Electric bike - see mode note post #298

Weepsie

If people want an ebike, they will have to stomach the extra cost themselves, just like I will have to stomach the extra 1-2 k to get something with Di2 or SRAM red on the scheme if I wanted.

the current one, while not perfect, is already abused enough, so going that way it would be open to all other types of scams. It's also been very successful and cycling has increased quite a lot since it's inception.

Anyway, there's an entire thread on the topic https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056382170#

Weepsie

Weepsie wrote: »

If people want an ebike, they will have to stomach the extra cost themselves, just like I will have to stomach the extra 1-2 k to get something with Di2 or SRAM red on the scheme if I wanted.

the current one, while not perfect, is already abused enough, so going that way it would be open to all other types of scams. It's also been very successful and cycling has increased quite a lot since it's inception.

Anyway, there's an entire thread on the topic https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056382170#

I think it should be given as grant then people can put the money towards whatever bike they want. Ebikes will encourage a lot more people to cycle and get out of cars and greatly imrove fitness but the current cost is too high for many people.

CramCycle

Deleted User wrote: »

The thing is that if they give 50% off off 1000 why not just give people the 500 Euro's to put towards what they want ? I don't get the cap of 1000 while I agree it will buy a decent bike it will not buy a decent electric bike for instance, not even close so to give incentive for people to get out of cars and buy electric bikes this cap should be eliminated.

There isn't a cap as such, you only get the tax break on the first 1000, you can top that up with the shop yourself or your company can do it as a form if BIK. Unless they have a specific rule that stops you in your company, the bike can be as expensive as you want.

CramCycle

CramCycle wrote: »

There isn't a cap as such, you only get the tax break on the first 1000, you can top that up with the shop yourself or your company can do it as a form if BIK. Unless they have a specific rule that stops you in your company, the bike can be as expensive as you want.

Ok thanks for that.

Tenzor07

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it should be given as grant then people can put the money towards whatever bike they want. Ebikes will encourage a lot more people to cycle and get out of cars and MILDLY improve fitness but the current cost is too high for many people.

Caught a mistake there....

beauf

I think you are under estimating the value of light exercise to those with problems. For many it's life changing.

Thinkingaboutit

Regular light exercise really can be life changing, health restoring. E bike pedalling is a nice example.

snowstreams

Ive a sedentary job & dont get much exercise during the week, so any bit of pedaling would be very beneficial for me.
Its a 22 mile round trip for me to work with a few hills.

I see a good few bosch bikes for around 1800 or so.
They have torque sensors in them, so should work quite well.

Weepsie

Weepsie wrote: »

the current one, while not perfect, is already abused enough, so going that way it would be open to all other types of scams. It's also been very successful and cycling has increased quite a lot since it's inception.

Abused :eek:

you mean by people who use the scheme and work from home

magicbastarder

is it just lack of volume keeping prices up?
i mean, my mother has just bought a new car for about the price of six electric bikes. (that's a guess, i'm not sure what she paid).

Tenzor07

beauf wrote: »

I think you are under estimating the value of light exercise to those with problems. For many it's life changing.

Who me?

Not at all, you read that wrong, I just changed greatly to mildly... still exercise, different effort levels..

I lost 20 Kg on my MAC motor ebike, people were actually laughing at me when they saw me on an electric bike, all I could hear was what's the point if you're not going to peddle you'll only get fatter etc etc but they weren't laughing when I lost just over 20 Kg in about 3 months !

I need to get out and loose a tonne more weight but sadly I don't have the time as I used to working horrible shifts and when I'm off I got my two Small Boys as my Partner works too , but have to get out and do it this year.

People were actually asking me how did you loose all that weight on a bike with a motor ? and I said because I used it when I needed it, it gave me incentive to get out , go hilly routes and peddle as hard as I can and used the motor for a few bursts when I got tired.

Turn the clock forward and I got the Bosch now, 50 Nm of torque is enough in pretty much all circumstances but only with the correct gearing, my bike has a gear hum called Sram Dual Drive 3 and it provided the gearing necessary to climb walls if you must. I got up about 23% or more grade up Mount Leinster to the RTE Mast but it was a devil even with the Bosch.

More power is always good for the simple reason being that if like me you have dodgy knees there is only so much I can tolerate for a certain length of time and hills are a killer more power means you can get up those hills with less strain because make no mistake , the cycling purists here will tell you 250 watts, 50 nm torque is plenty what more do you want ? etc etc but that's all well and good if you're fit as a fiddle and climb the Wicklow Mountains ( hills ) once a week or more comfortably , most of us can't.

The cheaper ebikes might lack the gearing required to climb steep hills and the give away sings there will be the motor stalling or close to stalling on steep climbs where my bike won't because it's got the gearing that will allow you climb pretty much anything.

Sram no longer produce geared hubs but plenty do however hub ( gears ) are a dying breed on ebikes and a lot of them come with a much larger rear cassette which has all the gearing you need but if your Bosch has only a 7-9 speed cassette then I don;t think that will be enough for the really steep stuff but probably is fine for most situations.

I believe I took My Partners Mothers Raleigh 1st Gen Bosch up a 15% grade without much difficulty which only had a rear 9 speed cassette so I reckon it will be fine for most people.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

is it just lack of volume keeping prices up?
i mean, my mother has just bought a new car for about the price of six electric bikes. (that's a guess, i'm not sure what she paid).

No It's demand that is keeping prices up and usually the bikes themselves are a much higher quality than I think most people would pay for a bike in the first place without the motor, battery etc.

I think I read somewhere a few years back, maybe 5, that there were more electric bikes sold in Europe than cars that particular year and it makes sense, 3 quarters of a Billion people and a lot of them can't have cars or afford cars.

The Irish climate does not encourage a lot of people out of cars even if we had the best cycle lanes in the World and that is a huge issue the climate is for the most part too cold, wet , total Cloud cover 50-70% of the year and it's just downright depressing so a lot of people will never commute by bike.

Electric bikes though are encouraging more to get out of cars and they will pay because the cost of a 3-4 K Ebike is nothing compared to the cost of running a car especially depreciation. In the first year of depreciation alone that would pay for the bike.

Dublin City could do much more to encourage cars off the road for instance there are far too few pedestrian areas, and there are hundreds of side roads that could be for cycling, walking etc.

Sadly though Dublin is decades behind most developed countries with regard to Proper Public infrastructure and this is the real issue for car owners myself included and the more traffic restrictions in Dublin city the less desire I have to travel there and spend money !

Ferris

snowstreams wrote: »

Ive a sedentary job & dont get much exercise during the week, so any bit of pedaling would be very beneficial for me.
Its a 22 mile round trip for me to work with a few hills.

I see a good few bosch bikes for around 1800 or so.
They have torque sensors in them, so should work quite well.

I have a Bosch powered ebike and have done 13000kms on it in the last year and a bit. My commute is 19miles with a steep hill section at one end. The bike has been totally reliable thus far.

Your commute is doable with the larger Bosch battery (powerpack 500), you should get there and back on a charge, you're better with a larger battery as capacity drops off with use and age. If you were stuck you can charge in work also, I charge mine under my desk as the battery is removable.

Worth realizing that the motor assistance drops off above 25kph. Ebikes can be dogs above this limit, the bikes are heavy, upright riding positions induce a lot of wind resistance and some motors (bosch performance line/CX) create quite a bit of drag. If you are able to regularly exceed 25kph on a bike an ebike might not be for you. I have heard that the gen 3 bosch motors are not as draggy however but that the minimum is the active line plus if you want to do hills regularly. The big plus of ebikes in my view is that they will go through anything in terms of headwinds and hills.

In terms of bikes and cost I have found that I have added mudguards and bosch battery powered lights to my bike anyway so it might have been better to buy a bike with these already fitted as the integration would be better. Theres an ebike in work that looks great, its a Sinus and it seems to have everything but its nicely finished. My bike is a cube and from them I think that the following bike is good value with the bigger battery etc. 9-speed should be fine with the active plus motor:

https://www.e-bikesdirect.co.uk/brands/cube/cube-acid-hybrid-one-500-allroad-mens-ht-electric-mtb-2019-grey-9-speed-29-wheel

Although I didn't buy my bike off them I have found Greenaer to be very good Bosch dealers. Also they hire out ebikes so you might do well to talk to them / try one. They also sell ex-rentals.

I bought off chainreaction and they're good to deal with. Also they are on the public services bike to work scheme.

This seems incredible value actually if you don't mind a step through. Would be a good city bike:
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/cube-town-hybrid-sport-500-trapeze-e-bike-2018/rp-prod178020

Ferris

Deleted User wrote: »

Electric bikes though are encouraging more to get out of cars and they will pay because the cost of a 3-4 K Ebike is nothing compared to the cost of running a car especially depreciation. In the first year of depreciation alone that would pay for the bike.

Personally I saved 1600quid in fuel costs alone in 2018, which paid for the bike. Took the car off the road so add tax/insurance /repairs to that. I still have the car so had to swallow the depreciation and the bike repairs and upgrades are significant - maybe 500quid or so but I'm happy with that.

Ferris

Ferris wrote: »

Worth realizing that the motor assistance drops off above 25kph. Ebikes can be dogs above this limit, the bikes are heavy, upright riding positions induce a lot of wind resistance and some motors (bosch performance line/CX) create quite a bit of drag. If you are able to regularly exceed 25kph on a bike an ebike might not be for you. I have heard that the gen 3 bosch motors are not as draggy however but that the minimum is the active line plus if you want to do hills regularly. The big plus of ebikes in my view is that they will go through anything in terms of headwinds and hills.

https://www.e-bikesdirect.co.uk/brands/cube/cube-acid-hybrid-one-500-allroad-mens-ht-electric-mtb-2019-grey-9-speed-29-wheel


This seems incredible value actually if you don't mind a step through. Would be a good city bike:
https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/cube-town-hybrid-sport-500-trapeze-e-bike-2018/rp-prod178020

Those two bikes have the 50 Nm Torque motors and not the extra shove of the Performance CX which have 75 Nm but if they can be got at a good cost then they would be good commuters.

Yes with all these motors there is drag because they don't think people will want to cycle them with no motor assistance however for the most part I think they are ok to pedal without power but it will be noticeable.

This is what is leading me back to the direction of a rear geared Hub motor because my mac motor did not have this same level of drag and it peddled pretty normal without assistance, that and the cheaper cost of conversion but anyone doing conversions the crank drives would probably be better options for them , neater installation and they will climb anything with the right gearing.

snowstreams

Thanks Ferris, I had been looking at a cube bike for 1800 euro.

That last bike for 1600 euro looks pretty good.
My wife could take it for a spin sometimes too then since its unisex!

Is the motor drag still significant when the motor is disconnected from the battery?
I assumed it wouldn't give much resistance when it wasn't connected to a circuit and so wasnt giving any back emf.

Also would there be many places that would service these bikes?
or are you better off learning about them yourself?

Ferris

I have the CX and it has a lot of drag, but apparently the gen 3 motors have little or no drag as they're a new design (i.e. no reduction gearbox like the CX). Also for road use only the CX is too powerful, pretty much at the limit instantly in my experience, it'll climb anything mind.

Ferris

Ferris wrote: »

Personally I saved 1600quid in fuel costs alone in 2018, which paid for the bike. Took the car off the road so add tax/insurance /repairs to that. I still have the car so had to swallow the depreciation and the bike repairs and upgrades are significant - maybe 500quid or so but I'm happy with that.

I can't ditch the car but my commuting is free, far cheaper than a weekly Luas or Train ticket but yeah have the car to pay for but I need a car out in the sticks anyway.

I drive EV and charge at work. I might have to charge for an hour depending on how hard I floor it but for the most part it's free for 172 Kms. Even if I had to charge at home it would cost about 2.50 Euro's on night rate.

But for anyone who can give up the car the savings are pretty massive compared to tax, insurance, maintenance, repayments, depreciation ( the big one ) and fuel.

snowstreams

What do you mean too powerful?

Is there not some torque sensor feedback to control how much power the motor gives?

Ive cycled a cheaper design before where the power was instant but it didnt have much of a sensor.

Ferris

See above on motor drag, the performance line plus is one of those new Gen 3 motors. Its not a back emf issue I think, more the reduction gearing in the gen2 motors.

The motor is actually a sealed unit, there is no service required. I do all my own maintenance which consists of new front cogs, chain, cassette and brake discs and parts - I enjoy it actually. I also fitted my own wired lights which are great.

In saying that I have found Greenaer great to run a diagnostic and to enable the light function in the system. They only charged me a tenner for that and wouldn't accept more despite my protestations.

Ferris

snowstreams wrote: »

What do you mean too powerful?

Is there not some torque sensor feedback to control how much power the motor gives?

Ive cycled a cheaper design before where the power was instant but it didnt have much of a sensor.

In that it takes off like a scalded cat only for the assistance to cut at 25kph. No issue with the system, its the silly limit that ruins it.

snowstreams

snowstreams wrote: »

Thanks Ferris, I had been looking at a cube bike for 1800 euro.

That last bike for 1600 euro looks pretty good.
My wife could take it for a spin sometimes too then since its unisex!

Is the motor drag still significant when the motor is disconnected from the battery?
I assumed it wouldn't give much resistance when it wasn't connected to a circuit and so wasnt giving any back emf.

Also would there be many places that would service these bikes?
or are you better off learning about them yourself?

The drag is down to not using very low friction parts + on my bike there is something turning when not under load which is bound to add to the drag, there is no gear box in my 2013 bike.

The Geared hub motors do not have this issue provided they are internally geared as they have a clutch that completely disengages the motor when not in use so the only moving part is the wheel itself. The down side of course is they need more power to climb very steep hills and the likes of the Bosch would be far more efficient on these hills.

With the Bosch I could cycle 55 Kms and climb some pretty decent hills and still have 50-60% of the 400 watt hr battery.

So while the drag is noticeable turning it to the minimum setting will eliminate this drag it just doesn't feel the as natural.

Ferris

Ferris wrote: »

In that it takes off like a scalded cat only for the assistance to cut at 25kph. No issue with the system, its the silly limit that ruins it.

The limit can be eliminated

Ferris

Deleted User wrote: »

The limit can be eliminated

You're gonna be made stand in the corner again.

snowstreams

I was just about to hint at something similar with the limit!
As long as it doesnt cause the battery or motor to fail prematurely.

Is the limit a legal issue or to protect the electrics?

25kmph would still get me to work in a little over 45 mins, so not too bad.

Or it's a legal issue, the Nanny E.U made up this rule of 250 watts and 25 Km/h or it's not a bicycle, a law made up by people who are not qualified in mechanics or electronics.

Whatever about the speed limit the power limit just proves they haven't got a clue and truth be told they made up this law to keep people in cars so we will keep paying more tax in fuel.......

But anyway, Bosch, Yamaha etc all blow the 250 Watt power limit even by Bosch's own admission and power graphs. But they are type approved so who cares ? the real issue is acceleration and speed limit while I accept there must be a speed limit the fact motor assistance completely curs out at 25 Km/h means that at the limit you are fighting the motor and resistance of hills and it feels a bit uncomfortable at times.

In the U.S the limit is 20 Mph, and 25 km/h in the E.U at the very lease assistance should drop off to 30-35 km/h and not simply die at 25 Km/h

Nanny E.U are there to protect us and keep us safe, Bless them !

Ferris

The same motors can be used to provide assistance up to 45kph from Bosch once its for an S-pedelec class which is essentially licenced, type approved and insured like a moped. Also cannot use cycle lanes obviously.

You can delimit a Bosch ebike but its an un-taxed, uninsured, unlicenced vehicle with insufficient brakes imo. Its completely illegal, end of, so it would be a very uncomfortable position should you ever hit someone for say. Regardless of circumstances you'd be in the wrong.

If you hit someone you could be sued irrespective of whether you have an legal ebike or not. Pedestrians will always play the innocent anyway walking around looking at their mobiles, texting with headphones in.

You can simply up the limit to something more sensible like 30 Km/h pretty easy with the right equipment and that will have negligible impact but more of a positive impact to the rider.

I could cycle unassisted and hit a pedestrian at 30 Km/h so whether you have an ebike or not is completely irreverent.

However I would always advice to get the legally higher powered ebike , tax and insure it, the insurance will be minimal but you are not legally allowed to use cycle lanes lol I love it , you couldn't make all this sh1t up if you tried !

Having the higher speed limit is going to be very beneficial in many ways and having insurance is wise because as I said , having a faster insured ebike is always better then a fully legal slower bike uninsured because don't kid yourselves, if you hit someone you can be easily sued and you will most likely have to sell the house to pay legal fees , so be insured !

I believe all cyclists should be insured anyway even to cover their own arses !