Where would you like to see next LUAS line/extension?

Zipppy

If we were lucky enough to get another line or an extension where would you like to see it?
I've heard extension of xcity to Finglas could be a runner...would chapelizod /lucan be better?

n97 mini

Zipppy wrote: »

If we were lucky enough to get another line or an extension where would you like to see it?
I've heard extension of xcity to Finglas could be a runner...would chapelizod /lucan be better?

Lucan has a high quality bus lane all the way to the quays, and is lucky enough to have very frequent bus services (25a and b) that bypass Chapelizod (why the much longer 66 or 67 routes weren't chosen to bypass Chapelizod is still a mystery to those of us that use them), so no I think Lucan is well enough served.

I would prefer to see some sort of orbital service, bus or tram, that would mitigate against the An Lár-ism inherent in Dublin's public transport. It'd be nice for those in Lucan not to have to travel to the city centre to go to Tallaght etc etc

hmmm

The North West could do with a line heading somewhere. Blanchardstown/Ongar/Ballyer direction perhaps. The bus strike is really highlighting how bus dependent some areas are.

Lucan is an obvious choice considering the number of people living there. There are some decent bus lanes in that direction, but there are still several chokepoints where buses get caught leading to unpredictable journey times.

Orbital would be great, but perhaps needs to be backed up by good P&R locations.

AngryLips

I'd love to see a George's Street/Capel Street alignment for Luas, with the very original plans for Ballymun luas to be realised

curiousoranje

No more money wasted on Luas extensions would be my preference. The service is already insufferably slow as it is. Proper rail/underground is the only way to go. Now or never.

Luas extensions are just expensive band aids covering the woeful public transport problems in Dublin.

StreetLight

Deedsie wrote: »

Broombridge through Finglas to an M50 adjacent park and ride car park would be a good idea. Couldn't be that expensive, disruption shouldn't be that bad either.

I would go even further, through Ballymun and on to the Airport.

Del.Monte

curiousoranje wrote: »

No more money wasted on Luas extensions would be my preference. The service is already insufferably slow as it is. Proper rail/underground is the only way to go. Now or never.

Luas extensions are just expensive band aids covering the woeful public transport problems in Dublin.

You're just trolling right?

The Green Luas line should continue via the old Harcourt Street alignment and then run parallel to the DART into Bray.

MJohnston

Here's my vague impression of which parts of Dublin and surroundings are covered by what I'd call frequent, high-quality PT services (I'd put Luas and DART in this bucket out of what we have), with the inclusion of the potential electrified Maynooth line (presuming that bumps up frequencies):



Very rough, but the shaded areas are intended to show areas that are within a 15 minute drive of a Park and Ride facility (most of the DART stations, a handful of Luas stations), or within a 15/20 minute walk of the stations of, one of those services. Without the Maynooth line, you can see how dismally served the north west portion of the Dublin area is (even with the addition of that service, very few of the stations offer car parking).

And the problem is that a lot of that land is being developed as new residential areas, without any consideration of how people living there are going to get to work. Thus - housing crisis deepens.

What we need:
+ Metro North, no ifs or buts - Swords isn't shown on my map, but it's outside of any of the catchment areas mentioned.
+ A very short extension of the Luas Green Line (could probably do with a renaming to a new line colour for the northern half if this happened) from Broombridge through Finglas, heading up along Cappagh Road just past the M50, and then ending in a massive Park and Ride facility at Blanchardstown.
+ Maynooth DART and provision of actual Park and Ride facilities along this line (at the very least sharing with the Blanchardstown Luas PNR mentioned above)

Nice to have:
+ Luas Lucan to cover the 9 o'clock gap in the 'clockface'.
+ Something for Terenure and the R114/115 corridor.

curiousoranje

Del.Monte wrote: »

You're just trolling right?

The Green Luas line should continue via the old Harcourt Street alignment and then run parallel to the DART into Bray.

Not trolling at all. Have had to take Luas from The Square Tallaght-Connolly every day of this bus strike so far and I find it irritatingly slow. It never gets going. It is a poor, ham fisted choice for connecting outer suburbs like Tallaght, Lucan etc to City Centre. Luas to Airport as someone suggested would be even worse.

n97 mini

MJohnston wrote: »

+ Luas Lucan to cover the 9 o'clock gap in the 'clockface'.

You left out the upcoming Phoenix Park tunnel rail services. But as I said above, buses from Lucan running in the N4 only hit lights at Palmerstown and then it's an almost free run as far as the quays. The N4 is the only dual carriage way (with bus lanes) that runs straight into the quays.

Carawaystick

Busses using the M50 only have 3 sets of lights and the toll to get to the quays, and while not dual carriageway, it is S4 to the Quays also.

Dodge

n97 mini wrote: »

You left out the upcoming Phoenix Park tunnel rail services. But as I said above, buses from Lucan running in the N4 only hit lights at Palmerstown and then it's an almost free run as far as the quays. The N4 is the only dual carriage way (with bus lanes) that runs straight into the quays.

In the mornings, it's an hour from Lucan into the quays.

Lights or not, an alternative would be used

Shedite27

Metro North.
Elctrification of the Maynooth line and rebrand it the "Dart".
Then create a spur line from the Dart north to go into Swords.
Then the luas Line E (Terenure) & F (Lucan) from the plans

n97 mini

Dodge wrote: »

In the mornings, it's an hour from Lucan into the quays.

Lights or not, an alternative would be used

The Palmerstown lights really should be done away with.

On the plus side, for those within the catchment area Adamstown to Heuston is very quick, sometimes less than 20 mins. Free parking at Adamstown too.

Banjoxed

Extending the Luas to Bray from Brides Glen is an easy build as the detailed design work has already been done. For those having a mickey fit about long tram routes it will serve a distinct market from North Wicklow to Sandyford and Dundrum.

end of the road

Del.Monte wrote: »

You're just trolling right?

The Green Luas line should continue via the old Harcourt Street alignment and then run parallel to the DART into Bray.

no no . wait until the infrastructure needs replacing, rip it up, re-instate a heavy rail line, and undo the wrong that was allowed to happen when the original line (whatever about being closed) was completely destroyed. more chance of me becoming taoiseach then that happening though. would require a bit of demolition but would be worth it.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Here's my vague impression of which parts of Dublin and surroundings are covered by what I'd call frequent, high-quality PT services (I'd put Luas and DART in this bucket out of what we have), with the inclusion of the potential electrified Maynooth line (presuming that bumps up frequencies):



Very rough, but the shaded areas are intended to show areas that are within a 15 minute drive of a Park and Ride facility (most of the DART stations, a handful of Luas stations), or within a 15/20 minute walk of the stations of, one of those services. Without the Maynooth line, you can see how dismally served the north west portion of the Dublin area is (even with the addition of that service, very few of the stations offer car parking).

And the problem is that a lot of that land is being developed as new residential areas, without any consideration of how people living there are going to get to work. Thus - housing crisis deepens.

What we need:
+ Metro North, no ifs or buts - Swords isn't shown on my map, but it's outside of any of the catchment areas mentioned.
+ A very short extension of the Luas Green Line (could probably do with a renaming to a new line colour for the northern half if this happened) from Broombridge through Finglas, heading up along Cappagh Road just past the M50, and then ending in a massive Park and Ride facility at Blanchardstown.
+ Maynooth DART and provision of actual Park and Ride facilities along this line (at the very least sharing with the Blanchardstown Luas PNR mentioned above)

Nice to have:
+ Luas Lucan to cover the 9 o'clock gap in the 'clockface'.
+ Something for Terenure and the R114/115 corridor.

Good map but it would be worth seeing separate walking and driving maps. Many people don't have the option to drive so a walking map would be good. That would make the coverage a lot narrower.

And surely at least some of the N11 corridor should be included? Continuous bus lanes with probably the highest frequency bus services of any corridor?

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

Good map but it would be worth seeing separate walking and driving maps. Many people don't have the option to drive so a walking map would be good. That would make the coverage a lot narrower.

And surely at least some of the N11 corridor should be included? Continuous bus lanes with probably the highest frequency bus services of any corridor?

I shaded a walking distance on each route, you can see it as the more opaque shaded areas closer into the lines.

Not very familiar with the N11 bus service though it wouldn't really change the map much as that area is under the DART line area shaded for park and ride (which unfortunately you can barely see).

IE 222

The final piece missing in luas at the moment is rail connection. Broombridge is a start but more Dart construction needs to take place and then fill in the blanks with Luas.

Do away with this Metro idea altogether, every other country I know of runs airport services into there current rail network and not a separate unit. What good is metro that just stops in the city. Use dart and connect into current network. With Dart Underground and some sort of connection on the Metro alignment serving swords it will open up the whole rail system with limited mode changes.

I think an express Luas line could go through the phoenix park (cut out many stops) and branch one line to Lucan and a second to Blancardstown from Connolly.

Jamie2k9

Any further Luas lines need to have additional lines into the city center and not continuing to pile more trams onto existing networks. Should be no more routes linked onto any station between CC and Sandyford and James. By all means use existing lines further out.

I do think finishing the Green Line off to Bray would be best value for money.

markpb

IE 222 wrote:

Do away with this Metro idea altogether, every other country I know of runs airport services into there current rail network and not a separate unit.

Madrid airport is served by metro to the city centre. The airport served 48 million passengers last year so it seems to be doing okay.

Luas carries the same number of passengers as Dart and connects to the dart and intercity rail network so I don't see why you consider it a separate unit.

feargale

n97 mini wrote: »

I would prefer to see some sort of orbital service, bus or tram, that would mitigate against the An Lár-ism inherent in Dublin's public transport. It'd be nice for those in Lucan not to have to travel to the city centre to go to Tallaght etc etc

That would be eminently possible if when building the M50 they had left a hole in the middle of it to accomodate a future metro. But that couldn't be done because a future government might get the credit.

trellheim

Nice map.

Perhaps a steam tram out to Blessington from Terenure ( rats where's my time machine ) but I take the point.

Very little room to stick a tram line templeogue/terenure into town without huge disruption and cutting into a bunch of important bus lanes

As for a DART Spur you'd need a savage re-engineering of the Northern line to fit the services in for it to make it better than the bus.

MN recognized that Swords needs to be served as well so its actually correct to be metro !

Fastpud

Here is something I did a few years back - it shows all current rail lines & Luas routes and any planned or proposed lines. Just updated it to include Luas Crosscity. You need google earth installed, launch google earth and then just file open and select the Dublin rail.KMZ from where you saved it

n97 mini

markpb wrote: »

Madrid airport is served by metro to the city centre. The airport served 48 million passengers last year so it seems to be doing okay.

Luas carries the same number of passengers as Dart and connects to the dart and intercity rail network so I don't see why you consider it a separate unit.

Some airports in the US are served by on-street metro networks, e.g. Salt Lake City's TRAX. The airport serves about 22 million passengers a year so is close to Dublin in size. The TRAX also has extensive P+R carparks, and all are free. They recently introduced unlimited stay parking to encourage people to park up and get the train to the airport. That's what happens when you have joined up thinking.

IE 222

markpb wrote: »

Madrid airport is served by metro to the city centre. The airport served 48 million passengers last year so it seems to be doing okay.

Luas carries the same number of passengers as Dart and connects to the dart and intercity rail network so I don't see why you consider it a separate unit.

You're right and so does London and a few others but they also have a full Metro or Tube network in place. We don't, the Dart is are answer to Metro or Tube netwok but instead we purpose building one seprate line between swords and St. Stephens Green requiring more mode changes. It will be only built and we start talking having to extend it.

They Connect in 2 places currently on the same lines. I wouldn't call that opening up or connecting the whole city. Look at Madrid as you suggest and see how many different lines connect together and connect numerous times in different locations.

IE 222

trellheim wrote: »

Nice map.

Perhaps a steam tram out to Blessington from Terenure ( rats where's my time machine ) but I take the point.

Very little room to stick a tram line templeogue/terenure into town without huge disruption and cutting into a bunch of important bus lanes

As for a DART Spur you'd need a savage re-engineering of the Northern line to fit the services in for it to make it better than the bus.

MN recognized that Swords needs to be served as well so its actually correct to be metro !

Terenure Luas will never happen overground. To expensive and requires an awful lot CPOs and other land purchases in some of the most expensive parts of the city. More chance of it running underground if anything. Maybe if tunnelling of Dart and airport / Swords takes place it may not be seen as such of non runner cost wise.

Northern line needs upgrading without the spur been added so would be cost effective including a spur with these works. The spur needs to serve Swords as well.

trellheim

This is why the Sunday Times article today "only 200 million for the Airport spur" needs to be treated as the complete poo it is and just spoiling by IE

MN must go ahead and capital funding plans must start putting capex plans in place for it. Interesting to see the budget in a few weeks cos Dublin Airport needs it .

Sam Russell

trellheim wrote: »

This is why the Sunday Times article today "only 200 million for the Airport spur" needs to be treated as the complete poo it is and just spoiling by IE

MN must go ahead and capital funding plans must start putting capex plans in place for it. Interesting to see the budget in a few weeks cos Dublin Airport needs it .

Even if they started construction on MN in the near future, it would take several years (4 or 5) before you could travel from SSG to the airport. Aside from the planning for the Clongriffin spur, it could be built in a year or so from start of construction.

The spur does not preclude MN, it is the politics of the issue that does that.

markpb

Sam Russell wrote:

The spur does not preclude MN, it is the politics of the issue that does that.

Is there a thing more likely to block a large infrastructure spend than politics?

Sam Russell

markpb wrote: »

Is there a thing more likely to block a large infrastructure spend than politics?

Yes, vested interest.

DAA want revenue from car parks and charges for bus and coach stands. Politicians look for support from their own NIMBYs. Politicians also want to push their own parish pump, and there are more parish pumps in rural Ireland than in Dublin, so Luas for Dungarvin and Caherciveen and Motorways from Tuam to Foxford.

Dublin requires substantial investment in public transport - and not just a fleet of shiny blue double-deckers.

monument

Luas can't be just seen in the context of mainly off-road routes or the need for metro routes or Dart Underground. Sure, Dart Underground should be built now, but we need to also think long-term.

Look at Amsterdam and many other European cities, on-street trams are not mutually exclusive of underground rail.

I know I'm not making friends with the bus or rail advocates here, but I'd replace the core bus network with trams.

One of the core things I'd look at right now as an after Dart/metro project is an orbital segregated but mostly on-ground Luas route from St Vincent's University Hospital to UCD -- using the eastern bypass reserve -- and onto Dundrum and Tallaght and some form of Metro West.

I'd look to see if there's any speed advantage of using something like the Citadis Dualis tram-train for an orbital route and for Metro North. But I don't have a clue of the extra cost there, so I am just in blue skies thinking there.

And also look at on-street routes with different possable levels of segregation for the former N1, the former N11 and possable upgrades to BRT routes.

nowecant

I think the most important thing right now is to maximise the value from the existing Luas lines.

Extend the Green line North into Finglas and from there possibly north west towards Ballycoolin Industrial Estate. This would be relatively cheep compared to the current Cross City extension as the vast majority of it would be off road.

Also extend it south towards Bray, a no brainer in my opinion.

The red line should also be extended into Irish Town

newacc2015

nowecant wrote: »

I think the most important thing right now is to maximise the value from the existing Luas lines.

Extend the Green line North into Finglas and from there possibly north west towards Ballycoolin Industrial Estate. This would be relatively cheep compared to the current Cross City extension as the vast majority of it would be off road.

Also extend it south towards Bray, a no brainer in my opinion.

The red line should also be extended into Irish Town

Finglas is too low density IMO. The housing wasnt built very efficiently and there is a lot of green spaces etc they makes it even less dense. A park and ride to serve other areas isnt really possible as traffic is a nightmare in Finglas.

Maximising the new green line extension would be converting Glasnevin Industrial Estate into high density housing/office spaces. It is so close to the city but under utilised.

The Red Line should go into Irish Town and extended out to the Old Irish Bottlers site for when that is redeveloped.

nowecant

I agree on converting Dublin Industrial Estate into high density apartments and Offices.

While I agree that Finglas is too low density overall I do not agree that it is too low density not to deserve a Luas extension.

Adding Just 2 - 3 Km of track, 5 - 6 if they could afford it, would between 20,000 - 30,000 people within a 10 minute walk of a lightrail line with direct access to large parts of the city including the city center, central business districts and shopping districts, multiple third level educational institutions, major transportation hubs, and major employment centers.

Looking at the map it seems like there is an almost perfect path for the Luas to cross the Tolka valley, continue towards and into Finglas village and then continue a small distance out the far side (East / North East)

This would have a massive effect on the area. House prices would surge, the area would become far more desirable as a place to live and work. In effect it would be much more benificial than any other package the govermnet could design to help such a disadvantaged areas.

3 - 6 KM of track, maybe slightly more, mostly off road, with two bridges.

Anybody want to guess a price?

I think the cost of Luas Cross City was €368 M for 6 KM in the city centre.

Irish Steve

In terms of Finglas and beyond, a lot will depend on what the politicians decide will happen at the site out at Coolquoy (Thornton Hall) that was earmarked for a new prison. Finglas, Hollystown, the Northern Industrial estates, and the airport from the western side could all do with being better served, the present services are very poor, and it's not a lot further out to Ashbourne, which is the second largest town in Meath, with a huge commute population, and the old N2 is very wide, and level enough to take Luas with very little work required to put in the required tracks and still be able to use the road.

Won't happen though, there's not enough political vision for anything even remotely long term or beneficial in this country, anything that's beyond the next election is kicked into the long grass as soon as it emerges.

beauf

Sound like people want more radial routes just to their specific area. Even where there is a good rail network, or bus route already.

I think we should be thinking more about multi modal transport. Where people instead of driving for an hour straight into heavy traffic. They move sideways to the nearest high capacity high frequency public transport route.

beauf

curiousoranje wrote: »

No more money wasted on Luas extensions would be my preference. The service is already insufferably slow as it is....

I like the Luas. But I think its slow. That said for many there isn't a faster option. But that doesn't mean the Luas is quick.

Charlie19

One should definitely service a route out to the airport.

LionelNashe

What about a Luas in cities outside Dublin? In Ireland, I've only lived in Dublin so I don't have any specific location in mind, but how is the public transport in Cork / Limerick / Drogheda / Galway etc, and would there be any benefit to having Luas there?

BonnieSituation

LionelNashe wrote: »

What about a Luas in cities outside Dublin? In Ireland, I've only lived in Dublin so I don't have any specific location in mind, but how is the public transport in Cork / Limerick / Drogheda / Galway etc, and would there be any benefit to having Luas there?

Good Jesus man no. What benefit would any of those cities receive?

Cork maybe but good luck finding a decent route that isn't politicised into a mess.

I've read through this entire thread and it's just mental some of the suggestions?

Luas to Lucan? Can you imagine that interminable journey?
And I remember there was a madcap idea once (as a money saving exercise) to send the Redline down Kylemore Rd through Ballyfermot and onto Palmerstown and Lucan that way. Rather than a direct route.

How about opening Kishogue train station for starters and giving Foxborough, Griffeen and Moy Glas etc residents a train station that they've had to look at for 7 years unopened.

Railways (light and heavy) only work when they are as direct as possible and as fast as possible.

The next big project that has to be done in Dublin is Dart Underground. Simple as. MN is a boondoggle that can wait.

nowecant

There is also an small argument (very small!) for extending the Redline within Tallaght. Continue it towards Templeogue to eventually connect with the line they have proposed for Harold's Cross/Rathfarnham/Templeogue

Banjoxed

Bus to and from Lucan? Now that is an interminable journey.

Fixed that post.

newacc2015

nowecant wrote: »

I agree on converting Dublin Industrial Estate into high density apartments and Offices.

While I agree that Finglas is too low density overall I do not agree that it is too low density not to deserve a Luas extension.

Adding Just 2 - 3 Km of track, 5 - 6 if they could afford it, would between 20,000 - 30,000 people within a 10 minute walk of a lightrail line with direct access to large parts of the city including the city center, central business districts and shopping districts, multiple third level educational institutions, major transportation hubs, and major employment centers.

Looking at the map it seems like there is an almost perfect path for the Luas to cross the Tolka valley, continue towards and into Finglas village and then continue a small distance out the far side (East / North East)

This would have a massive effect on the area. House prices would surge, the area would become far more desirable as a place to live and work. In effect it would be much more benificial than any other package the govermnet could design to help such a disadvantaged areas.

3 - 6 KM of track, maybe slightly more, mostly off road, with two bridges.

Anybody want to guess a price?

I think the cost of Luas Cross City was €368 M for 6 KM in the city centre.

Finglas will not be an attractive area to live. The houses are simply too small for anyone wanting to live in them. You will not have people choosing Finglas as the new area to live. It isnt close enough to the City like Fatima to be attractive to live in.

There is also the question of whether or not the line will pay for itself. Parts of Finglas have almost 30% unemployment and a lot of OAPs. Does it really make economic sense to provide a Luas to an area where it wouldnt be extreme to say a majority of the user base probably wont pay a cent to use it? Morally is it right to look at it that way? Probably not, but the state has limited funds that it should use to maximise the return

IMO the 250m or so would be better spent on the Dart Underground. There is some hope of a return on it financially and it would serve a higher ridership.

Sam Russell

newacc2015 wrote: »

Finglas will not be an attractive area to live. The houses are simply too small for anyone wanting to live in them. You will not have people choosing Finglas as the new area to live. It isnt close enough to the City like Fatima to be attractive to live in.

There is also the question of whether or not the line will pay for itself. Parts of Finglas have almost 30% unemployment and a lot of OAPs. Does it really make economic sense to provide a Luas to an area where it wouldnt be extreme to say a majority of the user base probably wont pay a cent to use it? Morally is it right to look at it that way? Probably not, but the state has limited funds that it should use to maximise the return

IMO the 250m or so would be better spent on the Dart Underground. There is some hope of a return on it financially and it would serve a higher ridership.

But would the Luas bring more employment opportunities to those currently unemployed?

Would the pattern of public transport usage not be radically different?

Also, could the same not be said about unemployment in Tallaght? Did the Red Line Luas make any real difference?

monument

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Good Jesus man no. What benefit would any of those cities receive?

Cork maybe but good luck finding a decent route that isn't politicised into a mess.

I've read through this entire thread and it's just mental some of the suggestions?

Luas to Lucan? Can you imagine that interminable journey?
And I remember there was a madcap idea once (as a money saving exercise) to send the Redline down Kylemore Rd through Ballyfermot and onto Palmerstown and Lucan that way. Rather than a direct route.

How about opening Kishogue train station for starters and giving Foxborough, Griffeen and Moy Glas etc residents a train station that they've had to look at for 7 years unopened.

Railways (light and heavy) only work when they are as direct as possible and as fast as possible.

The next big project that has to be done in Dublin is Dart Underground. Simple as. MN is a boondoggle that can wait.

The red and green lines are not a success because they get people into the city centre as fast as possible -- they are more attractive and more profitable than bus routes because they are reliable and easy to use and give a high level of service to lots of locations, not just the city centre.

The Lucan Luas routing could be improved on, but it would link people to all sorts of locations in an attractive and sustainable way, and not just the city centre. Locations like education hubs, hospitals, and shopping, both local villages and Liffey Valley. It would put public transport in west Dublin on a footing unimaginable with buses or trains.

Teyla Emmagan

Sam Russell wrote:

Also, could the same not be said about unemployment in Tallaght? Did the Red Line Luas make any real difference?

I don't know about Tallaght, they're mostly working in Tallaght, but I doubt it did anything for employment levels in Goldenbridge and some of the places in the middle. Mostly because people don't want to move there and live there and get the Luas to their job. And no one currently living there pays when they get on. And they're certainly not going into town to work. So it has given fantastic free transport to an area that doesn't pay for itself. I don't think Lucan needs a Luas but if it had one I think it would at least cover its own costs in fares. I know public transport should be for everyone but I do think it should be mostly built to alleviate commuting pressure on people who are actually contributing to the economy.

Brasros

To Carlow

Teyla Emmagan

Brasros wrote:

To Carlow

It'd take about 6 hours!

ED E

Part of the benefit of LUAS is super high frequency. 4 minutes at peak (IIRC?). If extending the green line were to impact frequency I would have to say no way.

Really though Metro North needs to break ground today, that'll have the biggest impact.

magicbastarder

newacc2015 wrote: »

Maximising the new green line extension would be converting Glasnevin Industrial Estate into high density housing/office spaces. It is so close to the city but under utilised.

interesting idea, but unless it's all owned under one ownership, with the potential for the owner to sell it (or a significant proportion of it), i can't see it happening.