Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

awec · 09-09-2016 9:17am

I think Dylan Hartley will be captain for what it's worth.

swiwi_ · 09-09-2016 9:35am

Who I would currently pick to try to defeat NZ. Grunt in the forwards, speed in the backs, niggly players to get Dane Coles a YC for retaliation, 3 lineout options (essential with NZ's defensive lineout at present).

15. Williams
14. Watson
13. Henshaw
12. Farrell
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Webb
8. Vunipola
7. Warburton
6. Stander
5. Itoje
4. Kruis
3. Cole
2. Hartley (c)
1. McGrath

Some of the Scottish centres might do better with a better calibre of player around them, could be dark horses for the squad.

Adbrowne · 09-09-2016 9:42am

swiwi_ wrote: »

Who I would currently pick to try to defeat NZ. Grunt in the forwards, speed in the backs, niggly players to get Dane Coles a YC for retaliation, 3 lineout options (essential with NZ's defensive lineout at present).

15. Williams
14. Watson
13. Henshaw
12. Farrell
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Webb
8. Vunipola
7. Warburton
6. Stander
5. Itoje
4. Kruis
3. Cole
2. Hartley (c)
1. McGrath

Some of the Scottish centres might do better with a better calibre of player around them, could be dark horses for the squad.

If 3 lineout options are required then Henderson or Itoje at 6 with 2 from Kruis/gray /awj at lock is possblility. This 6n will be much better

swiwi_ · 09-09-2016 9:52am

Adbrowne wrote: »

If 3 lineout options are required then Henderson or Itoje at 6 with 2 from Kruis/gray /awj at lock is possblility. This 6n will be much better

Yeah, I went Kruis/Itoje/Warburton, but Warburton might not be good enough as a jumper.

At the moment Whitelock and Read are forming a formidable defensive lineout for NZ, and the Lions will definitely need more than just the 2 options at lock.

I think Itoje is better at lock than 6, but lots of people are sticking him at 6.

Stander/Lydiate/POM etc are not really great lineout options at 6 I don't think....maybe Stephen Jones will suggest Tom Croft :P

Adbrowne · 09-09-2016 9:58am

Buer wrote: »

People have very short memories in relation to POM. He's versatile, has some meanness to him and is an excellent player. I'd imagine he's a very strong personality around the camp too and one that would bring a lot to a squad setting. A real negative against him is the fact that Gatland has no prior exposure to him nor are any of the senior players likely to be Irish whose opinion may be sought.

Competition in the backrow is massive and he has been out for a year. He is directly competing against some for 6/8 but there is a lot of competition for 6-7 spots and barring injury (and major form drops) I would say Warburton, Faletau, Billy V and Haskell are on the plane.

Backrow options By country ......
Stander, SoB, Heaslip and Henderson
Hardie, Strauss
Lydiate, Faletau, Warburton, Tipuric, Moriarty (Davies from GB 7s is a dark horse)
Billy V, Haskell, Robshaw and Hughes. Clifford too if he has big year

09-09-2016 9:58am

No way is AWJ not starting. I think he'll be captain tbh.

Adbrowne · 09-09-2016 10:01am

swiwi_ wrote: »

Yeah, I went Kruis/Itoje/Warburton, but Warburton might not be good enough as a jumper.

At the moment Whitelock and Read are forming a formidable defensive lineout for NZ, and the Lions will definitely need more than just the 2 options at lock.

I think Itoje is better at lock than 6, but lots of people are sticking him at 6.

Stander/Lydiate/POM etc are not really great lineout options at 6 I don't think....maybe Stephen Jones will suggest Tom Croft :P

a lot depends on Itoje (and Henderson). If they are brought as locks only, or will Gatland look at a forward dominance game (think its only way Lions can win).

swiwi_ · 09-09-2016 10:10am

Deleted User wrote: »

No way is AWJ not starting. I think he'll be captain tbh.

Would be delighted myself. Form has been average. Maybe he picks it up for the 6N.

09-09-2016 10:12am

swiwi_ wrote: »

Would be delighted myself. Form has been average. Maybe he picks it up for the 6N.

Big game player though.

Hippo · 09-09-2016 10:16am

swiwi_ wrote: »

15. Williams
14. Watson
13. Henshaw
12. Farrell
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Webb
8. Vunipola
7. Warburton
6. Stander
5. Itoje
4. Kruis
3. Cole
2. Hartley (c)
1. McGrath

Hard to argue with most of that, though I think I'd prefer Murray at 9

wp_rathead · 09-09-2016 10:34am

Hippo wrote: »

Hard to argue with most of that, though I think I'd prefer Murray at 9

Ah no, a fit Rhys Webb is probably best scrum half in Northern Hemisphere (I say this as a Murray fan)

flangemeistro · 09-09-2016 11:03am

On what form is everyone basing Sextons starting position at 10?
He's a defensive liability the way he tackles and is nearly guaranteed to go off the pitch with the aid of a medic and an ice pack on his head at around 60 minutes.
All Johnnys credit that he had in the bank is long spent and he's constantly dipping into his overdraft.
Farrell, Biggar and Ford are definitely ahead in the pecking order and after the Six Nations Russell might even be ahead of him.

molloyjh · 09-09-2016 1:39pm

flangemeistro wrote: »

He's a defensive liability the way he tackles ...

What!? Sexton is one of the best defensive 10s going. Whatever about the rest of the post (Sextons form hasn't been great lately all right) the above is just nonsense. He isn't playing as badly as you're making out though. He actually played some really good stuff during the 6Ns and has been part of a seriously underperforming Leinster squad. How much of that has been him, and how much those around him is hard to say.

English Lurker · 09-09-2016 2:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

No way is AWJ not starting. I think he'll be captain tbh.

Not if he keeps playing the way he's been doing this year so far. I suppose Gatland could do so anyway but on recent showings I don't think he should be on the plane.

Few other points...

- Nathan Hughes is off the boil for Wasps. Needs a big season.

- Vunipola's all round game is coming on nicely to be fair. A lot more getting over the ball at the breakdown (where he is a nightmare to move).

- Lydiate would be another mistake. Also, based on what Gatland said about looking for pace/footwork/size/power, I think Lydiate might be for the chop for this tour.

- I greatly prefer Murray's decision making to Webb's.

Felix Jones is God · 09-09-2016 2:59pm

awec wrote: »

I think Dylan Hartley will be captain for what it's worth.

Best choice overall regardless of what some may think

09-09-2016 3:09pm

molloyjh wrote: »

What!? Sexton is one of the best defensive 10s going. Whatever about the rest of the post (Sextons form hasn't been great lately all right) the above is just nonsense. He isn't playing as badly as you're making out though. He actually played some really good stuff during the 6Ns and has been part of a seriously underperforming Leinster squad. How much of that has been him, and how much those around him is hard to say.

Sexton was all over the shop last season and was clearly carrying multiple injuries from before the six nations. Leinster couldn't afford not to play him and Ireland were trying to utilise him as sparingly as possible.

I would hope that his health is spot on and he is good to go this season. We have a decent shot at the 6N this year but need both him and Jackson to be on form, our game is more reliant on effective distribution (kicking and passing) from our outhalves than other teams so it's noticable when our first choice guys aren't available.

The most positive aspect of the SA tour was how well Jackson has matured and it's odd that he hasn't been mentioned at all regarding the Lions, big season ahead could do wonders for a player that seems to have stepped up lately.

sydthebeat · 09-09-2016 3:35pm

English Lurker wrote: »

- Lydiate would be another mistake. Also, based on what Gatland said about looking for pace/footwork/size/power, I think Lydiate might be for the chop for this tour.
.

;);)

we see what you did there !

awec · 09-09-2016 3:38pm

Can't see Jackson getting ahead of Sexton or Biggar.

Only two 10s went last time, and I presume Farrell will travel as a 10/12 option.

Bigbok · 09-09-2016 5:51pm

molloyjh wrote: »

What!? Sexton is one of the best defensive 10s going. Whatever about the rest of the post (Sextons form hasn't been great lately all right) the above is just nonsense. He isn't playing as badly as you're making out though. He actually played some really good stuff during the 6Ns and has been part of a seriously underperforming Leinster squad. How much of that has been him, and how much those around him is hard to say.

TBH sexton must have the worst tackle technique in any 10,always gets his head the wrong side of a tackle and that's going to cause him a serious injury one day

flogthebog · 09-09-2016 10:19pm

what size of a squad do the lions travel with. with 10 competitive games after an attritional season you would think the best part of 60 players. obviously for the tests you need your primary 15 plus backup 15. then you need teams to play the secondary games with further backup players

Adbrowne · 09-09-2016 10:26pm

flogthebog wrote: »

what size of a squad do the lions travel with. with 10 competitive games after an attritional season you would think the best part of 60 players. obviously for the tests you need your primary 15 plus backup 15. then you need teams to play the secondary games with further backup players

I think 37 went in original party last time and a further 11-12 were called up at different stages of the tour.

Interested Observer · 09-09-2016 10:27pm

awec wrote: »

I think Dylan Hartley will be captain for what it's worth.

I was chatting to a guy in work about this yesterday and we really struggled for candidates outside of him and Warburton. I think you could be right.

sydthebeat · 09-09-2016 10:29pm

flogthebog wrote: »

what size of a squad do the lions travel with. with 10 competitive games after an attritional season you would think the best part of 60 players. obviously for the tests you need your primary 15 plus backup 15. then you need teams to play the secondary games with further backup players

2013 had 10 games as well, and they travelled with 37 initally but called up 4 more as cover due to injuries

will probably travel this time with 38ish

flogthebog · 09-09-2016 10:32pm

Adbrowne wrote: »

I think 37 went in original party last time and a further 11-12 were called up at different stages of the tour.

wow, thats a surprisingly low number. ireland had 32 players in SA for a 3 match series.

awec · 09-09-2016 10:36pm

I'd say the same number but the games this time are much more difficult. The NZ super rugby franchises are much stronger for a start, also there is no gimme game like in 2013 in the middle of the series (the combined county one), instead there is a game against the AB Maoris.

Would expect 37/38 to tour and players to drop like flies all through the tour.

flogthebog · 09-09-2016 10:44pm

well if they depart same weekend as pro12/ english premiership final (think I am correct on this?) and play first game same weekend as top14 final you would have to think they must be departing with a secondary squad? Which is why I thought the squad numbers would be higher than suggested

awec · 09-09-2016 10:45pm

It was the same last time if I remember right, the barbarians game overlapped.

bilston · 09-09-2016 11:44pm

The centres may be a bit of a problem. There aren't really any standouts. Davies at his best is the 13, what about 12. Gatland will probably favour Roberts, not because he's Welsh, but because he is big. I have a feeling Farrell may be 10.

Right now I'd have Hogg at 15 and North and probably Williams on the wing. Apart from North are there any other outstanding wingers? Williams is a top player, admittedly mainly from 15. I'd go Murray at 9. He's big and physical, Gatland will like that.

15 Hogg
14 Williams
13 Davies
12 Roberts
11 North
10 Farrell
9 Murray

Forwards wise, I'd say Haskell, Warburton and Vunipola in the back row. Itoje and Kruis in the second row, although I'm a huge AWJ fan and ideally would have him as skipper.

McGrath and Hartley at 1 and 2. Samson Lee maybe at TH. Cole and Nel being the other options.

Bolter wise it will be interesting to see what sort of season Furlong has.

bilston · 09-09-2016 11:52pm

Deleted User wrote: »

molloyjh wrote: »

What!? Sexton is one of the best defensive 10s going. Whatever about the rest of the post (Sextons form hasn't been great lately all right) the above is just nonsense. He isn't playing as badly as you're making out though. He actually played some really good stuff during the 6Ns and has been part of a seriously underperforming Leinster squad. How much of that has been him, and how much those around him is hard to say.

Sexton was all over the shop last season and was clearly carrying multiple injuries from before the six nations. Leinster couldn't afford not to play him and Ireland were trying to utilise him as sparingly as possible.

I would hope that his health is spot on and he is good to go this season. We have a decent shot at the 6N this year but need both him and Jackson to be on form, our game is more reliant on effective distribution (kicking and passing) from our outhalves than other teams so it's noticable when our first choice guys aren't available.

The most positive aspect of the SA tour was how well Jackson has matured and it's odd that he hasn't been mentioned at all regarding the Lions, big season ahead could do wonders for a player that seems to have stepped up lately.

Regular posters will know that I'm a big Jackson supporter but while certainly not impossible there are a lot of quality 10s in Britain and Ireland. Farrell, Sexton, Biggar, Ford and Russell for a start, watch this space regarding Henry Slade as well. Sam Davies is another potential bolter. The issue for Slade and Davies is that they may be moved from pillar to post position wise. Jackson has a chance but given that as things stand he is likely to be No.2 for Ireland and given he lacks versatility then I think he'll need an injury to Sexton to get a look in.

bmwguy · 10-09-2016 11:49am

I have completely gone off lions tours. I will watch the matches but I have found myself completely indifferent to whether they win or lose. I don't see them representing me like I do with the Ireland team.

I was on the tour in south Africa 09, was great trip, so much to do and see plus you knew there was big rugby on everywhere you went people were talking about it. I was in Australia in 2013 when it was on and it was rubbish, I only went to 1 midweek match didn't bother with the tests, the Australian people for the most part had no interest.

Firstly, picking a lions team this far out, while it's a bit of fun, is a fallacy. Things change so much, injuries and form.

New Zealand at the moment are awesome, 2 world cups in a row, lose a lot of their starting team this year and somehow they seem better. Lions have a very slim chance of winning a test never mind the series. In fact, from what I hear about the super rugby sides and the maoris lining up the strongest sides they can I think the lions will win only 4 or 5 of the 10 matches.

I know times have changed and player welfare is different than it was but you are looking at 45-48 players touring that's at least 3 full starting teams from the 4 nations it chooses from. So realistically 3 out of every 4 international regulars will be a Lions player next year, its so diluted now.

Interestingly, Warren G has said Ireland players have a great chance to put up their hands for selection by virtue of playing new Zealand twice in November, but equally what damage will be done if there are 2 hidings?

Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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