Budget 2017

nhunter100

bur wrote:

I'll be forever grateful to the dole-heads for saving me the water charge.

600k households refused to pay, 257k on the dole.

The Bishop Basher

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

Taxes are the price you pay for living in the 6th most developed country in the world (http://hdr.undp.org/en/composite/HDI). You have to pay taxes, and in return you get to be free, prosperous, and secure all at once. And people are still moaning.

Well in other countries you tend to get something in return for your taxes..

Things like bin collection, ambulance service, GP and medical care, education, mental health services etc etc etc...

Here we get almost nothing..

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

Facts for themselves. 6th in the UN HDI. Maybe you think there's some other magical country that's way more prosperous, but there isn't.

The top 1% might be prosperous. The vast vast majority aren't.

BoatMad

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

Facts speak for themselves. 6th in the UN HDI. Maybe you think there's some other magical country that's way more prosperous, but there isn't. There also hasn't been a time in the history of mankind that has been this prosperous. Continue feeling sorry by hard done you are, though.

It's known As the " beal boucht" we've institutionalised the poor mouth in this country. You could give some people zero taxes and 100% free services and they'd still complain

Idbatterim

OldNotWIse wrote: »

What do childless people on 30-35k get from this

http://www.thejournal.ie/30000-budget-for-you-3020745-Oct2016/

LegallyAbroad

Swanner wrote: »

Well in other countries you tend to get something in return for your taxes..

Things like bin collection, ambulance service, GP and medical care, education, mental health services etc etc etc...

Here we get almost nothing..



The top 1% might be prosperous. The vast vast majority aren't.

You get all those things in Ireland, other than bin collection. Just not to the level you want. Can you point to you're comparator country that's so great?

FYI if you earn over €30,800 you're in the top 1% globally.

pumpkin4life

BoatMad wrote: »

I know several COs and AOs ( big different in grade there) and they seem hard working , intelligent types. , sure any big organisation has fat, but I don't agree it's all rotten , it's a lazy argument to make , it's makes a good sound bite but has little factual basis

From my experience working in there before, it's bloated and rotten. Most of it is either completely unnecessary (gotta love them pointless meetings) or could be completely automated in something like Python or VBA.

People would not be talking about scroungers as much if they actually saw what an average PS workers day consisted of. You could honestly lose a big chunk of it and SFA would change.

BoatMad

Idbatterim wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/30000-budget-for-you-3020745-Oct2016/

Why should they get anything , they benefit from Usc reductions , first time buyers help ,

So they " get " something.

Mind you budgets are not about what you " get "

BoatMad

pumpkin4life wrote: »

From my experience working in there before, it's bloated and rotten. Most of it is either completely unnecessary (gotta love them pointless meetings) or could be completely automated in something like Python or VBA.

People would not be talking about scroungers as much if they actually saw what an average PS workers day consisted of. You could honestly lose a big chunk of it and SFA would change.

That may have been your experience , in mine , in dealing with the PS over the years. I've found them hard working , intelligent and involved. In sure there are light weights everywhere including many big private companies and the PS

Moo Moo Land

BoatMad wrote: »

I've found them hard working

Yes but only in a work-to-rule way. I worked in the public sector for several years. We worked reasonably hard from 9-5 but never ever went above and beyond unless we got paid overtime. I guess that's the difference with the private sector.

The other difference is that the public sector dossers rarely get disciplined and never get fired. The unions don't let that happen. I also found the public sector managers I worked with to be very very weak, not sure why.

LegallyAbroad

Moo Moo Land wrote: »

Yes but only in a work-to-rule way. I worked in the public sector for several years. We worked reasonably hard from 9-5 but never ever went above and beyond unless we got paid overtime. I guess that's the difference with the private sector.

The other difference is that the public sector dossers rarely get disciplined and never get fired. The unions don't let that happen. I also found the public sector managers I worked with to be very very weak, not sure why.

I work in the private sector. People rarely get disciplined and rarely get fired. Even incompetent staff almost never get fired.

The hours thing is true. You work much, much, much longer hours than you would in (almost all) parts of the public sector. The trade off is job flexibility, progression, and pay (I get paid probably about 33% more in the private sector than I would in the public sector, excluding pension).

The public sector is open to all. If you think it's such an amazing deal, go join it.

jimgoose

BoatMad wrote: »

That may have been your experience , in mine , in dealing with the PS over the years. I've found them hard working , intelligent and involved. In sure there are light weights everywhere including many big private companies and the PS

I find that it depends on which way the money is flowing. For example, the Revenue are among the most pleasant, competent and helpful bunch I've ever encountered. Likewise the Motor Tax people. By contrast, anything to do with social welfare, the HSE or such is like visiting the tenth and eleventh Circles of Hell. :pac:

DARK-KNIGHT

bur wrote: »

I'll be forever grateful to the dole-heads for saving me the water charge.

:rolleyes:

Joshua J

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

You'd swear some people didn't avail of any government services ever, and someone was just robbing them. It genuinely is no wonder that political discourse is a poor as it is.

Like children "Gimme more sweeties, I want to keep all my sweeties" etc., etc.

Taxes are the price you pay for living in the 6th most developed country in the world (http://hdr.undp.org/en/composite/HDI). You have to pay taxes, and in return you get to be free, prosperous, and secure all at once. And people are still moaning.

You know where taxes are really low? Anytime prior to the 20th century and modern day Somaliland. Things didn't work out so well.

You are not free, you have rights. The two are completely different concepts and people conflate them all the time.

MeatTwoVeg

Swanner wrote:

The top 1% might be prosperous. The vast vast majority aren't.

Bull****.

The vast majority of people in this country are very well off.

Try traveling in some less developed corners of the world and you might get some appreciation of that fact.

nhunter100

MeatTwoVeg wrote:

The vast majority of people in this country are very well off.

CSO and OECD disagrees with you but I suppose if we compare ourselves to some poor soul surviving on a dollar a day in Bangladesh we're all minted, if we compare ourselves to the residents of Bel Air in Hollywood it's a different story. See i can do whataboutery too. ;-)

weldoninhio

nhunter100 wrote: »

Not relevant to the question I asked.

You didn't ask a question. You made a statement. I responded to it.

nhunter100

weldoninhio wrote:

You didn't ask a question. You made a statement. I responded to it.

No I asked a question only it wasn't directed to you. You chose to respond to a follow on comment I made.

weldoninhio

Cina wrote: »

We all complain about paying tax on alcohol, don't we?

I've pointed out numerous times in this thread that alcohol is both a greater killer in Ireland than smoking and far, far more expensive to our economy yet every time I do, those who are of the "feck smokers" mentality never seem to have a response to it.

Probably because they drink.

Drinking in moderation won't kill you, won't give you lung cancer, won't affect those in the same room/car as you with second hand alcohol. Smoking at all is damaging to you, and second hand smoke affects anyone around you.

MeatTwoVeg

nhunter100 wrote:

CSO and OECD disagrees with you but I suppose if we compare ourselves to some poor soul surviving on a dollar a day in Bangladesh we're all minted, if we compare ourselves to the residents of Bel Air in Hollywood it's a different story. See i can do whataboutery too. ;-)

You're living in a time and place of unimaginable wealth and personal freedom.
If you're unable to appreciate how lucky you are through an accident of birth, well, I feel kind of sorry for you.

Iwasfrozen

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

You're living in a time and place of unimaginable wealth and personal freedom.
If you're unable to appreciate how lucky you are through an accident of birth, well, I feel kind of sorry for you.

Can we appreciate it and pay less tax?

Or are those things mutually exclusive?

nhunter100

MeatTwoVeg wrote:

You're living in a time and place of unimaginable wealth and personal freedom. If you're unable to appreciate how lucky you are through an accident of birth, well, I feel kind of sorry for you.

The point is its relative, to ones situation. Proverty exists in this country whether you acknowledge that or not is irrelevant. It's a fact.

The Bishop Basher

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

The vast majority of people in this country are very well off.

No they aren't. They're getting by. Just.

Many others are living in abject poverty..

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Try traveling in some less developed corners of the world and you might get some appreciation of that fact.

This isn't some less developed corner of the world although you could be forgiven for thinking it is at times..

Either way, I don't base my expectations on living standards relative to the poorest parts of the developing world. You are free to do so of course but most of us tend to aim a little higher..

legocrazy505

MeatTwoVeg wrote: »

Bull****.

The vast majority of people in this country are very well off.

Try traveling in some less developed corners of the world and you might get some appreciation of that fact.

Define very well off because when I look around I see the vast majority trying to make ends meet every month, rationing out their last 50 in the bank, trying to figure out how on earth will they afford insurance this year etc.

You act like we are living in Dubai or something when this is clearly not the case, open your eyes to what's around you and you might realise we could do be doing way more for parts of the Irish society particularly the middle class who have an extortionate cost of living and get taxed for over 50% of their pay.

Tell someone who can't afford the rent, who can't afford to pay their mortgage, who can't afford to get some new shoes for themselves because of the taxes and bills they have to pay that they are "very well off".

Cina

legocrazy505 wrote: »

Define very well off because when I look around I see the vast majority trying to make ends meet every month, rationing out their last 50 in the bank, trying to figure out how on earth will they afford insurance this year etc.

You act like we are living in Dubai or something when this is clearly not the case, open your eyes to what's around you and you might realise we could do be doing way more for parts of the Irish society particularly the middle class who have an extortionate cost of living and get taxed for over 50% of their pay.

Tell someone who can't afford the rent, who can't afford to pay their mortgage, who can't afford to get some new shoes for themselves because of the taxes and bills they have to pay that they are "very well off".

If you're earning enough to get taxed some of your wages to 50% then you're doing something seriously wrong with your income if you're struggling to make ends meet.

LegallyAbroad

legocrazy505 wrote: »

Define very well off because when I look around I see the vast majority trying to make ends meet every month, rationing out their last 50 in the bank, trying to figure out how on earth will they afford insurance this year etc.

You act like we are living in Dubai or something when this is clearly not the case, open your eyes to what's around you and you might realise we could do be doing way more for parts of the Irish society particularly the middle class who have an extortionate cost of living and get taxed for over 50% of their pay.

Tell someone who can't afford the rent, who can't afford to pay their mortgage, who can't afford to get some new shoes for themselves because of the taxes and bills they have to pay that they are "very well off".

Literally no one gets taxed 50% of their pay.

The Bishop Basher

legocrazy505 wrote: »

Define very well off because when I look around I see the vast majority trying to make ends meet every month, rationing out their last 50 in the bank, trying to figure out how on earth will they afford insurance this year etc.

I think the point he's making is that the majority here should be thankful they're not living in some slum in Haiti or some such place.

And of course they should but it has zero relevance to this discussion.

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

Literally no one gets taxed 50% of their pay.

Income tax.. No..

But factor in every other charge, tax and levy and most of us are paying well over 50%.

Cina

Swanner wrote: »

But factor in every other charge, tax and levy and most of us are paying well over 50%.

You could pretty much say that about every democratic country on earth that isn't Switzerland, a tax haven, or an oil state.

nhunter100

Swanner wrote:

But factor in every other charge, tax and levy and most of us are paying well over 50%.

You're not paying over 50%, seriously stop with that nonsense you lose credibility.

mariaalice

The well off or not is an utterly pointless argument, having said that I come down heavenly on the side that Ireland is a wealthy country and the vast majority are doing fine.

The reason it is a pointless argument is that it too bound up in how people view their situation and not objective reality.

For example I know someone who gets very wound up by the fact they cant take their children on a sun holiday despite both of them working this person is not a moaner but genuinely feels their children are not getting what their children s friends have. It is something about human nature they don't see the comfortable life they have they concentrate on what they cant have.

Thrift and budgeting is a normal part of life.

LegallyAbroad

Swanner wrote: »

But factor in every other charge, tax and levy and most of us are paying well over 50%.

You are really aren't. Makes sense that you're annoyed, though, if you think you're paying that much.