Where would you like to see next LUAS line/extension?

Gazzmonkey

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I do think finishing the Green Line off to Bray would be best value for money.

Nah, it's nice getting on at Brides Glen and having the pick of any seat on the tram. Also, the rich folk of South Dublin likely won't want the undesirables of Bray anywhere near them.

Sure isn't that why the two lines are separate?

strassenwo!f

Stephen15 wrote: »

At peak times the services are full as far as Greystones. That would leave Greystones with hourly service which isint ideal.

I'm afraid I don't understand you. In the scenario I outlined above there would be 3-4 trains southbound from the city to Bray. There are obviously restrictions imposed by the line around Bray Head, but why not continue 2-3 of them around Bray Head, giving a service every 20-30 minutes to Greystones. That should be fine.

Stephen15

Stephen15 wrote: »

To reinterate my point anywhere on the dart, n11 or luas on the southside dosen't need anymore public transport investment for the time being it is by far the best area in the country for public transport. If we had triple or quadruple dart line then certainly have a cherrywood spur it would completely fuuck up rail traffic and the level crossings will be down 75pc of the time.

If this area of the country doesnt need anymore public transport, then Im moving back to Prague, because its pretty crap here in Brides Glen. How do I get to Bray? I walk a kilometre and get the 145, or walk two kilometres and get the dart. Or get the Luas to Stephens green, walk the kilometre to Pearse and get the dart from there. Or just walk the 4 miles.

Good public transport doesnt involve a 1 or 2 kilometre walk in the middle. A network which doesnt connect to each other isnt a network its a bag full of threads. Thats what we have in Dublin. Threads, not a network.

Stephen15

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If this area of the country doesnt need anymore public transport, then Im moving back to Prague, because its pretty crap here in Brides Glen. How do I get to Bray? I walk a kilometre and get the 145, or walk two kilometres and get the dart. Or get the Luas to Stephens green, walk the kilometre to Pearse and get the dart from there. Or just walk the 4 miles.

The 84/a every half hour from Cherrywood.

lucernarian

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I'm afraid I don't understand you. In the scenario I outlined above there would be 3-4 trains southbound from the city to Bray. There are obviously restrictions imposed by the line around Bray Head, but why not continue 2-3 of them around Bray Head, giving a service every 20-30 minutes to Greystones. That should be fine.

With proper signalling and double tracking right to the entrances of the tunnels proper, a 20 minute service is achievable but the current infrastructure at Bray head is far away from managing that.

Banjoxed

Stephen15 wrote: »

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If this area of the country doesnt need anymore public transport, then Im moving back to Prague, because its pretty crap here in Brides Glen. How do I get to Bray? I walk a kilometre and get the 145, or walk two kilometres and get the dart. Or get the Luas to Stephens green, walk the kilometre to Pearse and get the dart from there. Or just walk the 4 miles.

The 84/a every half hour from Cherrywood.

There's your crumbs. Good enough for your foreign notions of integrated transport and Dublin :rolleyes:

Banjoxed

Stephen15 wrote: »

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If this area of the country doesnt need anymore public transport, then Im moving back to Prague, because its pretty crap here in Brides Glen. How do I get to Bray? I walk a kilometre and get the 145, or walk two kilometres and get the dart. Or get the Luas to Stephens green, walk the kilometre to Pearse and get the dart from there. Or just walk the 4 miles.

The 84/a every half hour from Cherrywood.

There's your crumbs. Good enough for your foreign notions of integrated transport and Dublin :rolleyes:

Stephen15

Banjoxed wrote: »

There's your crumbs. Good enough for your foreign notions of integrated transport and Dublin :rolleyes:

Bray isin't even in Dublin.

Alun

Stephen15 wrote: »

Bray isin't even in Dublin.

Actually part of it is Well, County Dublin anyway.

end of the road

Stephen15 wrote: »

Bray isin't even in Dublin.

actually, i believe part of it is in county dublin and is under one of the dublin local authorities.

Alun

end of the road wrote: »

actually, i believe part of it is in dublin and is under one of the dublin local authorities.

Yes, the border with Dun-Laoghaire Rathdown runs through the northern part of Bray.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.2093662,-6.1153324,16.25z?hl=en

afatbollix

A couple of years ago I made a map. Sad I know but a couple of things i would do are:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pfL8qj8-zk-wYXUldeR8QZn-y_I&usp=sharing

Dart to the airport & Swords
Luas to Eastpoint & Fairview
Luas to Clondalkin Rail station.

What needs to be done is interchange between all our public transport. If you look at the map people talk of Bray has the Dart but what about someone who wants to go from Dundrum to Bray?

strassenwo!f

lucernarian wrote: »

With proper signalling and double tracking right to the entrances of the tunnels proper, a 20 minute service is achievable but the current infrastructure at Bray head is far away from managing that.

At the moment there seems to be a DART train to/from Greystones every half hour or so. The suggestion I made above, about a possible DART link between Killiney and Cherrywood, should not affect this: if it were possible to build such a link the number of DARTs along the main body of the southside DART should not be affected, and there would still be, say, four an hour at peak times going to Bray station itself. At present, two of those go around Bray Head - and if that number could be increased, well and good - but the suggestion itself (if it came to pass) would have no effect on the level of Greystones service.

I would think such an arrangement could be very advantageous for the area and the commuters living there or using stations in the area. Denizens of Bray, Greystones and Shankill could take the Bray/Greystones train, while park-and-riders (and Cherrywood workers) could take the Cherrywood train, without trying to force their way to the coast to find parking in an area which is not really designed for this. Anyone in Killiney or further in towards the city could of course take either and would see no difference in service.

Stephen15

Wasn't the orginal plan for 84 to have it run half hourly between Newcastle and Cherrywood via Bray. But then some gob****e local councillor insisted that it run as far as UCD only for it to be merged with the 45. It would be a far straighter and more reliable route if it terminated at Cherrywood along with the plans for the new 7 terminus at Cherrywood.

The 45 was so bad it wasn't even worth replacing. Unreliable and slow did anyone in Bray actually use it. The introduction of the 145 and the 4 means it no longer served a purpose.

AngryLips

Stephen15 wrote: »

Bray isin't even in Dublin.

Didn't you not get the memo? We mean greater Dublin

Sam Russell

Stephen15 wrote: »

Bray isin't even in Dublin.

Some of it is.

strassenwo!f

Philipsburgh Avenue is another one which has often struck me as a road which could be ripe for public transport development in the future. Not for a straightforward LUAS, above ground, as it's a tight space, but maybe for some kind of cut-and-cover arrangement which could largely be done while most of the residents are at work.

This road is almost halfway between the DART and the proposed metro north, and might be used for the LUAS to eventually gain access to streets like the Malahide road and its busy suburbs like Coolock.

Van.Bosch

You're right, it is a busy area which is far from the DART but how could you do cut and cover mainly while people are at work?

BowWow

The Dublin Port Tunnel crosses under Phillipsbugh - you wouldn't want to cut into that either...........

strassenwo!f

Van.Bosch wrote: »

You're right, it is a busy area which is far from the DART but how could you do cut and cover mainly while people are at work?

Yes, that needs to be clarified.

With a road like Philipsburgh Avenue it would be enormously disruptive to build a surface LUAS as the work involved would utterly dominate (ruin, even) the lives of the residents for months on end. A reasonably common cut-and-cover arrangement, however, is to dig up a section of the street, then cover it over to let work continue on the tracks underneath without causing major disruption to the street above. When the first section is finished, the process is repeated through the area in question.

This work would be carried out during working hours for both the residents and the workers on the track, hopefully minimising hassle for both.

BowWow wrote: »

The Dublin Port Tunnel crosses under Phillipsbugh - you wouldn't want to cut into that either...........

Probably not:eek:

MJohnston

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, that needs to be clarified.

With a road like Philipsburgh Avenue it would be enormously disruptive to build a surface LUAS as the work involved would utterly dominate (ruin, even) the lives of the residents for months on end. A reasonably common cut-and-cover arrangement, however, is to dig up a section of the street, then cover it over to let work continue on the tracks underneath without causing major disruption to the street above. When the first section is finished, the process is repeated through the area in question.

This work would be carried out during working hours for both the residents and the workers on the track, hopefully minimising hassle for both.

Not a chance this would avoid disruption - first it's unlikely they'd be able to make enough progress between 9-5 to be able to "close up" the road and resurface again. Secondly, that only accounts for regularly scheduled office workers, what about the school rush and other off-schedule workers?

Having to work to the schedule of locals would probably also result in a hugely expensive construction process too.

But the main question is why Philipsburgh Avenue? Where is it connecting to and from that you want to consider it? It's a street that's barely 1km in length, in an area very well served by the DART already. It's a weird place to be talking about in the context of this thread!

Stephen15

Stephen15 wrote: »

The 84/a every half hour from Cherrywood.

That works well in theory. I have on occasion however stood for 90 minutes waiting for that sodding bus to arrive. Walking to Bray would only take an hour. The 145 is reliable though.

strassenwo!f

MJohnston wrote: »

Not a chance this would avoid disruption - first it's unlikely they'd be able to make enough progress between 9-5 to be able to "close up" the road and resurface again. Secondly, that only accounts for regularly scheduled office workers, what about the school rush and other off-schedule workers?

I'm sorry if that's the picture of construction that I conveyed in my earlier post. That would be impossible.

What I was envisaging was an arrangement where the first, say, 100 metres of the road is subjected to a short period of extensive digging and shoring up of the resulting trench. This trench is then filled with pre-cast concrete units - probably shaped like a very large polo mint - the bits at the side are tidied up and then a new road surface is placed on top of the concrete units. The work of laying the resulting tracks then starts unhindered under the new section of road and while that work is happening the digging, shoring, covering and resurfacing happens on the next 100 metre section, and so on until the process is complete.

This would minimise the disruption suffered by any one section of the road, and by the road as a whole, while construction is happening.

MJohnston wrote: »

Having to work to the schedule of locals would probably also result in a hugely expensive construction process too.

On the contrary. If you look at the surface LUAS works around Dawson Street and Nassau Street, for example, you can see that they are constantly having to rearrange things to take account of the businesses in the area, buses travelling through, pedestrians crossing, etc. In the above scenario the tracklayers and other workers would be pretty much free to work away in peace, under the rebuilt road section, and achieve lots in a normal day.

MJohnston wrote: »

But the main question is why Philipsburgh Avenue? Where is it connecting to and from that you want to consider it? It's a street that's barely 1km in length, in an area very well served by the DART already. It's a weird place to be talking about in the context of this thread!

I agree, the suggestion is not really right for a thread on 'the next LUAS line' as there are definitely other more pressing projects.

My apologies.

(My thinking was based on what might happen at some stage in the future, when other more pressing projects have been built. When the BXD line is well bedded-in and we see how it all works, the section currently being built around Parnell Street might be a useful connection point for a LUAS line to/from Summerhill, Ballybough and eventually the Malahide Road and/or areas between the Malahide Road and the Airport Road, perhaps via Philipsburgh Avenue, the Marino Institute, etc.).

Chivito550

Regarding the LUAS cross city, how fast do people envisage it being? Will it be going painfully slow around corners through the city like at Charlemont to Harcourt? (I've seen trams in Amsterdam absolutely bomb it around corners so not sure why they have to crawl so much here).

Will the LUAS be crawling so slowly towards the Stephens Green stop once it passes the lights at the end of harcourt st (a real pet peeve of mine) or will it stop doing this now that it is no longer the last stop?

How long do we anticipate it will take from Stephens Green to Lower O'Connoll's street stop? I can walk that in 13 minutes so you'd expect no more than 6 on the tram to make it worthwhile.

How long from Stephens Green to new DIT Campus?

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

Regarding the LUAS cross city, how fast do people envisage it being? Will it be going painfully slow around corners through the city like at Charlemont to Harcourt? (I've seen trams in Amsterdam absolutely bomb it around corners so not sure why they have to crawl so much here).

Will the LUAS be crawling so slowly towards the Stephens Green stop once it passes the lights at the end of harcourt st (a real pet peeve of mine) or will it stop doing this now that it is no longer the last stop?

How long do we anticipate it will take from Stephens Green to Lower O'Connoll's street stop? I can walk that in 13 minutes so you'd expect no more than 6 on the tram to make it worthwhile.

How long from Stephens Green to new DIT Campus?

The speed restrictions are there for a reason - to minimise noise disruption to local offices/residents and more importantly safety. That's not going to change. The same kind of restrictions will apply on the various corners en route along the Green Line extension as they do on the existing lines.

The reason trams crawl beyond Harcourt Street heading for St Stephen's Green is that they have to stop at the mandatory stop signal, and the driver must select which setting the points should have before proceeding. A rather important safety procedure, I would suggest. Like all rail systems, LUAS is subject to strict safety rules and regulations. Your pet peeve is something that is there to allow for the service to operate safely. That will no longer apply once the Green Line is extended.

They haven't released stop-to-stop journey times, only the overall journey time of 21 minutes from St Stephen's Green to Broombridge. At a guess though, I'd think it will take 6-8 minutes to get from Broombridge to Broadstone on the segregated alignment, I would say 13-15 minutes to get from Broadstone to St Stephen's Green. That would reflect the fact that it will be on-street, subject to traffic lights, and sharing the space between Dawson Street and College Street with buses and taxis.

lxflyer

lxflyer wrote: »

The speed restrictions are there for a reason - to minimise noise disruption to local offices/residents and more importantly safety. That's not going to change. The same kind of restrictions will apply on the various corners en route along the Green Line extension as they do on the existing lines.

The reason trams crawl beyond Harcourt Street heading for St Stephen's Green is that they have to stop at the mandatory stop signal, and the driver must select which setting the points should have before proceeding. A rather important safety procedure, I would suggest. Like all rail systems, LUAS is subject to strict safety rules and regulations. Your pet peeve is something that is there to allow for the service to operate safely. That will no longer apply once the Green Line is extended.

The reason trams stop at the mandatory stop signal is because of the mandatory stop signal. It doesn't explain Chivitio's pet peeve, of the tram crawling from the stop sign to the Stephens Green stop.

...and the driver must select which setting the points should have before proceeding. A rather important safety procedure, I would suggest.

The driver has to select which setting the points should have? Give me a flipping break. Theres two lines. Is it left or is it right? Lets get out the slide rule to calculate that. If its such an important safety procedure, why isn't it automated?

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

The reason trams stop at the mandatory stop signal is because of the mandatory stop signal. It doesn't explain Chivitio's pet peeve, of the tram crawling from the stop sign to the Stephens Green stop.

The driver has to select which setting the points should have? Give me a flipping break. Theres two lines. Is it left or is it right? Lets get out the slide rule to calculate that. If its such an important safety procedure, why isn't it automated?

Re-read his post. His peeve was that that they crawled from Harcourt Street. Not from the signal, which is between Harcourt Street and the crossover before the stop.

LUAS works on line of sight and the driver selects the point settings. That's standard with these kind of networks. There are very strict rules within this as to how the system operates, and that includes trams coming to a complete stop at the signal before they set the points.

But clearly you know better than the people who operate them.

Chivito550

It's not the slowish journey from Harcourt to the lights at the crossroads at Stephens green that annoys me. It's the fact that after stopping at the lights, the tram crosses the crossroads, then often stops again for whatever reason, before finally crawling to the stephens green stop. This is painfully slow.

Another question: what's the purpose of the tie-in works between red and green lines? Will there be services operating from Broombridge to the Point and from Brides Glen to Tallaght?

lxflyer

lxflyer wrote: »

Re-read his post. His peeve was that that they crawled from Harcourt Street. Not from the signal, which is between Harcourt Street and the crossover before the stop.

I have re-read his post and I know exactly what he means because I have experienced same twice a day for about 2 years. It does crawl along at a snails pace, then it stops at the signal, then it crawls along again until it reaches SSG.

LUAS works on line of sight and the driver selects the point settings. That's standard with these kind of networks. There are very strict rules within this as to how the system operates, and that includes trams coming to a complete stop at the signal before they set the points.

No-one has a problem with the thing coming to a complete stop at the signal. Its it crawling for just shy of a kilometre which is the complaint.

But clearly you know better than the people who operate them.

Theres no need to be like that.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

It's not the slowish journey from Harcourt to the lights at the crossroads at Stephens green that annoys me. It's the fact that after stopping at the lights, the tram crosses the crossroads, then often stops again for whatever reason, before finally crawling to the stephens green stop. This is painfully slow.

Another question: what's the purpose of the tie-in works between red and green lines? Will there be services operating from Broombridge to the Point and from Brides Glen to Tallaght?

I have already explained exactly why the trams stop between the crossroads at the Harcourt Street/Cuffe Street/St Stephen's Green Junction to St Stephens Green stop. But I will do so again in detail. When I mentioned Harcourt Street earlier, I was referring to the junction at Cuffe Street/SSG as per your original post - not Harcourt Stop.

After the trams cross that junction onto St Stephen's Green West, there is a mandatory stop signal located before the crossovers between the two tracks. Having stopped, the tram drivers must then set the points and obtain a proceed aspect from that signal before they can proceed into the stop. As they are going over a crossover, the second point in which is spring operated, there is a reduced speed restriction in place to avoid the trams derailing. This is standard on all rail networks.

That will change after the cross-city line is opened as the crossover will only be used in emergencies only.

Your second question has been done to death on the LUAS BXD thread, having been asked dozens of times. The connections are only for use in emergencies only, for transferring trams between depots. They will not be in daily use. Go and look at the connection at the Marlborough Street/Abbey Street junction and you'll see why - it requires a reversal. There isn't enough space to facilitate better connections within the geometry available.

The two lines will operate separately and passengers requiring a transfer will have to switch between the two stops.

Green Line trams will operate from Brides Glen & Sandyford to Broombridge or will turn right at the top of O'Connell Street and terminate at Parnell Stop and then continue back south.