Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

Clegg

Clegg wrote: »

That's a really interesting stat actually.

There's a perception about Sexton as being unreliable with the boot. Probably coloured by that kick against NZ and the Championship decider against France a few years ago.

To truly gauge how good a kicker is, we need a full breakdown of kick location, importance of the kick, weather conditions etc etc.

Never thought of Jonny as being unreliable, though.

padser

Clegg wrote: »

That's a really interesting stat actually.

There's a perception about Sexton as being unreliable with the boot. Probably coloured by that kick against NZ and the Championship decider against France a few years ago.

Raw stats tell you very little.

The real question is, in the biggest game of the season, 2 points down and no time left on the clock - do you want the guy stepping up to take a difficult kick.

Although I'm a massive Sexton fan (rate him as consistently in the top 3 out halves in the world for the last 5 to 6 seasons) my answer to that question really has to be.......not really.

He has just missed to many big kicks at crucial times (although often being a huge part of the reason the big kick was even available)

CMOTDibbler

Basil3 wrote: »

To truly gauge how good a kicker is, we need a full breakdown of kick location, importance of the kick, weather conditions etc etc.

Never thought of Jonny as being unreliable, though.

We don't really when the sample size is so big.

Jonny Sexton: 830
Leigh Halfpenny: 616
Owen Farrell: 871

For comparison purposes, Jonny Wilkinson had an 86% success rate from 1700 kicks. ROG had 86% from 1276. :eek:

With that number of kicks, every possible situation has to be catered for numerous times. If you're only missing 1 in 10, you can't be doing badly in any circumstance.

1eg0a3xv7b82of

thomond2006 wrote: »

I don't know where to begin with this rubbish.

I guess its case of questions asked and not answered.
time to take out the trash indeed.

D14Rugby

sydthebeat wrote: »

there was john Taylor (welsh scrum half) who didnt make himself available for selection due to the apartheid

i cant think of any irish player who refused after selection.

(unless you count quinny as self sabotage !)

Wasn't there a tour to SA in the 80's that was boycotted by some players?

sydthebeat

D14Rugby wrote: »

Wasn't there a tour to SA in the 80's that was boycotted by some players?

Are you thinking of an Irish tour from back then when the likes of Tony ward and others boycotted?

Bazzo

Gatland's statement about the lack of Scottish representation is pretty laughable. Personally I think another 2 or maybe 3 lions was the most the Scots could ever have hoped for but this is questionable reasoning at best and unlikely to do more than poke the bear:

Warren Gatland wrote:

And we are not playing at home. We are playing away from home. Scotland haven't been to New Zealand since 2000. And we are playing the best team, back-to-back world champions in their own backyard. We have to perform away from home, that's going to be paramount.

Ehhh, what about your own Wales Wazza G? Got annihilated in 3 matches away to NZ very recently and have a poor record overall against SH teams. Of course, there's also the fact that no team has a good away record against the all blacks.

bilston

Scotland haven't played in NZ for 17 years?!!

Thelomen Toblackai

Bazzo wrote: »

Ehhh, what about your own Wales Wazza G? Got annihilated in 3 matches away to NZ very recently and have a poor record overall against SH teams. Of course, there's also the fact that no team has a good away record against the all blacks.

Wales have an abysmal record against SH teams. With 3 wins (2 x SA in 2016 and 2014. 1 x Aus in 2008) in about 40 games over the last 10 years and all 3 home games. Matched by even Scotland who have played half the amount of games against the same opposition.

They were well beaten within 50 minutes in all three tests against NZ the last time they went down there iirc. Picking up consolation tries at the death to pretty up the scoreboard.

Gatland of course is blind to his own ineptitude as the Welsh coach though.

D14Rugby

sydthebeat wrote: »

Are you thinking of an Irish tour from back then when the likes of Tony ward and others boycotted?

I may be yeah. Before I was around but I've heard of a tour referred to as the "boycotted apartheid tour" or along those lines

D14Rugby

If that's the reasoning surely no Welsh players should be going

CurryFlavoured

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

We don't really when the sample size is so big.

Jonny Sexton: 830
Leigh Halfpenny: 616
Owen Farrell: 871

For comparison purposes, Jonny Wilkinson had an 86% success rate from 1700 kicks. ROG had 86% from 1276. :eek:

With that number of kicks, every possible situation has to be catered for numerous times. If you're only missing 1 in 10, you can't be doing badly in any circumstance.

One thing I'll point out that might skew things is that Farrell has been kicking goals consistently since he was a teenager. He's obviously a much better kicker now. Sexton wasn't really kicking in the Contepomi days was he? Hence why he's like 5 years older but hasn't kicked as many.

They're all quality kickers, realistically it's between Farrell and Sexton. Jonny just has that stigma of missing the odd very important kick, maybe it's unfair but people remember the big ones.

Buer

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

They're all quality kickers, realistically it's between Farrell and Sexton. Jonny just has that stigma of missing the odd very important kick, maybe it's unfair but people remember the big ones.

I could point out some massive kicks missed at the biggest stage by other players who are considered "pressure kickers" but are not remembered at all.

The reason Sexton is remembered is because he was in contention with a public favourite and mistakes were hyper analysed.

razorblunt

I still can't really see who else the Scots can properly feel aggrieved about, Jonnie Gray is 100% a player that should have got picked.
Laidlaw would die on his feet at the back of rucks, Richie doesn't have the physicality, Watson, would probably have made any other tour but was never getting in ahead of Tipuric and Warburton is the other 7, Russell sh?t the course against England and then again for Glasgow after the 6Nations.

I've seen a few folk say Strauss, should be picked, that's just mad talk.

Bazzo

Bazzo wrote: »

Gatland's statement about the lack of Scottish representation is pretty laughable. Personally I think another 2 or maybe 3 lions was the most the Scots could ever have hoped for but this is questionable reasoning at best and unlikely to do more than poke the bear:



Ehhh, what about your own Wales Wazza G? Got annihilated in 3 matches away to NZ very recently and have a poor record overall against SH teams. Of course, there's also the fact that no team has a good away record against the all blacks.

Gatland has an absolutely lamentable record against SH teams as Wales coach. I can't believe that quote tbh.

Leslie91

WesternZulu wrote: »

Was it not Keith Wood who called for a name change to its current form; it must have been a bone of contention to some?

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/british-irish-lions-face-another-name-change-136150

It still bothers me when the likes of Woodward always says British Lions..

Wish they'd just be known as the Lions end of.

Webbs

Bazzo wrote: »

Gatland's statement about the lack of Scottish representation is pretty laughable. Personally I think another 2 or maybe 3 lions was the most the Scots could ever have hoped for but this is questionable reasoning at best and unlikely to do more than poke the bear:



Ehhh, what about your own Wales Wazza G? Got annihilated in 3 matches away to NZ very recently and have a poor record overall against SH teams. Of course, there's also the fact that no team has a good away record against the all blacks.

A lot of people on here have Gatland blindness. He was not alluding to any record of winning losing etc. In his interview he is stating that travelling to New Zealand is a unique place to go with the intensity as much off the pitch as on.
Thats why he mentioned that Scotland and their players not being there in so long is a factor in any 50/50 calls they may have had. In addition its a 'committee' decision who was on the squad list not just Gatlands.

Webbs

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Wales have an abysmal record against SH teams. With 3 wins (2 x SA in 2016 and 2014. 1 x Aus in 2008) in about 40 games over the last 10 years and all 3 home games. Matched by even Scotland who have played half the amount of games against the same opposition.

They were well beaten within 50 minutes in all three tests against NZ the last time they went down there iirc. Picking up consolation tries at the death to pretty up the scoreboard.

Gatland of course is blind to his own ineptitude as the Welsh coach though.

3 6N championships, 2 grand slams, world cup semi final. Awful ineptitude that.

padser

Webbs wrote: »

3 6N championships, 2 grand slams, world cup semi final. Awful ineptitude that.

First Lions tour win in yonks as well.

Still dislike the guy, disagree with him a lot. But I begrudgingly concede he is a good coach

thomond2006

Lyra Long Drug wrote: »

I guess its case of questions asked and not answered.
time to take out the trash indeed.

It's because the suggestion is not thought out to begin with. SRU would never do anything to jeopardise their stake with the Lions and you can't seriously expect any player to withdraw from the squad and lose out on their salary.

Former Former

Webbs wrote: »

Thats why he mentioned that Scotland and their players not being there in so long is a factor in any 50/50 calls they may have had. In addition its a 'committee' decision who was on the squad list not just Gatlands.

You'd also wonder if Scotland would have had more players if Townsend had taken the coaching role that he was offered. Judging on the reports, Andy Farrell was pushing Payne in a big way, I'm sure there were a lot more guys who had their champions in the selection meetings.

tomred1

Quick question could Gatland have picked French based Irish/English etc.. players?

Former Former

tomred1 wrote: »

Quick question could Gatland have picked French based Irish/English etc.. players?

He did - Leigh Halfpenny is going

Buer

Former Former wrote: »

You'd also wonder if Scotland would have had more players if Townsend had taken the coaching role that he was offered. Judging on the reports, Andy Farrell was pushing Payne in a big way, I'm sure there were a lot more guys who had their champions in the selection meetings.

Undoubtedly. There's always going to be a boost to players if their coach is involved. I don't see it as a massive coincidence that two Harlequins props are on the plane and the scrum coach is their coach at Harlequins, for example.

Or in 1997, McGeechan brought 5 players from Northampton. They finished 8th from 12 in the league that season....

CurryFlavoured

Former Former wrote: »

He did - Leigh Halfpenny is going

I suppose he meant French based players that don't/can't play nationally (Armitage and Abendanon).

b.gud

CurryFlavoured wrote: »

I suppose he meant French based players that don't/can't play nationally (Armitage and Abendanon).

Yes he can, he was hoping to get Wilkinson for the last tour. As long as players are eligible to play for the 4 home nations, through world rugby rules not each individual union rules, they are eligible to play for the Lions

tomred1

Former Former wrote: »

He did - Leigh Halfpenny is going

Why weren't other French based players e.g the Armitage brothers, been talked about as possible Lions players?

thomond2006

tomred1 wrote: »

Why weren't other French based players e.g the Armitage brothers, been talked about as possible Lions players?

They've fallen away in terms of profile/age.

razorblunt

thomond2006 wrote: »

They've fallen away in terms of profile/age.

Justice for Carl Fearns!

pickarooney

razorblunt wrote: »

Justice for Carl Fearns!

Possibly the best 8 in the top 14 this year.