Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I believe in democracy, but I also believe in governments getting on and doing the job they are paid to do.

So you want less democracy and governments to sleep walk people into decisions


If brexit was left to the UK government they wouldn't be a brexit???

Fratton Fred

tomwaterford wrote: »

So you want less democracy and governments to sleep walk people into decisions


If brexit was left to the UK government they wouldn't be a brexit???

You could put it another way. 17,000,000 people want to limit the free movement of people, so the UK has to leave the eu. A region of Belgium doesn't want a trade deal with Canada and therefore the trade deal gets rejected.

Personally, I'd keep both, but democracy does seem to be a bit skewed.

maryishere

tomwaterford wrote: »

If brexit was left to the UK government they wouldn't be a brexit???

There would not be an EU if there was not a UK government.

It will look back in future years and realise it had a lucky escape from the EU. It subsidised it for long enough.

indioblack

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you totally missed all the rabid jingoism and Europhobia of the British media for the past four decades? The scapegoating of every British failing as being the EU's fault? The "let's put the Great back into Great Britain again" drones who want Britain to have a second coming as a world power? The incessant contrasts between Britain's non-leadership of the EU, Britain's former "greatest power on earth" status and the unprecedented power of Germany in 2016 (or 2006, 1996...)?

The country you regularly feel the need to defend is outstanding in its desperation to make the EU a scapegoat for all that decline in British imperial "glory" and world power status. And to think the Germans, having lost the war, are now by far Europe's leading power...

History, or rather delusional perceptions of British imperial history, have always powered British Francophobia/Germanophobia/Europhobia. Always.

Nice rant.
"...little direct bearing on Brexit". What I should have typed was little direct bearing on this thread.
In fairness, despite your OTT descriptions, there are indirect connections.
It's possible to go down the route of describing a former colonial power, post war, slowly coming to terms with it's reduced status in a world, specifically Europe, that was obliged to put the past behind it and move on.
So there are elements in all of your points that would play a part in some peoples thinking.
Nevertheless, too much can be made of this.
The Brexit result should focus people on the practical business of exiting the EU and attempting to make a living outside of it.
In this and the last thread, you'll not find me mindlessly defending the UK or it's electorate.

Capt'n Midnight

tomwaterford wrote: »

Brexit was presumably fought to force then out and return to a manufacturing economy??

Services represent 80% of the UK economy. Not sure how they'll ramp up manufacturing to offset what they'll loose through not being able to passport services within the EU


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/29/services-rescue-uk-economy-from-worsening-downturn/

Total UK exports of services last year totalled £226bn, around £8,400 per UK household, and only just behind the value of our manufactured exports – £229bn.
..
The UK is the second-biggest exporter of services in the world behind the United States.
...
Out of nearly 2.5m new jobs created since the end of 2009, over 2.2m have been created in services.

catbear

The old joke goes, no matter who you vote for the government always wins.

The government lost brexit and the country is being led by a muling mutinous nativist narrative that brokers no compromise.

Capt'n Midnight

the evasion_kid wrote: »

to quote a famous Russian " I've lived in you're future....it doesn't work"

Slightly off topic

the history of Russia can be summed up as "Somehow, things got worse",

Junkyard Tom

indioblack wrote: »

I didn't single you out. Your post was there when I chose to comment.

Maybe you should be a little more rigorous and follow the flow of the discussion before you choose to single people out for criticism and then it wouldn't look like you've an axe to grind with one particular individual.

indioblack

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Maybe you should be a little more rigorous and follow the flow of the discussion before you choose to single people out for criticism and then it wouldn't look like you've an axe to grind with one particular individual.

No axe being ground here - just pointing out a post that had little relevance.

Junkyard Tom

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Not sure how they'll ramp up manufacturing to offset what they'll loose through not being able to passport services within the EU

An National Investment Bank for Britain could help make up any shortfall. Can't see the Tories being too receptive to it though.

Junkyard Tom

indioblack wrote: »

No axe being ground here - just pointing out a post that had little relevance.

As I've already explained to you there were many before my post, you honed in on, of little relevance and my post was a response to them.

Enzokk

maryishere wrote: »

No, because having 28 cooks in the kitchen ( and all their hangers on ) means nothing gets done. No trade deal with Canada, even after 7 years of Canada doing its best. No wonder the EU is the slowest growing region in the world.

If trade deals were easy it would be done in a couple of months. This will be the first trade deal with one of the top economies in the world (excluding the intra-EU trade). All the other trade deals will use this one as a starting point of what will be possible and what can be offered. If it takes some more time then so be it, as long as everyone is happy with the deal that is offered. That seems like democracy at work, especially when EU is supposed to be run by the bureaucrats in Brussels where they tell everyone else how they should live their lives.

indioblack

indioblack wrote: »

The Brexit result should focus people on the practical business of exiting the EU and attempting to make a living outside of it.
In this and the last thread, you'll not find me mindlessly defending the UK or it's electorate.

Good. Because with how the Brexit vote turned out and with Trump attempting to get elected next month, 2016 seems to be trying quite hard to be the year of the idiot.

maryishere

Enzokk wrote: »

If trade deals were easy it would be done in a couple of months. This will be the first trade deal with one of the top economies in the world (excluding the intra-EU trade). All the other trade deals will use this one as a starting point of what will be possible and what can be offered.

Wrong. Canada is a G7 nation and is regularly described as a trading nation as its total trade is worth more than two-thirds of its GDP (the second highest level in the G7. Of that total trade, roughly 75% is done with countries which are part of free-trade agreements with Canada, primarily the United States through NAFTA. By the end of 2014, Canada bilateral trade hit C$1 trillion for the first time.
The North American Free Trade Agreement among Canada, the United States, and Mexico came into force on January 1, 1994, creating the largest free-trade region in the world. By 2014, the NAFTA area GDP was estimated to be over C$20 trillion with a market encompassing 474 million people. Building on that success, Canada continues to negotiate and has concluded free-trade agreements with more than 40 countries, most recently with South Korea, which represents Canada's first FTA with a partner in the Asia-Pacific region. As of 2016, Canada has also concluded a trade agreements that is potentially bigger than NAFTA: the twelve-nation Trans-Pacific Partnership.

After 7 years of talks the Canadians have concluded the EU are incompetent messers and cannot agree on anything, and are disgusted at the EU. No wonder the UK wants to leave too. Who would want to be a member of such a rude, ungrateful club as the 27 (who cannot agree about anything) that are left?

Fratton Fred

Enzokk wrote: »

If trade deals were easy it would be done in a couple of months. This will be the first trade deal with one of the top economies in the world (excluding the intra-EU trade). All the other trade deals will use this one as a starting point of what will be possible and what can be offered. If it takes some more time then so be it, as long as everyone is happy with the deal that is offered. That seems like democracy at work, especially when EU is supposed to be run by the bureaucrats in Brussels where they tell everyone else how they should live their lives.

Democracy is further defined as (a) "government by the people; especially : rule of the majority (b) "a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation ...."[2]

Sounds to me as though 27 1/2 member states are being prevented from entering in to an agreement because the remaining 1/2 state doesn't like it. How is that democracy?

maryishere

Not to mention the EU taking 7 years to achieve their failure. At a monstrous cost to the taxpayer.

FrancieBrady

the evasion_kid wrote: »

Yep we've had the economic crisis,mass youth unemployment,austerity(for the little people),countries up to their eyes in debt,the migrant crisis,terror attacks and now brexit....to quote a famous Russian " I've lived in you're future....it doesn't work"

The world had a recession, ISiS is not just attacking the EU, immigrants are not just an EU problem.
Have you a point?

Junkyard Tom

Wallonia [...] called for clarity on safeguards to protect labour, environmental and consumer standards.

bbc.com

Are those not good concerns to be looking for assurances on? Maybe the Wallabyloons are doing the rest of us a favour?

maryishere

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The world had a recession,

Not all of the world since 2007. China has not had one for example, or Australia, or many other countries.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

ISiS is not just attacking the EU,

do you mean its invading the EU as well?

There have been a lot more extremist muslim attacks in the EU ( eg France, Belgium, German) that in Japan or Australia or Canada?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

immigrants are not just an EU problem.

Correct and nobody said they were.

maryishere

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Maybe the Wallabyloons are doing the rest of us a favour?

By depriving everyone else of a Canada - EU trade deal, and wasting everyones time for 7 years?

DEFTLEFTHAND

Were'nt UKIP proposing the same immigration policies as the Labour Parties in Canada and Aus.

Never really got why they're seen as the second coming of the Nazis around here.

Rumpy Pumpy

The Fratton and Tom show is quickly becoming the most tragic outcome for us casual readers of boards.

Junkyard Tom

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

The Fratton and Tom show is quickly becoming the most tragic outcome for us casual readers of boards.

Weird. I actually agree with Fred on quite a lot of stuff (the 'Polish Plumber' effect for example) and find him an awful lot more reasonable than many others here who claim to be fellow Irish.

Iwasfrozen

This thread is well overdue some good news

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/16/theresa-may-plans-for-brexit-trade-deals-with-the-usa-and-austra/

A free trade agreement with the US alone would provide the UK with access to a market larger than the EU.

So much for "back of the queue" looks like the UK is being bumped.

In the weeks since the referendum result, Mike Froman, the US trade representative, has held discussions about a UK-US trade deal with Dr Fox’s predecessor as business secretary, Sajid Javid, and other senior government figures.

Republicans in Congress have also called on President Obama to speed up efforts to reach a trading pact with Britain after the vote for Brexit.

Dr Fox is expected to hold talks with Mr Froman this week before flying to America as early as next weekend.

Speaking in the US, Mr Froman said the terms of any deal between Britain and America would in part depend on the outcome of trade negotiations between Mrs May’s government and the EU. He said Britain was “a very significant part” of why America wanted to strike a free trade partnership with the EU and that Brexit was forcing the White House to reassess the proposed transatlantic trade agreement with Brussels.

tomwaterford

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This thread is well overdue some good news

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/16/theresa-may-plans-for-brexit-trade-deals-with-the-usa-and-austra/

A free trade agreement with the US alone would provide the UK with access to a market larger than the EU.

So much for "back of the queue" looks like the UK is being bumped.

Surly a free trade agreement would decimate it as they couldn't compete on costs/scale In farming or manufacturing sector???


Ie us beef and dairy farming is on a scale that is iNcomprehensiveable to UK farmers??

Same as with car and most other heavy manufacturering industries??

Iwasfrozen

tomwaterford wrote: »

Surly a free trade agreement would decimate it as they couldn't compete on costs/scale In farming or manufacturing sector???


Ie us beef and dairy farming is on a scale that is iNcomprehensiveable to UK farmers??

Same as with car and most other heavy manufacturering industries??

In the short term the UK government is covering all previous EU agricultural payments.

In the long term considering the UK's population density is far higher than the US's it wouldn't be a bad thing to specialize away from agriculture.

Heavy manufacturing is not a big factor of the UK or US economies.

tomwaterford

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Considering the UK's population density is far higher than the US's it wouldn't be a bad thing to specialize away from agriculture.

Heavy manufacturing is not a big factor of the UK or US economies.

So what would this free trade involve??

That the us couldn't free trade with countries nearer to it.....surly it'll be impossible for the UK to undercut Argentina,Mexico,China etc

Though tbf the UK could do free trades with these......unless they are going to slash wages and standred of living....price wise they'll be up against it otherwise????


The eu will odd....is/was keeping an artifical price under everything
(Though I dont fully agree with complete free trade on food-see irish famjne)

Iwasfrozen

tomwaterford wrote: »

So what would this free trade involve??

That the us couldn't free trade with countries nearer to it.....surly it'll be impossible for the UK to undercut Argentina,Mexico,China etc

Though tbf the UK could do free trades with these......unless they are going to slash wages and standred of living....price wise they'll be up against it otherwise????


The eu will odd....is/was keeping an artifical price under everything
(Though I dont fully agree with complete free trade on food-see irish famjne)

Yes but the UK won't be in the EU so those provisions will no longer apply.

My point being the EU is not the be all and end all the US is by itself a larger market than the EU.

I've also seen it raised that the UK could join NAFTA, though I'm not sure if doing so would stop them trading with the EU.

tomwaterford

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes but the UK won't be in the EU so those provisions will no longer apply.

My point being the EU is not the be all and end all the US is by itself a larger market than the EU.

I've also seen it raised that the UK could join NAFTA, though I'm not sure if doing so would stop them trading with the EU.

This is ture....but any money says the propoption of trade the UK deos with the eu won't fall significantly anyway


Too much money to be made etc through it......at the end of the day money talks



Only real change is that they'll have no say in eu trade regulations/standreds.....like they can go on ahead with GM crops (a bit undervalued imo) and beef steroids etc....can trade them internationally (still won't be able to compete internationally mind)

.....but won't be allowed to sell such stuff into the eu.....I wouldn't think these import taxes will realistically amount to anything on either side



>>>>commonsense will prevail

Iwasfrozen

tomwaterford wrote: »

This is ture....but any money says the propoption of trade the UK deos with the eu won't fall significantly anyway


Too much money to be made etc through it......at the end of the day money talks



Only real change is that they'll have no say in eu trade regulations/standreds.....like they can go on ahead with GM crops (a bit undervalued imo) and beef steroids etc....can trade them internationally (still won't be able to compete internationally mind)

.....but won't be allowed to sell such stuff into the eu.....I wouldn't think these import taxes will realistically amount to anything on either side



>>>>commonsense will prevail

A UK with access to both the European and US (and potentially NAFTA) markets would have a big advantage over other European nations confined to the EU market.

Which could in turn lead to other countries breaking away from the EU to secure trade deals with the US.