Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

English Lurker

DGRulz wrote: »

We could win the Grand Slam in March and it'll only mean quality English and Scottish players being left off the tour and at best an equal number of Irish and Welch. The Welch players know how Garland wants to play so they'll be picked regardless.

One thing has to be said after last night though. Unless we ship some very heavy defeats before December Farrell has to be the Defence coach.

I am possibly being a deluded optimist but...

If you watch the Welsh tour of New Zealand, they were playing a fair bit different to what is associated with Gatland. And while they didn't do a bad job, they weren't great at it either.

So hopefully it isn't just who knows how to play Gatlandball.

And hopefully Gatland has spotted what everyone else has, namely that Wales are firmly 3rd of 4th.

Dave_The_Sheep

Lads, we're still a long long way away from Lions selection. Still a load of AIs and the 6N to go yet. Plenty to change.

The Lost Sheep

chupacabra wrote: »

Right so, a lot of lads putting their hands up for selection after last nights win (still cant believe it).

Yeah based on last night but that's just one game...

bilston wrote: »

Beating NZ has to count a lot.

Given the Welsh performance yesterday you'd have to think that the various predicted squads from everyone will be getting a bit of an update.

That said the 6Ns will always be the main criteria for squad selection. But beating NZ is a close second.

Before yesterday I'd have said McGrath, Murray and Sexton were our only certain picks (injury allowing). Henshaw is now in that bracket IMO. The likes of Best, Toner, Stander and Heaslip have enhanced their chances and Furlong and Van Der Flier will now be part of the conversation, before they probably weren't. Kearney is back in contention as well. Actually every one of the starting XV have given themselves a chance. Trimble was amazing defensively and Zebo showed some nice touches as well.

6Ns will be number one but if we've another good performance in 2 weeks v NZ and win other 2 AIs we'll have a jump on players from the other 3 nations.

DGRulz wrote: »

We could win the Grand Slam in March and it'll only mean quality English and Scottish players being left off the tour and at best an equal number of Irish and Welch. The Welch players know how Garland wants to play so they'll be picked regardless.

One thing has to be said after last night though. Unless we ship some very heavy defeats before December Farrell has to be the Defence coach.

I disagree with that. Gatland isnt going to be that loyal.

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

Plus Gatland rates Henshaw, he wanted to cap him when he was 19 for Wales ( Henshaw is eligible for Wales)

Henshaw isn't eligibile for Wales. Where are you getting this idea from?

Adbrowne

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Henshaw isn't eligibile for Wales. Where are you getting this idea from?

Confusing Henshaw with Marmion perhaps. The spit of each other makes it tough to tell them apart.

Adbrowne

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Lads, we're still a long long way away from Lions selection. Still a load of AIs and the 6N to go yet. Plenty to change.

True but if your talking about taking a step in the right direction then

Furlong, Stander, Heaslip, VDF [Bolter-ish], Henshaw and Zebo all took big steps.

Murray, Sexton, McGrath are going barring injury.


Furlong is going to be a massive player for Leinster and Ireland. Dont think Ross will be wearing the green jersey again

Cathalthesmart

Furlong has a serious chance, not many quality tight heads out of the 4 nations.

Dan Coles probably the best

WP Nel sums up the slim pickings
Lee is just typical welsh hyped player ( similar to those who said Webb/Bigger where actually good enough to start for the Lions. :D:D)

Plus Furlong is still very young in comparison to the others.

Bazzo

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Henshaw isn't eligibile for Wales. Where are you getting this idea from?

Gatland did speak to Henshaw about it: http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/gatland-i-asked-henshaw-to-play-for-wales-29709412.html

Adbrowne wrote: »

Confusing Henshaw with Marmion perhaps. The spit of each other makes it tough to tell them apart.

Actually I'm not sure if Marmion qualifies for Wales :P. Two Irish parents & born in England. He was raised in Wales so he would have satisfied the residency rule but I believe once you leave the country you're no longer eligibile.

Adbrowne

Espn lions team of the week is ireland 1-15. I know only two teams played, just thought that was funny.

Neil3030

If Gatland did speak to Henshaw when the latter was 19, that's just hilarious. How deep does that man's research into massive inside centres go? He probably had young Brewer on his radar too.

English Lurker

Furlong's big advantage in going for the squad is he's so much quicker than the alternatives. If you're after beating New Zealand, then you want 15 guys who'll keep up with their lads whenever they try to stretch the game. You might get away with 14 but you want 15. Cole, Nel, Lee... they'll struggle with that. Doubt think you'll see them up with the kick chase cutting down full-backs.

Long road yet but if he keeps starting and impressing he's got a big chance in my book.


Speaking of Irish front rows, I wonder if the odds just got cut on Best as a tour captain. Think a lot depends on the head to head between him and Hartley next spring (with all due respect to the compelling claims of Warburton and AWJ).

Teferi

English Lurker wrote: »

Furlong's big advantage in going for the squad is he's so much quicker than the alternatives. If you're after beating New Zealand, then you want 15 guys who'll keep up with their lads whenever they try to stretch the game. You might get away with 14 but you want 15. Cole, Nel, Lee... they'll struggle with that. Doubt think you'll see them up with the kick chase cutting down full-backs.

Long road yet but if he keeps starting and impressing he's got a big chance in my book.


Speaking of Irish front rows, I wonder if the odds just got cut on Best as a tour captain. Think a lot depends on the head to head between him and Hartley next spring (with all due respect to the compelling claims of Warburton and AWJ).

I'm fairly sure that Warren Gatland would name James Hook as Lions captain before he would name Best captain. Gats doesn't seem to like him for whatever reason.

English Lurker

Teferi wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that Warren Gatland would name James Hook as Lions captain before he would name Best captain. Gats doesn't seem to like him for whatever reason.

To be fair, you can't go wrong with Captain Hook.


Not sure Gatland does dislike him. 2013 was the end of the season where Rory Best forgot how to throw, I think any coach would have ignored him then. Maybe he was hard done by in 2009 - honestly can't remember that far back.

Could be you're right though. End of the day though, there's only two candidates who've captained a win against the All Blacks, and the world will piss itself laughing if he goes for Robshaw. If Best can get on the right end of a Grand Slam as well... well, we'll see.

AbusesToilets

It'll be Warburton again if he's fit, or AWJ. Probably AWJ now that I think about. I hope for Best's sake he can stay in form. He's been the best Hooker in the NH for ages. His collapse in form for the last tour was a real shame.

sydthebeat

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

Furlong has a serious chance, not many quality tight heads out of the 4 nations.

Dan Coles probably the best

WP Nel sums up the slim pickings
Lee is just typical welsh hyped player ( similar to those who said Webb/Bigger where actually good enough to start for the Lions. :D:D)

Plus Furlong is still very young in comparison to the others.

Samson lee is actually younger than tadhg.

pickarooney

Webb, Biggar and Lee are all good enough to start for the Lions in my book. They might not be my preferred starters but they're solid internationals and would not be out of place.

As with the Lions tour - the player pool and those in form will look dramatically different in March / April when the real selection debate gets underway.

We're definitely looking like being healthy contributors especially as we'll be the only NH team to beat NZ in advance of the Lions (unless there is a miracle in Italy or Paris).

swiwi_

I personally think Schmidt should avoid the lions. It takes a "special" Kiwi (Gatland) to be not only disliked outside his homeland but also inside it.

He appears to want to go down the same route as Woodward by antagonising as many kiwis as possible, burning all his bridges.

As Schmidt showed you can be a gentleman and still defeat NZ.

b.gud

Neil3030 wrote: »

If Gatland did speak to Henshaw when the latter was 19, that's just hilarious. How deep does that man's research into massive inside centres go? He probably had young Brewer on his radar too.

Gatland actually approached Henshaw when he was 18, by the time he was 19 he had been capped by Ireland.

He asked him if he had any Welsh links in 2013 when Henshaw was in 6n camp with Ireland and Gatland was visitors Lions coach

bestleftfull3

Is anyone making the trip over for this?
Living in melbourne and planning to make the trip over, have bought tickets for two of the non test games and hoping to get to the first test game in Auckland!

Acquiring tickets for that so far has been difficult. I've entered the Team all blacks ballot but unfortunately received two unsuccessful emails

All other avenues seems to be through packages

Dog Botherer

Early days I know, but surely an all Irish Lions backrow is very possible? Heaslip, Stander, O'Brien, Van Der Flier, O'Mahony, possibly even Jordi Murphy and Leavy could well be in contention come next year. Looking at Wales, Scotland, and England, it's very difficult to pick out anyone who'd get into an Irish backrow, or even bench. Warburton, maybe, if he ever finds his form of about 3 years ago? Vunipola was barnstorming in the 6 Nations but Heaslip's all round game is on another level. Robshaw and Haskell are workmanlike but wouldn't bring anything special. Scotland always seem to have a bevy of very decent flankers but no world class ones jump out.

Wouldn't be shocked though if Lydiate started against the AB's, knowing Gatty.

Clegg

An all Ireland backrow is possible as they're all in fine form but it just won't happen. There'll be uproar if Vunipola isn't selected and Faletau is a world class 8 as well. Lydiate should've get in the squad. Just too limited a player. We've seen that the way to beat NZ is by attacking non stop. He isn't a good enough carrier.

What'll really be interesting is the selection at open side. If SoB can stay fit he's the best 7 in the northern hemisphere. But Gatland will still make Warburton captain.

corny

Heaslip won't travel. Vunipola is guaranteed a place and across the water Faletau is held in a higher regard. Warburton will probably be captain again. O'Brien or Stander might get the other position but far from certain.

joshrogan

Who's everyones starting hooker? Hartley or Best? Hartley has never lost as England captain but over the 2 tests vs NZ Best was Ireland's man of the series IMO.

Felix Jones is God

joshrogan wrote: »

Who's everyones starting hooker? Hartley or Best? Hartley has never lost as England captain but over the 2 tests vs NZ Best was Ireland's man of the series IMO.

Hartley is nailed on at the moment

Teferi

corny wrote: »

Heaslip won't travel. Vunipola is guaranteed a place and across the water Faletau is held in a higher regard. Warburton will probably be captain again. O'Brien or Stander might get the other position but far from certain.

If Heaslip maintains his current form I think he has a good chance of travelling. He won't start but he offers something a little different to the other possible 8's on the tour.

Kal El

corny wrote: »

Heaslip won't travel. Vunipola is guaranteed a place and across the water Faletau is held in a higher regard. Warburton will probably be captain again. O'Brien or Stander might get the other position but far from certain.

How can you rule out a player who just got nominated for world player of the year

corny

Teferi wrote: »

If Heaslip maintains his current form I think he has a good chance of travelling. He won't start but he offers something a little different to the other possible 8's on the tour.

Kal El wrote: »

How can you rule out a player who just got nominated for world player of the year

I'd start Heaslip on current form but I don't pick the team. Heaslip is the easiest to leave out for Gatland. The way his team play is he going to ignore Vunipola, the most powerful carrier in B&I? I don't think so.

I'm not convinced he's going to leave out Faletau either. The Welsh think the man can walk on water. I know Heaslip started in SA but Faletaus profile has grown considerably since then. The Wales coach leaving him out is inconceivable imo.

Bar drastic form issues or injury i think thats valid.

Quint2010

Can't see Warburton being captain. He's too injury prone plus Wales are rubbish at the moment compared to Ireland and England. The Lions will be dominated by England with Ireland next. Can only see an English captain but that might depend if Ireland can do a grand slam because its the only way they will beat England to a 6n title.

Cathalthesmart

Against NZ i'd be more inclined to go with Heaslip or Faletau. Vunipola is destructive going forward but lets be blunt, he's a fat f*ck and a team with the pace of NZ will target him and simply run rings around him because he can't run and has nothing to his game except bash players which NZ will lap up all day. Against any other team on the planet fair enough that will work but not against NZ especially in NZ.

Clegg

The Express say Rob Howley will be appointed attack coach for the Lions. If this comes to fruition then we're ****ed. Wales have no attacking gameplan that can scare NZ.

irishbucsfan

Clegg wrote: »

The Express say Rob Howley will be appointed attack coach for the Lions. If this comes to fruition then we're ****ed. Wales have no attacking gameplan that can scare NZ.

Why. Why. Why.

awec

I'm telling you, the Lions may not win a single game over there.

Kal El

Clegg wrote: »

The Express say Rob Howley will be appointed attack coach for the Lions. If this comes to fruition then we're ****ed. Wales have no attacking gameplan that can scare NZ.

What logic could possibly come into that thinking

Adbrowne

Kal El wrote: »

What logic could possibly come into that thinking

You do know who the Lions coach is?

Plan A - Roberts on the crash ball up the middle
Plan B - Plan A on repeat
Plan C - Plan A then Plan B.

Kal El

Adbrowne wrote: »

You do know who the Lions coach is?

Plan A - Roberts on the crash ball up the middle
Plan B - Plan A on repeat
Plan C - Plan A then Plan B.

I like it............wait no no I dont. :mad:
If Roberts gets hurt??
Does Henshaw fill the gap in the plan

On the plus side the plan does allow us to get all the lookers in the team sure they arent going to be at much else.

Bring back Henson, Kearney at fb, Cipriani at ten to pop the ball to Roberts, we may not win but dam we will look good :pac:

Cathalthesmart

awec wrote: »

I'm telling you, the Lions may not win a single game over there.

Not win a single game? we won't even come close in a single game if Howley has any role to play in the Lions team, him being picked as attack coach indicates that Gatland will still probably pick Welsh players despite how dreadful they have been. If all this happens I won't be saying "we" when I talk about the Lions, not getting behind this nonsense if Gatland isn't even objective enough to see that Howley is simply not good enough to be an attack coach at this level and most of the Welsh players he will likely choose aren't either.

Connacht2KXX

I know it is crazy looking at a Lions team this far out but I cant see much deviation from this XV by Gatland:
1 McGrath
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Itoje
5 AWJ
6 Lydiate
7 Warburton (c)
8 Vunipola
9 Murray
10 Biggar (assuming Sexton will be injured)
11 North
12 Roberts
13 Davies/Tuilagi
14 May
15 Halfpenny

If Warburton isn't captain, I could see Hartley as captain with a backrow of 6. Warburton 7. Haskell/SOB 8. Vunipola or with Lydiate in at 6 for Warburton.

If this team is picked with Howley as head coach, then I can't see us winning any of the tests and will struggle to beat the club teams.

bilston

AWJ would be my choice for captain, but he has a lot of competition in the second row in Itoje, Kruis, Toner, Gray, Launchbury and Lawes etc etc.

Appointing someone with national loyalties is asking for trouble. We got away with it in 2013 because Wales were the best side at the time and deserved the level of selection they got. At the moment, based on the last few weeks anyway, they are arguably the weakest of the Home Nations, so if current form continues Gatland will have some very difficult choices to make given he has to go back to work in Wales in September 2017.

Clegg

Roberts shouldn't even be travelling with the Lions. If we're looking at centres there are at least 4 who have been better than him for a long time. If they're that desperate for a crash ball centre Henshaw does it better than Roberts plus he's a better athlete and footballer.

Wouldn't be having Halfpenny in the side either tbh. He isn't offering enough as a fullback to justify his place. Goalkicking isn't enough.

thomond2006

If Sexton goes on the tour and starts the tests then he should be rested until 2017. Lions Tours are potentially career shortening.

Connacht2KXX

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Sexton goes on the tour and starts the tests then he should be rested until 2017. Lions Tours are potentially career shortening.

Let's pray he doesn't make the tour.

thomond2006

Connacht2KXX wrote: »

Let's pray he doesn't make the tour.

He'll make the tour bar a loss of form. Aside from everything else he has credit in the bank with Gatland from 2013.

bilston

bilston wrote: »

AWJ would be my choice for captain, but he has a lot of competition in the second row in Itoje, Kruis, Toner, Gray, Launchbury and Lawes etc etc.

Appointing someone with national loyalties is asking for trouble. We got away with it in 2013 because Wales were the best side at the time and deserved the level of selection they got. At the moment, based on the last few weeks anyway, they are arguably the weakest of the Home Nations, so if current form continues Gatland will have some very difficult choices to make given he has to go back to work in Wales in September 2017.

Isn't it amazing that Toner is in the conversation for the Lions. I mean you don't have to go back far at all to see countless posts that he is about to be replaced by "x" or "y" and is only in the team because of injuries and what not.

Hugely important player for us now.

molloyjh

Clegg wrote: »

The Express say Rob Howley will be appointed attack coach for the Lions. If this comes to fruition then we're ****ed. Wales have no attacking gameplan that can scare NZ.

Well if that's the case we may as well concede defeat now. What kind of logic is there behind selecting a head coach and an attack coach from a team that has one of the worst records given their talent against SH opposition of any kind? Wales struggle with Fiji and Samoa, let alone New Zealand. What exactly are these guys going to bring to the table to ensure success with the Lions that they've abjectly failed to bring to the table at Wales? Is it that nobody else wants the job?

former total

Surely Rob Howley's stock is plummeting by the day??

I'd love to see Townsend appointed as backs/attack coach but it was rumoured that the SRU wouldn't release him.

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

Well if that's the case we may as well concede defeat now. What kind of logic is there behind selecting a head coach and an attack coach from a team that has one of the worst records given their talent against SH opposition of any kind? Wales struggle with Fiji and Samoa, let alone New Zealand. What exactly are these guys going to bring to the table to ensure success with the Lions that they've abjectly failed to bring to the table at Wales? Is it that nobody else wants the job?

Howley would be a disaster but, just to play devil's advocate, who are the other genuine options?

Schmidt is out. Jones looks after England's attack. Townsend is apparently out.

thomond2006

Demanding that an international coach stand down for the season is really hamstringing the Lions. What benefit is there to limit your choices in this way?

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

Howley would be a disaster but, just to play devil's advocate, who are the other genuine options?

Schmidt is out. Jones looks after England's attack. Townsend is apparently out.

Ethel.

I'm almost serious at this stage.

thomond2006 wrote: »

Demanding that an international coach stand down for the season is really hamstringing the Lions. What benefit is there to limit your choices in this way?

Are they demanding that for the assistants or just the head coach? Thought Gatland was the only one who had to do that. SRU won't release Townsend because he is only taking over in June. They don't want to push his starting date out and have the AIs as his first set of games.

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

Are they demanding that for the assistants or just the head coach? Thought Gatland was the only one who had to do that. SRU won't release Townsend because he is only taking over in June. They don't want to push his starting date out and have the AIs as his first set of games.

I don't know. I do find it odd that the unions are resisting releasing their coaches. Wouldn't the unions make more money from a winning series? Think of the merchandise sales alone.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Are they demanding that for the assistants or just the head coach?

They're hardly demanding that for Howley given he's the one who was picked to replace Gatland