Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

molloyjh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's not even a one-of-a-kind!

http://www.lionsrugby.com/news/terms-amp-conditions-signed-press-release-from-the-2017-head-coach-14672#.V8_mg_krLIU



Some would use 'are', but Lions do not.

Competition closes at 10pm lads, get cracking.

You'd also think that multiple prizes would involve a plural of some sort.....

Felix Jones is God

molloyjh wrote: »

I want to say something witty, but I've got nothing. I honestly can't come up with anything more sarcastic or amusing than the title of that page.

Maybe something along the lines of wanting it for a particularly nasty dose of the tom tits so you can wipe your arse with it

Surprised at the level of negativity here towards the Lions. Gatland is probably the most decorated coach working in the NH at the moment and won the last tour. I'm not saying he is the best coach potentially available, but he has a proven track record of doing well with fairly average players.

I love the Lions. I love seeing Irish players in a completely different set up, the players seem to love it too, it's a huge honour and countless former players have talked at length about how the experience benefited them. The last Lions dvd was a thoroughly enjoyable watch.

I also enjoyed the last tour. I thought the Welsh were over represented in the final test albeit there was a solid argument for any of them that were chosen over others that day. I personally never like playing Wales under Gatland, they can be poor but in a must win you can't bet against them. I think if the Lions were to leave everything on the pitch and somehow win the first test, it could end up being an exceptional series.

At least I'm hoping that's how it ends up, way more fun than complaining and expecting a white wash.

Dog Botherer

I mean, obviously I hope the Lions win the series, but no one with an ounce of sense, pundit or otherwise, is entertaining notions of anything other than a very comfortable 3-0 series win for the AB. No scratch side, as talented as the individuals may be, is going to upset the well oiled NZ machine. There's only so much a team that has Roberts at 12 can do really.

Honestly, when you take the best players from 4 countries, most of them are still inferior to the All Blacks. Maybe there's an edge in the props. Nel and McGrath are certainly better than what the AB have. But that's about it. I can't see where the Lions would target NZ to beat them.

RichieRich89

Dog Botherer wrote: »

I mean, obviously I hope the Lions win the series, but no one with an ounce of sense, pundit or otherwise, is entertaining notions of anything other than a very comfortable 3-0 series win for the AB. No scratch side, as talented as the individuals may be, is going to upset the well oiled NZ machine. There's only so much a team that has Roberts at 12 can do really.

Honestly, when you take the best players from 4 countries, most of them are still inferior to the All Blacks. Maybe there's an edge in the props. Nel and McGrath are certainly better than what the AB have. But that's about it. I can't see where the Lions would target NZ to beat them.

Nel's better than Owen Franks and Charlie Faumuina?

Dog Botherer

RichieRich89 wrote: »

Nel's better than Owen Franks and Charlie Faumuina?

In the scrum, without question. McGrath is no slouch in the loose either.

swiwi_

Dog Botherer wrote: »

I mean, obviously I hope the Lions win the series, but no one with an ounce of sense, pundit or otherwise, is entertaining notions of anything other than a very comfortable 3-0 series win for the AB. No scratch side, as talented as the individuals may be, is going to upset the well oiled NZ machine. There's only so much a team that has Roberts at 12 can do really.

Honestly, when you take the best players from 4 countries, most of them are still inferior to the All Blacks. Maybe there's an edge in the props. Nel and McGrath are certainly better than what the AB have. But that's about it. I can't see where the Lions would target NZ to beat them.

One of the problems with NH rugby is too much emphasis is put on the scrumming ability of props. Obviously, you have to be able to hold up a scrum, but the AB props also lift well in lineouts, clean out rucks, and are much better at catch, pass, offload & take the gap than their NH counterparts.

Franks & Moody are both perfectly decently scrummaging props, but I absolutely concede not THE best at that particular skill in the world.

If the series comes purely down to the technical scrumming ability of the props, then the Lions might have an edge.

Don't think Nel in particular would get near the NZ team, from what I've seen he can scrum and not too much else.

sydthebeat

And don't forget, New scrum amendments favour quicker release so one on one scrimmaging battles are lessened.

lawred2

My interest in the Corporate Loyuns and the marketeers roadshow that follows them couldn't get much lower..

I used to enjoy it but the endless hyping up just got too much for me..

Yeah_Right

Are Canterbury the kit sponsors for the Lions now? Is the the first time it's not Adidas since 1997? I would have thought they'd want it for this tour as then they'd have both teams to do ads with.

English Lurker

Deleted User wrote: »

Surprised at the level of negativity here towards the Lions.

I'm not. The level of negativity in regards to Gatland has been plainly on sight for a while.

I am possibly being overly optimistic but I think people are basing their expectations on false premises. A lot of people seem to think he'll show a lot of bias and show up with a Welsh heavy team (and also Irish light) and a game plan of trying solely to outmuscle the All Blacks.

I just rewatched the 1st NZ - Wales test from this summer and I didn't see a team trying to outmuscle the All Blacks. They were trying to generate as many 1 on 1s out wide as possible. Maybe Gatland will revert to type but I don't see that as given.

I also don't see it as a given that he'll pick Welsh heavy. Wales were unquestionably the best BI team in 2013. Now they're probably the 3rd best. I think he does have a bit of bias towards the players he knows, but only a bit and the situation's changed a lot.

I'd agree that Ireland have lost their nailed on players but there's still a bunch of guys who could go and given the vagaries of injury and form, I think plenty will. They're talking about a party of 38-40. Can I see a team with 5-6 Irish starters on? Yeah. I don't think anyone would be surprised if, say, McGrath Henderson O'Mahony Murray Sexton Henshaw all started. Not guaranteed but little in life is.

Honestly, anyone would think they're on a Scottish rugby forum

If Gatland can get the team clicking in time, I think the talent is there to seriously challenge the All Blacks with a fair wind injury wise.

The Rape of Lucretia

Telegraph early musings going for Ireland to have a starter on the Lions test team !

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/09/08/lions-in-new-zealand---how-tourists-might-line-up-for-first-test/sam-warburton/

Go Jack !

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Telegraph early musings going for Ireland to have a starter on the Lions test team !

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/09/08/lions-in-new-zealand---how-tourists-might-line-up-for-first-test/sam-warburton/

Go Jack !

That's a pretty solid and fair go at a prediction imo.

Obviously we're miles away so there's a bunch of injuries coming etc, but that's not far off what should be the team (if those players play to their abilities for the coming season and stay fit & available)

That if is enormous though!

Neil3030

I reckon that Telegraph team won't be far off what we'll see. Though I would rather us try and attack the only area we might conceivably have an advantage over NZ: scrum and lineout/maul. It'll hopefully be pissing rain in June too. So I'd go with a pack of:

McGrath
Hartley
Lee
Itoje
Wyn Jones
Henderson
Warburton
Hughes

Adbrowne

English Lurker wrote: »

I don't think anyone would be surprised if, say, McGrath Henderson O'Mahony Murray Sexton Henshaw all started.

Do you genuinely think O'Mahony will get to tour? I cant see him getting picked barring injuries

Faletau, Warburton, Lydiate, Billy V, Haskell (back from injury soon), Nathan Hughes all in the mix. Can add Strauss and Hardie from scotland as possibles too.

Itoje and Henderson are also options for the backrow too depending on what locks travel

Adbrowne

Adbrowne wrote: »

Do you genuinely think O'Mahony will get to tour? I cant see him getting picked barring injuries

Faletau, Warburton, Lydiate, Billy V, Haskell (back from injury soon), Nathan Hughes all in the mix. Can add Strauss and Hardie from scotland as possibles too.

Itoje and Henderson are also options for the backrow too depending on what locks travel

O'Mahony may struggle to make the Irish team this season, never mind the Lions. Not sure about what contribution we may make to the forwards but my thoughts would be along the lines of:

Front row I'd expect Jack McGrath to travel, maybe Healy if he gets into form this season and Furlong / Moore if they have a good season may put their hands up but wouldn't currently be in consideration.

Second row only Henderson, Toner perhaps if there are injuries and we want a solid line out option but unlikely as he isn't dynamic enough around the park for a Lions selection (though he shamed DeJager and Eztebeth in the first SA test and they are arguable two best in the world). Ultan Dillane has the pedigree and could be in with a shout.

Back row Heaslip doesn't seem to be slowing down so wouldn't be surprised to see him travel as team captain. CJ has earned a right to be considered and if SOB get's back into any kind of form he'll be on the plane, at his near best he is good enough, at his best he is unparalleled.

Outside of that there are a bunch of guys in prime position to have serious break through seasons, will have to wait and see - add's an interesting context to the season though!

bilston

Heaslip as team captain?

Flip that's some call. At the moment he is probably third choice behind Vunipola and Faletau (although I'm not sure if there is any word on his injury yet). Heaslip will do well to make the tour never mind be captain.

Adbrowne

bilston wrote: »

Heaslip as team captain?

Flip that's some call. At the moment he is probably third choice behind Vunipola and Faletau (although I'm not sure if there is any word on his injury yet). Heaslip will do well to make the tour never mind be captain.

Hughes is also an option too. I think Ireland will have a small contingent this time. Also Hartley is being tipped as a potential captain.

The Rape of Lucretia

Deleted User wrote: »

Ultan Dillane has the pedigree

From where ?


Could see Henderson make it if he has a big 6N and breaks through to be a real star.
Just cant see Healy getting back to that level at all. Would be happy at this stage he he could run out his career as at solid Leinster level. Dont think Henshaw will get a look in either.
Sexton will all depend on how the 6N goes, but think he could travel, though an unlikely test starter. Murray more likely to be in the mix than Sexton this time for me.

wp_rathead

bilston wrote: »

Heaslip as team captain?

Flip that's some call. At the moment he is probably third choice behind Vunipola and Faletau (although I'm not sure if there is any word on his injury yet). Heaslip will do well to make the tour never mind be captain.

Faletau only out for 3-4 weeks thankfully

bilston

bilston wrote: »

Heaslip as team captain?

Flip that's some call. At the moment he is probably third choice behind Vunipola and Faletau (although I'm not sure if there is any word on his injury yet). Heaslip will do well to make the tour never mind be captain.

Vunipola and Faletau are two terrific players, but Heaslip has a more all around game that in a Lions series will add serious value. He's hugely respected by other players also and has been on multiple Lions tours. Probably as good a non Welsh candidate as you could get.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

From where ?


Could see Henderson make it if he has a big 6N and breaks through to be a real star.
Just cant see Healy getting back to that level at all. Would be happy at this stage he he could run out his career as at solid Leinster level. Dont think Henshaw will get a look in either.
Sexton will all depend on how the 6N goes, but think he could travel, though an unlikely test starter. Murray more likely to be in the mix than Sexton this time for me.

Made the SA tour, minced a **** heap of internationals in the pro12 last season and has had a lot of our current internationals talking about him in almost Ferris style tones, Dillane is going to be a big player for Ireland over the next decade.

There is no reason why Healy couldn't get back to the player he was and as far as I'm concerned I'm looking to see if he could end up being better.

English Lurker

I'm surprised people are so down on O'Mahony. If you want a blindside who impacts either the lineout or the breakdown, then he's fairly close to top of the queue in these isles, nevermind if you want both. Still, no one would be all that surprised to see SOB or Stander in a Lions shirt either, which was my point. There's plenty of quality Irish guys who'd fit nicely into a Lions jersey. The fact some of them would sit on the bench for a full strength Irish 23 only illustrates my point further.

I would strongly disagree with the idea that Heaslip has a significantly better all around game than Faletau and given how far behind he is both Faletau and Vunipola as a carrier, I'm inclined to see him as a distant third choice.

I can see Dillane touring - he has the raw materials - but there is a glut of hyper-athletic locks available, most of them further ahead in their development. I think he'd need a considerable lucky break. Still, I think its likely one of Henderson and Dillane goes, simply because one of them starts in the 6N and that's a big advantage.

Incidentally, no one's talking about Best going, but there's three hookers going and I don't see who the three better than him are. Only reason I don't see him making the test team are those pressure throws/the ominous feeling I have about Hartley as captain.

Finally...

If Gatland does stay true to type, you can bet he has his eyes on McCloskey. Don't know if he'll come through quickly enough this year but could happen. Besides, Gatland can always take a risk on a few players and stick them in the dirt trackers if it doesn't pay off. He's probably the closest thing to prime Jamie Roberts available these days (including Jamie Roberts).

swiwi_

English Lurker wrote: »

I would strongly disagree with the idea that Heaslip has a significantly better all around game than Faletau and given how far behind he is both Faletau and Vunipola as a carrier, I'm inclined to see him as a distant third choice.

You need to lurk on the forum more, and learn the unwritten rules. When it comes to the Lions, if there is an Irish player in contention, especially if his opponent is not so much a forum favourite, then it's not so much arguing that the Irish player is better, but also making his opponent seem actually not very good at all, and not remotely in contention. Last Lions tour:

SOB vs Warburton
Sexton vs Farrell
Heaslip vs Faletau
BOD vs Davies
etc

Both Heaslip and Faletau have better all-round games than Vunipola - as you say though, Heaslip doesn't carry particularly forcefully.

As one of the NZ supporters, I can straight off say that Vunipola would strike the most fear: yes, he's a bit off a one-trick pony (although he is always improving his all-round game), but his one trick of absolutely monstering over the gain-line is the exact sort of thing required to beat NZ IMO.

Dog Botherer

Announced this morning that Richie Gray won't be available for the start of the tour because Toulouse won't release him. Definitely opens the door further for one of Henderson/Toner/Dillane to travel.

Yeah_Right

English Lurker wrote: »

I'm surprised people are so down on O'Mahony. If you want a blindside who impacts either the lineout or the breakdown, then he's fairly close to top of the queue in these isles, nevermind if you want both. Still, no one would be all that surprised to see SOB or Stander in a Lions shirt either, which was my point. There's plenty of quality Irish guys who'd fit nicely into a Lions jersey. The fact some of them would sit on the bench for a full strength Irish 23 only illustrates my point further.

I would strongly disagree with the idea that Heaslip has a significantly better all around game than Faletau and given how far behind he is both Faletau and Vunipola as a carrier, I'm inclined to see him as a distant third choice.

I can see Dillane touring - he has the raw materials - but there is a glut of hyper-athletic locks available, most of them further ahead in their development. I think he'd need a considerable lucky break. Still, I think its likely one of Henderson and Dillane goes, simply because one of them starts in the 6N and that's a big advantage.

Incidentally, no one's talking about Best going, but there's three hookers going and I don't see who the three better than him are. Only reason I don't see him making the test team are those pressure throws/the ominous feeling I have about Hartley as captain.

Finally...

If Gatland does stay true to type, you can bet he has his eyes on McCloskey. Don't know if he'll come through quickly enough this year but could happen. Besides, Gatland can always take a risk on a few players and stick them in the dirt trackers if it doesn't pay off. He's probably the closest thing to prime Jamie Roberts available these days (including Jamie Roberts).

That's so much like my thoughts it's scary. I'm wondering if I have a split personality. The likes of POM, SOB and Healy could all force their way in with a good, injury free season and a return to their top form. Heaslip is definitely behind Faletau and Vunipola but an injury to either puts him on the plane.

If Dillane progresses as much this season as he did last, he is in the conversation. He went from no where to being a certainty in the Irish 23.

I think there are several Irish players, including Best, who could push their way into the tour. They would need to have very good seasons because at the moment they're behind their competition. But there's no reason yet to say they're no chance.

Buer

People have very short memories in relation to POM. He's versatile, has some meanness to him and is an excellent player. I'd imagine he's a very strong personality around the camp too and one that would bring a lot to a squad setting. A real negative against him is the fact that Gatland has no prior exposure to him nor are any of the senior players likely to be Irish whose opinion may be sought.

As with any Lions squad, it's hugely dependent on the year that comes before it. Look at previous squads. You look at players that travelled or even made the test team and wonder how they did. They were simply the stand outs in that year. Hibbard, Cuthbert, Youngs, Ian Evans, Parling. All look peculiar now but all were the right calls at the time.

There are going to be guys going who haven't even been mentioned on this thread yet.

former total

Lydiate, if fit, is probably still the front runner for 6. POM is definitely good enough to travel but he needs a great season.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

O'Mahony may struggle to make the Irish team this season, never mind the Lions. Not sure about what contribution we may make to the forwards but my thoughts would be along the lines of:

Front row I'd expect Jack McGrath to travel, maybe Healy if he gets into form this season and Furlong / Moore if they have a good season may put their hands up but wouldn't currently be in consideration.

Second row only Henderson, Toner perhaps if there are injuries and we want a solid line out option but unlikely as he isn't dynamic enough around the park for a Lions selection (though he shamed DeJager and Eztebeth in the first SA test and they are arguable two best in the world). Ultan Dillane has the pedigree and could be in with a shout.

Back row Heaslip doesn't seem to be slowing down so wouldn't be surprised to see him travel as team captain. CJ has earned a right to be considered and if SOB get's back into any kind of form he'll be on the plane, at his near best he is good enough, at his best he is unparalleled.

Outside of that there are a bunch of guys in prime position to have serious break through seasons, will have to wait and see - add's an interesting context to the season though!

Heaslip hasn't a prayer of making the test team unfortunately, he may not even get to tour never mind captain.

Gatland picked two 8s last time, if he does the same again it'll definitely be Vunipola and Faletau barring injury.

Dog Botherer

former total wrote: »

Lydiate, if fit, is probably still the front runner for 6. POM is definitely good enough to travel but he needs a great season.

Lydiate's form has regressed to the point where Moriarty and Tipuric are putting his place in the matchday 23 at risk, never mind starting. Much like several other players mentioned above, he needs a big season.