Where would you like to see next LUAS line/extension?

monument

Luas can't be just seen in the context of mainly off-road routes or the need for metro routes or Dart Underground. Sure, Dart Underground should be built now, but we need to also think long-term.

Look at Amsterdam and many other European cities, on-street trams are not mutually exclusive of underground rail.

I know I'm not making friends with the bus or rail advocates here, but I'd replace the core bus network with trams.

One of the core things I'd look at right now as an after Dart/metro project is an orbital segregated but mostly on-ground Luas route from St Vincent's University Hospital to UCD -- using the eastern bypass reserve -- and onto Dundrum and Tallaght and some form of Metro West.

I'd look to see if there's any speed advantage of using something like the Citadis Dualis tram-train for an orbital route and for Metro North. But I don't have a clue of the extra cost there, so I am just in blue skies thinking there.

And also look at on-street routes with different possable levels of segregation for the former N1, the former N11 and possable upgrades to BRT routes.

nowecant

I think the most important thing right now is to maximise the value from the existing Luas lines.

Extend the Green line North into Finglas and from there possibly north west towards Ballycoolin Industrial Estate. This would be relatively cheep compared to the current Cross City extension as the vast majority of it would be off road.

Also extend it south towards Bray, a no brainer in my opinion.

The red line should also be extended into Irish Town

newacc2015

nowecant wrote: »

I think the most important thing right now is to maximise the value from the existing Luas lines.

Extend the Green line North into Finglas and from there possibly north west towards Ballycoolin Industrial Estate. This would be relatively cheep compared to the current Cross City extension as the vast majority of it would be off road.

Also extend it south towards Bray, a no brainer in my opinion.

The red line should also be extended into Irish Town

Finglas is too low density IMO. The housing wasnt built very efficiently and there is a lot of green spaces etc they makes it even less dense. A park and ride to serve other areas isnt really possible as traffic is a nightmare in Finglas.

Maximising the new green line extension would be converting Glasnevin Industrial Estate into high density housing/office spaces. It is so close to the city but under utilised.

The Red Line should go into Irish Town and extended out to the Old Irish Bottlers site for when that is redeveloped.

nowecant

I agree on converting Dublin Industrial Estate into high density apartments and Offices.

While I agree that Finglas is too low density overall I do not agree that it is too low density not to deserve a Luas extension.

Adding Just 2 - 3 Km of track, 5 - 6 if they could afford it, would between 20,000 - 30,000 people within a 10 minute walk of a lightrail line with direct access to large parts of the city including the city center, central business districts and shopping districts, multiple third level educational institutions, major transportation hubs, and major employment centers.

Looking at the map it seems like there is an almost perfect path for the Luas to cross the Tolka valley, continue towards and into Finglas village and then continue a small distance out the far side (East / North East)

This would have a massive effect on the area. House prices would surge, the area would become far more desirable as a place to live and work. In effect it would be much more benificial than any other package the govermnet could design to help such a disadvantaged areas.

3 - 6 KM of track, maybe slightly more, mostly off road, with two bridges.

Anybody want to guess a price?

I think the cost of Luas Cross City was €368 M for 6 KM in the city centre.

Irish Steve

In terms of Finglas and beyond, a lot will depend on what the politicians decide will happen at the site out at Coolquoy (Thornton Hall) that was earmarked for a new prison. Finglas, Hollystown, the Northern Industrial estates, and the airport from the western side could all do with being better served, the present services are very poor, and it's not a lot further out to Ashbourne, which is the second largest town in Meath, with a huge commute population, and the old N2 is very wide, and level enough to take Luas with very little work required to put in the required tracks and still be able to use the road.

Won't happen though, there's not enough political vision for anything even remotely long term or beneficial in this country, anything that's beyond the next election is kicked into the long grass as soon as it emerges.

beauf

Sound like people want more radial routes just to their specific area. Even where there is a good rail network, or bus route already.

I think we should be thinking more about multi modal transport. Where people instead of driving for an hour straight into heavy traffic. They move sideways to the nearest high capacity high frequency public transport route.

beauf

curiousoranje wrote: »

No more money wasted on Luas extensions would be my preference. The service is already insufferably slow as it is....

I like the Luas. But I think its slow. That said for many there isn't a faster option. But that doesn't mean the Luas is quick.

Charlie19

One should definitely service a route out to the airport.

LionelNashe

What about a Luas in cities outside Dublin? In Ireland, I've only lived in Dublin so I don't have any specific location in mind, but how is the public transport in Cork / Limerick / Drogheda / Galway etc, and would there be any benefit to having Luas there?

BonnieSituation

LionelNashe wrote: »

What about a Luas in cities outside Dublin? In Ireland, I've only lived in Dublin so I don't have any specific location in mind, but how is the public transport in Cork / Limerick / Drogheda / Galway etc, and would there be any benefit to having Luas there?

Good Jesus man no. What benefit would any of those cities receive?

Cork maybe but good luck finding a decent route that isn't politicised into a mess.

I've read through this entire thread and it's just mental some of the suggestions?

Luas to Lucan? Can you imagine that interminable journey?
And I remember there was a madcap idea once (as a money saving exercise) to send the Redline down Kylemore Rd through Ballyfermot and onto Palmerstown and Lucan that way. Rather than a direct route.

How about opening Kishogue train station for starters and giving Foxborough, Griffeen and Moy Glas etc residents a train station that they've had to look at for 7 years unopened.

Railways (light and heavy) only work when they are as direct as possible and as fast as possible.

The next big project that has to be done in Dublin is Dart Underground. Simple as. MN is a boondoggle that can wait.

nowecant

There is also an small argument (very small!) for extending the Redline within Tallaght. Continue it towards Templeogue to eventually connect with the line they have proposed for Harold's Cross/Rathfarnham/Templeogue

Banjoxed

Bus to and from Lucan? Now that is an interminable journey.

Fixed that post.

newacc2015

nowecant wrote: »

I agree on converting Dublin Industrial Estate into high density apartments and Offices.

While I agree that Finglas is too low density overall I do not agree that it is too low density not to deserve a Luas extension.

Adding Just 2 - 3 Km of track, 5 - 6 if they could afford it, would between 20,000 - 30,000 people within a 10 minute walk of a lightrail line with direct access to large parts of the city including the city center, central business districts and shopping districts, multiple third level educational institutions, major transportation hubs, and major employment centers.

Looking at the map it seems like there is an almost perfect path for the Luas to cross the Tolka valley, continue towards and into Finglas village and then continue a small distance out the far side (East / North East)

This would have a massive effect on the area. House prices would surge, the area would become far more desirable as a place to live and work. In effect it would be much more benificial than any other package the govermnet could design to help such a disadvantaged areas.

3 - 6 KM of track, maybe slightly more, mostly off road, with two bridges.

Anybody want to guess a price?

I think the cost of Luas Cross City was €368 M for 6 KM in the city centre.

Finglas will not be an attractive area to live. The houses are simply too small for anyone wanting to live in them. You will not have people choosing Finglas as the new area to live. It isnt close enough to the City like Fatima to be attractive to live in.

There is also the question of whether or not the line will pay for itself. Parts of Finglas have almost 30% unemployment and a lot of OAPs. Does it really make economic sense to provide a Luas to an area where it wouldnt be extreme to say a majority of the user base probably wont pay a cent to use it? Morally is it right to look at it that way? Probably not, but the state has limited funds that it should use to maximise the return

IMO the 250m or so would be better spent on the Dart Underground. There is some hope of a return on it financially and it would serve a higher ridership.

Sam Russell

newacc2015 wrote: »

Finglas will not be an attractive area to live. The houses are simply too small for anyone wanting to live in them. You will not have people choosing Finglas as the new area to live. It isnt close enough to the City like Fatima to be attractive to live in.

There is also the question of whether or not the line will pay for itself. Parts of Finglas have almost 30% unemployment and a lot of OAPs. Does it really make economic sense to provide a Luas to an area where it wouldnt be extreme to say a majority of the user base probably wont pay a cent to use it? Morally is it right to look at it that way? Probably not, but the state has limited funds that it should use to maximise the return

IMO the 250m or so would be better spent on the Dart Underground. There is some hope of a return on it financially and it would serve a higher ridership.

But would the Luas bring more employment opportunities to those currently unemployed?

Would the pattern of public transport usage not be radically different?

Also, could the same not be said about unemployment in Tallaght? Did the Red Line Luas make any real difference?

monument

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Good Jesus man no. What benefit would any of those cities receive?

Cork maybe but good luck finding a decent route that isn't politicised into a mess.

I've read through this entire thread and it's just mental some of the suggestions?

Luas to Lucan? Can you imagine that interminable journey?
And I remember there was a madcap idea once (as a money saving exercise) to send the Redline down Kylemore Rd through Ballyfermot and onto Palmerstown and Lucan that way. Rather than a direct route.

How about opening Kishogue train station for starters and giving Foxborough, Griffeen and Moy Glas etc residents a train station that they've had to look at for 7 years unopened.

Railways (light and heavy) only work when they are as direct as possible and as fast as possible.

The next big project that has to be done in Dublin is Dart Underground. Simple as. MN is a boondoggle that can wait.

The red and green lines are not a success because they get people into the city centre as fast as possible -- they are more attractive and more profitable than bus routes because they are reliable and easy to use and give a high level of service to lots of locations, not just the city centre.

The Lucan Luas routing could be improved on, but it would link people to all sorts of locations in an attractive and sustainable way, and not just the city centre. Locations like education hubs, hospitals, and shopping, both local villages and Liffey Valley. It would put public transport in west Dublin on a footing unimaginable with buses or trains.

Teyla Emmagan

Sam Russell wrote:

Also, could the same not be said about unemployment in Tallaght? Did the Red Line Luas make any real difference?

I don't know about Tallaght, they're mostly working in Tallaght, but I doubt it did anything for employment levels in Goldenbridge and some of the places in the middle. Mostly because people don't want to move there and live there and get the Luas to their job. And no one currently living there pays when they get on. And they're certainly not going into town to work. So it has given fantastic free transport to an area that doesn't pay for itself. I don't think Lucan needs a Luas but if it had one I think it would at least cover its own costs in fares. I know public transport should be for everyone but I do think it should be mostly built to alleviate commuting pressure on people who are actually contributing to the economy.

Brasros

To Carlow

Teyla Emmagan

Brasros wrote:

To Carlow

It'd take about 6 hours!

ED E

Part of the benefit of LUAS is super high frequency. 4 minutes at peak (IIRC?). If extending the green line were to impact frequency I would have to say no way.

Really though Metro North needs to break ground today, that'll have the biggest impact.

magicbastarder

newacc2015 wrote: »

Maximising the new green line extension would be converting Glasnevin Industrial Estate into high density housing/office spaces. It is so close to the city but under utilised.

interesting idea, but unless it's all owned under one ownership, with the potential for the owner to sell it (or a significant proportion of it), i can't see it happening.

magicbastarder

Irish Steve wrote: »

it's not a lot further out to Ashbourne, which is the second largest town in Meath, with a huge commute population, and the old N2 is very wide, and level enough to take Luas with very little work required to put in the required tracks and still be able to use the road.

Won't happen though, there's not enough political vision for anything even remotely long term or beneficial in this country, anything that's beyond the next election is kicked into the long grass as soon as it emerges.

no, the reason it won't happen is that ashbourne is a town with a population of 14,000 people and there's 15km between it and the next nearer town to dublin (finglas).
the cost of building it vs. the benefits is a simple non-starter.

MJohnston

I find the idea that the Luas is slow to be a bit of a fallacy that we've all bought into.

Here's the truth as I see it - it's slow through the city centre, but really quite fast about getting you from the suburbs to the outer areas of the city centre. The DART is slightly faster over the same sorts of distances (eg. Brides Glen to Charlemont in 36 minutes vs Killiney to Grand Canal Dock in 28 minutes), but when the Luas is off-street it is very rapid indeed. Compare the Luas to a bus journey, especially at rush-hour? It's just easily a much quicker service.

So, imo the idea that extending the Luas beyond its 2017 extents would result in tediously long journeys just doesn't hold up - the Broombridge line will not encounter substantial traffic until the city-centre side of the Dominick Street stop, and bear in mind that it's already stated that the Broombridge to Stephen's Green travel time will be 21 minutes - so a good estimate of Broombridge to Dominick St is about 10 minutes. The same journey on the 120 would easily take twice that in light traffic.

Adding a few extra km of track - that will inevitably be off-street - to reach areas of Finglas and further out, would not add significant journey times (I'd estimate about 2.5 minutes per km based on the existing Luas line journey times, but max speed of a tram would be about 1.2 minutes per km) - whereas increasing distance from the city centre on bus journeys doesn't have a linear increase in journey times (ie. the buses are affected by traffic bottlenecks which can actually be *worse* further away from the CC).

And this is just an argument based on journey times - the fact is that a Luas is also always going to be able to implement a much greater frequency than a similar bus service, while also carrying higher numbers of passengers at the same time.

Certainly once you get outside of the M50, the balance tips in favour of bus journeys in terms of speed, which I suppose makes a Luas to Lucan a dubious idea (especially given how high quality the N4 bus corridor is), but I think there are plenty of 'spokes' in the Dublin wheel that could be very well served by Luas routes, and a short extension into Finglas could easily be one of them.

Personally, I'd have an extension sweep down to the east edge of Royal Canal Park, then turn north across the Tolka Valley park, then back east for a bit until that large strip of green land at St Helena's Road, and continuing along through park lands until Wellmount Road, where it could turn east towards the N2, and then using the central reservation all the way out to a large Park and Ride facility just beyond the M50. Not only would this serve the 'low density' housing estates of west Finglas, it'd also be within walking distance of some of the large apartment builds along the Finglas Road, a substantial proportion of Finglas village, and the park and ride would serve a lot of the new builds at Charlestown, Hollywoodrath, and even commuters from Ashbourne and other satellite villages.

I find the idea that the Luas is slow to be a bit of a fallacy that we've all bought into.

Here's the truth as I see it - it's slow through the city centre, but really quite fast about getting you from the suburbs to the outer areas of the city centre. The DART is slightly faster over the same sorts of distances (eg. Brides Glen to Charlemont in 36 minutes vs Killiney to Grand Canal Dock in 28 minutes), but when the Luas is off-street it is very rapid indeed. Compare the Luas to a bus journey, especially at rush-hour? It's just easily a much quicker service.

Speaking as someone who uses the luas from Brides Glen to Charlemont almost everyday I'm calling shenanigans on that 36 minute figure. I've timed it in the past and its been more like 45.

magicbastarder

i've not been out to brides glen on the luas, but stephens green to central park is 25 minutes.
outbound in the morning (so i'm obviously going against the main flow of commuter traffic), most people seem headed for stillorgan, sandyford, or the central park stop.

According to the Luas travel time calculator from Central Park to Brides Glen is 15 minutes 30 Seconds.

The same calculator says from Charlemont to SSG is 3 minutes. Next time I'm on it I'll time that, but I reckon it would be closer to double that.

MJohnston

I was using Google Maps' public transport calculator, which I suspect is based on real data.

But it's kind of besides the point - would you argue my assertion that off-street Luas is meaningfully faster than a Dublin Bus travelling along a similar route?

Is the Luas faster than the Bus on the same (theoretical)route? Yes of course it is, but at approximately 24 kilometres per hour that doesnt make the Luas fast either.

Edit: reread your post. Is it faster? Yes. Is it meaningfully faster. Not really.

magicbastarder

MJohnston wrote: »

But it's kind of besides the point - would you argue my assertion that off-street Luas is meaningfully faster than a Dublin Bus travelling along a similar route?

i live near DCU, and work in leopardstown; i have an option of getting the 11 from very near the house out to sandyford. i wouldn't do it if you paid me to; the 11 - which goes through ranelagh, to be fair, takes *far* longer than the luas (double the time, at a guess), especially during school term.
i get the bus into the city centre (often the 11) and the luas out.

Carawaystick

The Luas mightnt be fast, but it is speed....

I'll get me coat

ED E

Deleted User wrote: »

Edit: reread your post. Is it faster? Yes. Is it meaningfully faster. Not really.

Depends where you get on. Try Milltown or Windy Arbour to the green at 8AM. Approx half the journey time and higher frequency.