Electric bike - see mode note post #298

rubadub

1bryan wrote: »

29.9 is way too fast for cycle lanes in the city. It would create dangerous situations for slower-moving bikes which, I'd suggest move at an average speed of 23/24kph.

In the US the limit is 32.2kph. I wonder if there are any groups actively campaigning to lower this speed, or just randomers complaining it is far too high.

I know groups are meant to be trying to get the EU limit raised.

https://irishcycle.com/2015/07/08/transport-minister-questioned-on-powerful-electric-bicycles/

A growing number of European and other bicycle manufacturers are creating fast electric bicycles which can reach speeds of up to 40km/h with little effort.

A parliamentary question asked by Clare Daly TD (Dublin North, United Left) was told that minister has no current plan to increase the speed allowed. It is unclear who Daly was asking the question for.

Deputy Daly asked: “To ask the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport if he has considered increasing the speed limits for electric pedelecs from 15 mph (25 km/h) and increasing the engine size to above 250 watts in view of the fact that the current limits were set in 1978.”

In reply, the minister for transport, Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael), wrote: “I have no proposals at this time for amending legislation in relation to pedelecs (electrically assisted bicycles). I will however keep the matter under review.”

I have said before I reckon the 30kmh limit might be acceptable to most people so you would have far less people bothering to go to the expense, hassle and legal risk of delimiting their bikes, and then going around really fast simply since they can.

1bryan

rubadub wrote: »

In the US the limit is 32.2kph. I wonder if there are any groups actively campaigning to lower this speed, or just randomers complaining it is far too high.

I know groups are meant to be trying to get the EU limit raised.

https://irishcycle.com/2015/07/08/transport-minister-questioned-on-powerful-electric-bicycles/

amazed a country that doesn't use the metric system, sets limits in metric.

what do you mean by 'randomers'? People who feel their lives and safety are put in danger? A bit of a disingenuous description, no?

1bryan

1bryan wrote: »

I have no problem with bikes not being limited, or with them having their limit increased. However, they are not safe to use in cycle lanes, and should be subject to different laws than 'regular' pushbikes. That is my opinion as someone who cycles, daily, in cycle lanes in the city. I do not wish to have my safety compromised and, from my experience, people with un/de-limited bikes will use every bit of speed their bikes will give them.

I love your analogy though. You don't drive a car at 130 Km/h all the time. Given the amounts of deaths on our roads caused by speeding, I think you shot your own argument in the foot. I honestly don't care if you don't drive your car at 130Km/h all the time. The fact is, people do drive with excessive speed, and you only need to encounter someone doing that once, for a tragedy to occur. Same thing with bikes. The consequences may not be as grave, but I don't want any additional danger introduced into my commute, thanks very much.

And how dare I have an opinion, right?

I'm not saying you are not entitled to an opinion , have I said otherwise ? surely we can debate something and have different views ?

It's not speed that kills it's stupidity. I can drive 140 Km/h on a free motorway and it's not dangerous , If I drive back roads on Donegal roads 140 Km/h is a different story hence using your brain.

If I drive at 140 Km/h on motorways with lots of surface water I'm asking for trouble or if I drive at 50 Km/h past a School it could also be reckless considering our narrow streets with cars parked 2 wheels on the footpath.

You could also argue there are cyclists on normal push bikes with no regard for rules of the road, I've seen it regularly.

1bryan

Deleted User wrote: »

You could also argue there are cyclists on normal push bikes with no regard for rules of the road, I've seen it regularly.

agreed, but it is a different discussion, and there are laws to regulate what constitutes 'safe' cycling on normal push bikes. But that's what we're talking about here, what the laws should be.

And I don't buy the 'stupidity' argument, though I understand where you're coming from. People use that argument when trying to justify gun violence in America, for example.

1bryan

1bryan wrote: »

agreed, but it is a different discussion, and there are laws to regulate what constitutes 'safe' cycling on normal push bikes. But that's what we're talking about here, what the laws should be.

And I don't buy the 'stupidity' argument, though I understand where you're coming from. People use that argument when trying to justify gun violence in America, for example.

If people don't use guns they will use other means to kill, it's not the guns it's mental health issues that are completely ignored but most serious.

If , for example a Child has mental issues nurtured out of bad or abusive parenting and he wants to kill some people in his School he will use whatever means he can be it guns or bombs. Removing guns might make it less easy and most of all it's not addressing real mental illness.

But that's a far stretch going from guns to ebikes lol.

The laws are long since broken with pretty much all ebikes on the road today which far exceed legal limits of 250 watts because 250 watts wouldn't pull you up a hill with any meaningful rate.

Ebike power has long since been about 500-700 watts.

Virtually all ebikes today could easily be confiscated, or not, because they got their tyoe approval so who really cares at the end of the day ?

The most important thing are speed and acceleration restrictions and this is why all ebikes today get their type approval watts is obviously not calculated.

monkeybutter

30kph would be a more sensible cut off



Around what the average decent upstanding person could put out on the flat, on average


Otherwise, you might as well just cycle an auld pushbike.


I'd be exceeding that daily in city center cycle lanes, and have yet to kill anyone at that ludicrous speed

My local road has an 80 Km/h speed limit where you can hardly drive 50 Km/h and you have to stop to move into the ditch for both cars to pass. This would previously had a 100 Km/h limit until the brought the limits down but the limits are set by classification or something like that, i.e country road v main national route etc.

Of course it doesn't mean I should drive at 80 Km/h because I can't but people easily drive much faster than what I drive on that little road causing me to hammer the brakes and into the ditch.

Anyway there are S-pedelecs that are perfectly legal and can operate at 48 Km/h and all you need is a normal licence and insurance and most cycle lanes are unsuitable and used by bus lanes so I see no reason a bike can't travel 48 Km/h in the Bus lane once he uses his legally required Mirror to ensure there is no bus/taxi coming.

monkeybutter

monkeybutter wrote: »

30kph would be a more sensible cut off



Around what the average decent upstanding person could put out on the flat, on average


Otherwise, you might as well just cycle an auld pushbike.


I'd be exceeding that daily in city center cycle lanes, and have yet to kill anyone at that ludicrous speed

In the U.S ebike limits are 20 Mph and throttle is allowed and apart from a ban in New York City , mainly due to delivery companies, I've not heard of much issues.

30 Km/h wouldn't be too hard achieve on a proper light road bike with skinny tyres pumped to 100+ PSI, a lot of people don't get the benefits of very high PSI tyres.

The real issues is People's lack of regard for others with a I'll do what I want attitude regardless of limits and laws etc.

People said electric cars were dangerous to the public but I've never had an issue the greatest issue I encounter more and more are people with headphones in and texting while walking, so should we create another law for this and another law for that and another law just for the sake of creating another law ?

How about creating another law where cycles lanes are dedicated to bicycles only ? but I've seen decent cycle lanes and cyclists using the road so you will never win.

rubadub

1bryan wrote: »

amazed a country that doesn't use the metric system, sets limits in metric.

they don't its 20mph, 32.2kph

1bryan wrote: »

what do you mean by 'randomers'? People who feel their lives and safety are put in danger? A bit of a disingenuous description, no?

I just meant posters on forums like this etc, rather than organisations. I have never once seen a concern about a limit of 30kph or their existing one of 20mph/32.3kph. Not sure why you think I am being disingenuous.

Actually reading my post again I think you read it as

could be read as -I wonder if there are any groups actively campaigning to lower this speed, or is it just randomers I have seen complaining it is far too high.

Should be read as -I wonder if there are any groups actively campaigning to lower this speed, if not are there even any randomers complaining it is far too high.

i.e. I was wondering if there is anybody at all concerned, you are the first I have ever seen. I was not saying I knew of any people posting about it.

1bryan

rubadub wrote: »

you are the first I have ever seen.

I posted a link to an article on this thread, either yesterday or on monday.

And I love that my rationale suddenly ceases to matter because you are not aware of anyone else sharing my viewpoint, thus completely dismissing the basis of what my actual viewpoint is.

To clarify, I think E-bikes are, by in large, great. From my own personal experience, seeing how dangerously they can be ridden in busy cycle lanes at rush hour, I think the laws are justified and should be enforced (and certainly not changed)

E-scooters are a different thing altogether and I'm not including those in my argument (for the record I think they should be banned outright from the road).

1bryan

1bryan wrote: »

To clarify, I think E-bikes are, by in large, great. From my own personal experience, seeing how dangerously they can be ridden in busy cycle lanes at rush hour, I think the laws are justified and should be enforced (and certainly not changed)

Same goes for normal bikes, laws should be enforced for those breaking the laws.

1bryan wrote: »

E-scooters are a different thing altogether and I'm not including those in my argument (for the record I think they should be banned outright from the road).

I'm inclined to agree with you on this funny enough. Riding on footpaths and I've heard of people riding through super markets and shopping centres, madness.

1bryan

Deleted User wrote: »

Same goes for normal bikes, laws should be enforced for those breaking the laws.

100% agreed.

rubadub

1bryan wrote: »

And I love that my rationale suddenly ceases to matter because you are not aware of anyone else sharing my viewpoint, thus completely dismissing the basis of what my actual viewpoint is.

I never said it doesn't matter, you seem to be reading a lot into my post. I was curious to see discussion about it as I would be interested to see debate about it from both sides. I had simply never heard of it before.

I encounter loads of commuters doing 30kph and think it would be an adequate & sensible limit. I have given my reason why I think it would actually be safer out there if the limit was increased to 30kph -as I reckon far less would delimit completely, it is not cheap to do it, and has a legal risk.

I think it is an unintended consequence, just as being people lashing down treble spirits at last orders is a consequence on having limits on pub closing time and then them going out causing fights. I believe staggered or unlimited closing times would result in it being safer.

cdaly_

rubadub wrote: »

I encounter loads of commuters doing 30kph and think it would be an adequate & sensible limit. I have given my reason why I think it would actually be safer out there if the limit was increased to 30kph -as I reckon far less would delimit completely, it is not cheap to do it, and has a legal risk.

I think it is an unintended consequence, just as being people lashing down treble spirits at last orders is a consequence on having limits on pub closing time and then them going out causing fights. I believe staggered or unlimited closing times would result in it being safer.

I don't think a 30kph limit would make a difference. If there's a limit, the delimiter will work to break it.

rubadub

cdaly_ wrote: »

I don't think a 30kph limit would make a difference. If there's a limit, the delimiter will work to break it.

Not sure if you get what I am saying. I doubt many people with 45kmh bikes bother to pay ~€150 to delimit.

https://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=101614
https://www.greenaer.ie/fast-e-bikes/#

cdaly_

rubadub wrote: »

Not sure if you get what I am saying. I doubt many people with 45kmh bikes bother to pay ~€150 to delimit.

https://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=101614
https://www.greenaer.ie/fast-e-bikes/#

If you're paying €7k already sure why not...

Ray Bloody Purchase

With an electric bike is the electric motor helping you all the time or is it just for difficult hills, against the wind, etc?

rubadub

cdaly_ wrote: »

If you're paying €7k already sure why not...

the CRC bike is €3.5k, there is a huge cost alright, so why spend even more if you do not have any reason to -i.e.the upper limit may be perfectly acceptable to you.

-legal issues, though the 45kph limit is already very dodgy but I would prefer to be in front of a judge or garda with no delimiter found on the bike so you could at least claim ignorance and say you bought it from a reputable shop.

-There is big risk of the delimiter effecting the warranty, some are hard wired in.

-Risk of damage to the bike and/or electronics during installation.

-Risk of the delimiter itself failing and possibly damaging the electronics of leaving you stranded.

rubadub

Ray Bloody Purchase wrote: »

With an electric bike is the electric motor helping you all the time or is it just for difficult hills, against the wind, etc?

Road road legal ones the motor only gives power if you are actively pedalling. On most systems you can select the power supplied. e.g. on a bosch you have eco, touring, sport and turbo mode. By cycling on eco you get less assist to the battery lasts longer so you get more range. If you were cycling to work in wind you might want turbo mode, but you may not care about getting sweaty on the way home and choose eco to get some exercise, or your round trip might be too long and you might need eco to get home on the single charge.

Or you might just want turbo to get up a difficult hill. This makes a quick spin far more enjoyable. I would go places on mine I would never have bothered with before as there might be really nasty stretches. Also I can easily carry a lot of weight in a bag so can go shopping in far off places I never would have considered on a regular bike.

Electric bikes are expensive this is why people are turning to diy kits which include in most cases, a throttle. But expensive or not the health benefits make it worth it and it's fun and means you can go places you wouldn't dream on a normal bike and you can still get plenty of exercise and it's something you can keep many years if properly cared for.

You can convert an electric bike yourself but expect to pay at least 1000 Euro's, a good quality battery alone can cost 500 euro's and if you do this make sure to buy from reputable companies like em3ev.com I have bought kits from him before and for a friend and he makes his own batteries, all top quality from China not some rubbish that's attached to kits and sold for 2K in Europe. Not only that but the Man , called Paul or CellMan on Endless Sphere.com has an excellent reputation so if someone wants to go down the kit route this is definitely the site to go to. And he can configure it anyway you want, he can set speed limits and power limits and include peddle assist only kits.

The Halfords bike posted earlier might, and I emphasise "might" actually be a good bike, I read a review where someone was happy with it thought it had good power. I have no personal experience with one.

As I said, you have to think about what you want, regular very steep hill climbs, very slow trails, then chain/crank drives with Bosch, yamaha, Panasonic etc are the way to go for better efficiency and hill climbing ability but for the majority of people, especially in Dublin ,hub motors ( geared hubs only ) are more than good enough, trust me I rode one for many miles.

Kit wise, I would recommend a Mac Rear Geared hub motor, 36-48 volts 12 T wind motor for more torque, 48 volts max speed is 36 Km/h and on 36 Volts 30 Km/h level ground , the speed you can lower or request lowered, current of the controller can be 25 or 30 amps , amps give you torque so if you play around with the motor simulator here you can see what kind of setup this will provide.

it will provide @ 25 amps controller, 85 Nm of torque from 0- about 8 Km/h and then at 25 Km/h you got 45 Nm of torque but climbing steep hills you will most likely be a lot slower than 25 Km/h so the motor will be providing more torque where you need it. this 12T is a higher torque motor.

Again , currently only geared hubs offer a normal bike experience when no motor power is applied meaning it's easier to peddle unassisted.

Here's the motor simulator link.

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html?bopen=false&motor=MMAC12T&batt=B3614_PF&cont=C25&grade=0

The em3ev motor kit ( excluding battery ) the 36 Volt option. with 25 Amp controller. You will have to find a battery on the site rated to handle 25 amps continuous and remember he builds and tests them himself.

https://em3ev.com/shop/mac-kit-36v-frame-battery-900w-max/

On and remember if using a hub motor you must always use torque arms, this stops the axle spinning in the dropouts from the motor torque, they are essential for protection of the cables to the motor and to stop the wheel popping out of the dropouts !

1-2 I recommend 2 if 1 fails or becomes loose.

https://em3ev.com/shop/grin-tech-torque-arm/

And don't forget your pedal assist option which is a legal requirement....... it's not torque based pedal assist so don't expect it to give the same feel as a Bosch.

magicbastarder

how often do we have to say it - no talk endorsing/advising/etc. chipping of bikes or how to get around it or avoid detection, if it makes those bike non-road legal (unless classed as a moped).

Hang on a sec, boards does not ban talk about tuning cars...............

Weepsie

Deleted User wrote: »

But expensive or not the health benefits make it worth it and it's fun and means you can go places you wouldn't dream on a normal bike

Like where? I can't think of too many places I can't get to on one of my numerous ordinary bikes.

I'm assuming you mean distances can be covered quicker with less fatigue.

Weepsie

Deleted User wrote: »

Hang on a sec, boards does not ban talk about tuning cars...............

Tuning cars and delimiting bikes are 2 different things. This is the very, very last warning on the subject and I'm putting it here for everybody's benefit. Have a problem with a mod warning, PM the mod.

Weepsie

Weepsie wrote: »

Like where? I can't think of too many places I can't get too on one of my numerous ordinary bikes.

I'm assuming you mean distances can be covered quicker with less fatigue.

Yes this is something some cycling enthusiasts bring up quite often , why would someone want an electric bike when I can cycle up anything ?

It's pretty simple, not everyone's brain gets that kind of stimulation from extreme physical exertion that some people get that gives them a high.

Most people who are not fit or whom can't be on their bikes daily due to long commutes, family commitments etc don't have the ability to climb hills or cycle long distance into headwinds and need/want something to take the sting out of cycling while still getting plenty of exercise because don't kid yourself, the Bosch ebikes and a lot of others with proper torque sensing pedelec systems make you work hard they do however give a lot of people the ability to get out and go places they wouldn't normally and the more they can get out the fitter they can get , now how would I know that ? because some years back I lost 20 Kg in 3 months on my diy ebike.

Now if loosing 20 Kg in 3 months does not make an ebike worth the money I don't know what does.

Weepsie

OH yeah, I totally agree that for many eBikes are a great option. My dad is a case in point. He wouldn't be able to cycle too long or too far on a regular bike as he is, but with an eBike he could undoubtedly get fit, lose weight and graduate back to a normal bike if he wanted to.

If I ended up with a commute over 25 k, I'd probably buy one too as it would pay for itself over 18 months in bus fare alone. I'd still have my other bike for some days.

I just think it's not true to say it that way. Saying it will make places a bit more accessible something might be a better way of putting it.

Anything that get's people out of cars is to be treated as positive

magicbastarder

mod note - we've adopted a policy to allow discussion on whether the current limits on e-bikes are sensible and justifiable, which we think is a valid discussion.
however, to draw a corollary with another road traffic law; while a discussion on whether particular speed limits are sensible for cars is reasonable, it's another matter entirely to discuss how to exceed those speeds and evade detection. this is the approach we're taking here; any suggestions in a post that a poster is endorsing or advising on how to break the law in relation to e-bikes will be deleted without warning.

magicbastarder

FWIW (no mod hat on this time), i see no issue with the current limits. bikes are treated as distinct from motorised vehicles precisely because they're lighter and slower than motorised traffic. well, maybe that's not the be all and end all of it, but i am concerned that if there was a push to allow e-bikes to go faster, the authorities could treat bikes as a homogeneous lump and try to enfore stricter limits on all bikes, not just e-bikes.
given that to manage a consistent 30km/h on a bike, on the flat in no wind, is not something you'd do easily unless you were already a reasonably fit cyclist, getting up to 25km/h with assistance seems reasonable.

and maybe it's prejudice here, but by the time you get to the point you're able to sustain 30km/h on a bike, you've probably learned decent roadcraft - not just the rules of the road, but learned a decent sense of balance, how a bike handles, etc.; it's possibly not coincidence that in germany and the netherlands, e-bikes have been associated with an upswing in cyclist deaths, particularly amongst the elderly AFAIK.

lastly, one thing i learned years ago was that a bigger determinant of how long your journey takes is how slow you go on the slow bits, rather than how fast you go on the fast bits; so raising the limit for a bike doesn't have as much of an effect on journey times as people might think.

ED E

Thats my concern Magic.


If you're doing 30kph on a "traditional"(I'll abstain from saying real here) bike you're putting at least some effort in. Probably pumping 130bpm+ depending on fitness. Hopefully somewhat alert.

If you're just thumbing a throttle and thinking about what pastry you're gonna get in Centra before work you may well be full zombie.



Thats a commute (not mine) across the city this morning. Very strong cyclist. Avg 19. With a 250w assist you can cruise at 25kph nearly all the time. Probably average 22kph. More than enough.

magicbastarder

according to strava, my cycle this morning was 19.6km, just under 45min moving time, total time elapsed was just over 47 minutes. and that was with a little bit of wind assistance - so an average of 25km/h this morning. that's done early in the morning - starting at 6:30am, and includes roads such as griffith avenue, strand road and the rock road where i'm not really being held up by traffic.

if i was to do the entire cycle at 30km/h without stopping, i'd do it in 40 minutes, and at 25km/h consistently, it'd be about 47 minutes. stopping and starting at lights would probably knock half the difference off (not based on any scientific calculations!); so there's really not much to be gained by raising the limit.