans.

He has stated no intention to renegotiate Canada's part of NAFDA and has publicly endorsed a deal with the UK.

steddyeddy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Leaving the EU is not a fantasy. That's what the vote was on.

Nor is the EU the be all and end all. A deal with the US alone would give the UK access to a market bigger than the EU. An idea Trump has been very receptive to.

Trump's trade secretary stated that nations should take advantage of Brexit.

Iwasfrozen

RasTa wrote: »

So? The German economy is much bigger than the UK in 4th, the French is 5th and Italy in 8th

Do I need to explain more? UK won't be the 5th anymore when it has to re-negotiate all these deals that has it up to number 5

Actually the UK is 5th.

So? So both Canada and Mexico have free trade deals with the US. Clearly having a smaller economy does not preclude one from having a free trade deal with the US.

The UK of course is bigger than both of them.

First Up

Iwasfrozen wrote:

The EU and the US don't have a free trade agreement. The EU has been holding the UK back in that regard.

He said access, not free trade. The UK is welcome to negotiate its trade deal with the US but if it is a free trade deal, there will be only one winner - and it won't be the UK.

PopePalpatine

steddyeddy wrote: »

Trump's trade secretary stated that nations should take advantage of Brexit.

And I'd imagine he'd want the USA to do the same with a desperate post-Brexit UK.

Fratton Fred

First Up wrote: »

The fantasy is what they think will happen as a result.

what do they think will happen? why did the majority vote to leave the eu?

Fratton Fred

PopePalpatine wrote: »

And I'd imagine he'd want the USA to do the same with a desperate post-Brexit UK.

I'd imagine the first thing he will do is target US companies hiding profits made in the eu in offshore tax havens.

After he has finished penalising the ones that move production to Mexico of course

RasTa

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what do they think will happen? why did the majority vote to leave the eu?

Muslims

A Little Pony

Shenshen wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Another traitor then. Time to listen to the British people who voted in a majority to leave.

I think you'll find that ambassadors are not elected.

He's quitting a job that has changed dramatically, and not in a way he feels he can support - what's "traitorous" about that?

Working for his country, it should be seen as an absolute honour. He should respect the will of the people and get on with it. Stop trying to bend and weave and do everything to stall. Someone a few pages back said reverse this decision, what is that all about?

If the Irish people voted on something, should it be ignored and the will of the people go unheard? It is farcical, we might as well not have a democracy, you vote for something and it is ignored, makes the vote utterly useless.

A Little Pony

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Actually, scrap the negotiations and just get out ASAP.

You do understand that your tenuous links with Britain stand a good chance of being severed via the GFA UI roadmap if the British don't make this Brexit thing work?

You, and people like you, may well be looked upon by your ancestors as those who destroyed your beloved, if unrequited, union. Congratulations.

You are obsessed with my Unionism. This is about Brexit, stop talking about a United Ireland. It isn't happening.

Iwasfrozen

steddyeddy wrote: »

Trump's trade secretary stated that nations should take advantage of Brexit.

He has and they should, neither of which contradict his boss's enthusiastic support for a trade deal.

RobertKK

Brexit is such a farce.

Nigel Farage happy over today's events when it is bad for the UK. Hard Brexit is on the cards which is not good for the UK. It might be bad in one way for Ireland but good in other ways.
The EU is where it is at in Europe, countries like Norway and Switzerland pay into the EU for benefits. The irony is the UK will have to do the same and go from having a say to no say if they want to remain in the single market, and that means the free movement of people.
The people who voted for Brexit will not win what they argued.
The EU has Norway and Switzerland to consider and will not offer the UK a deal that would be superior to what other countries who are not in the EU get in Europe.
Brexit was not very clever, and it has made the UK look stupid - like headless chickens running around at the moment, and don't appear to know what they are doing.
The EU will be no pushover, and the UK is the minor party in all of this and the UK does not go into negotiations from a position of strength.

Iwasfrozen

First Up wrote: »

He said access, not free trade. The UK is welcome to negotiate its trade deal with the US but if it is a free trade deal, there will be only one winner - and it won't be the UK.

How do you work that out?

Canada and the US both benefit from their deal.