Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

Teferi · 06-09-2016 7:29pm #1

https://twitter.com/Old_Pens_RFC/status/773199974800748544

MOD WARNING: This thread or the Lions tour is not to be used as a provincial pissing contest. Any provincial bickering or jabbing will result in bans.

awec · 06-09-2016 7:34pm

Well that is some awful news right there.

molloyjh · 06-09-2016 7:41pm

Ah we all knew he'd be named as coach. Its disappointing but as it stands I can't see Ireland being hugely represented anyway. Combine that with Gatland as coach and NZ as our opponents (and what that means competitively) and it's not something that's going to garner huge interest here. It's a foregone conclusion with little Irish involvement.

ClanofLams · 06-09-2016 7:41pm

awec wrote: »

Well that is some awful news right there.

Depends on your perspective. Ireland keep Schmidt for the 6N is more important for me.

Teferi · 06-09-2016 7:43pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah we all knew he'd be named as coach. Its disappointing but as it stands I can't see Ireland being hugely represented anyway. Combine that with Gatland as coach and NZ as our opponents (and what that means competitively) and it's not something that's going to garner huge interest here. It's a foregone conclusion with little Irish involvement.

What irish players do you reckon will be involved? Do you think it will be majority English/Welsh?

awec · 06-09-2016 7:50pm

Irish guys who went to Australia:

Rory Best
Tom Court
Cian Healy
Paul O'Connell
Sean O'Brien
Jamie Heaslip
Conor Murray
Jonathan Sexton
Brian O'Driscoll
Tommy Bowe
Simon Zebo
Rob Kearney

Breaking these guys down into categories (and ignoring all new players):

Definitely not travelling in 2017
POC
BOD
Best
Court
Bowe
Kearney

Most likely not going to travel, due to form or age or alternate options from other nations
Healy (Jack McGrath will take his spot)
Heaslip (I think he'll only bring 2 number 8s in Faletau and Vunipola)

Fighting for a spot
Zebo
SOB (needs to stay fit)

Place on plane assured
Murray
Sexton

bilston · 06-09-2016 7:53pm

I don't see too many nailed on Irish players at the moment, maybe just three actually

Jack McGrath
Conor Murray
Jonny Sexton

The likes of Iain Henderson, Sean O'Brien (if fit), Jamie Heaslip, Robbie Henshaw and Jared Payne have a very decent chance, but I wouldn't bet the house on any of them.

Teferi · 06-09-2016 7:55pm

Dillane as a dark horse bolter? If he puts in a good six nations, I could see him going and being part of the midweek team.

Cosmo Kramer · 06-09-2016 7:58pm

I thought it was a foregone conclusion anyway, let him off with them. They're on a hiding to nothing out there next summer, the fewer of our lads that are involved the better as far as I'm concerned. He got the easy tour in Australia and nearly messed it up, now he's getting the hardest tour. This will be the making or, more likely, the breaking of him.

thomond2006 · 06-09-2016 8:16pm

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I thought it was a foregone conclusion anyway, let him off with them. They're on a hiding to nothing out there next summer, the fewer of our lads that are involved the better as far as I'm concerned. He got the easy tour in Australia and nearly messed it up, now he's getting the hardest tour. This will be the making or, more likely, the breaking of him.

They will get well paid!

molloyjh · 06-09-2016 8:25pm

Teferi wrote: »

What irish players do you reckon will be involved? Do you think it will be majority English/Welsh?

As a few have already said McGrath, Murray and Sexton are the only nailed on Irish players. I think Toner might have a shot if he goes well this season. Other than that Heaslip and SOB are possibles but I wouldn't think are in the mix as it stands. Henshaw maybe. That's about it. Unless Stander can force his way in?

bilston · 06-09-2016 8:51pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Teferi wrote: »

What irish players do you reckon will be involved? Do you think it will be majority English/Welsh?

As a few have already said McGrath, Murray and Sexton are the only nailed on Irish players. I think Toner might have a shot if he goes well this season. Other than that Heaslip and SOB are possibles but I wouldn't think are in the mix as it stands. Henshaw maybe. That's about it. Unless Stander can force his way in?

Toner might have a chance as an alternative to the big beefy English second rows, but it is a really competitive position. Kruis, Itoje and Launchbury from England, AWJ from Wales, Johnny Gray from Scotland and Toner and maybe Henderson from Ireland. I'd say Kruis, Itoje and AWJ are pretty much nailed on at the moment.

irishbucsfan · 06-09-2016 8:52pm

There were 5 locks in 2013. This time you'd imagine that Itoje and Wyn Jones are absolute certainties (Wyn Jones possible as captain). After them I'd think Jonny Gray and Ian Henderson are likely and then probably one more of the English guys (Kruis or Launchbury or someone like that). I'd say Toner will be very lucky to travel, doesn't fit Gatland's style at all.

For all the toy-throwing, people forget that our forwards were excellent in 2013, among the best forward packs the Lions have produced. I don't really see how Toner fits into that style and it'll be absolutely essential for the Lions to be dominant up front. Henderson is our most likely Lock imo.

swiwi_ · 06-09-2016 9:02pm

Jeepers there is too much bitter lemon already. Sure Gatland is persona non grata on this forum, but the Lions are your team and they will have Irish representation for sure.

Your other options are...indifference...or supporting NZ...

C'mon people we need some healthy banter for the series not a damp squib.

(I think everything in Ireland seems to fall into 2 categories: sainthood or devil incarnate, middle ground doesn't exist...)

Yeah_Right · 06-09-2016 9:06pm

Gatland would go for Charteris over Toner. Similar players but WG is familiar with one.

As others have said, there's three Irish players who barring injury will definitely be going. There's probably another 8-10 who are contenders depending on form and injuries for them and the others in their positions.

irishbucsfan · 06-09-2016 9:06pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

Jeepers there is too much bitter lemon already. Sure Gatland is persona non grata on this forum, but the Lions are your team and they will have Irish representation for sure.

Your other options are...indifference...or supporting NZ...

C'mon people we need some healthy banter for the series not a damp squib.

But, he dropped BOD?

swiwi_ · 06-09-2016 9:06pm

FWIW I think McGrath, Dillane, Henderson, a fully fit SOB, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Henshaw are all with a decent chance at touring.

Probably the only nailed on is McGrath for me, there is a lot of Lions depth at lock, 9 and 10 in particular.

former total · 06-09-2016 9:08pm

I think the Lions is a great concept and Gatland is as good a choice of coach as anyone else. They're going to lose but sure winning isn't everything.

Ireland will have 6-7 players in the squad, maybe more with a strong Six Nations.

awec · 06-09-2016 9:10pm

I will be shocked if there are as many as 6 or 7 irish players, and the idea we'd have more than that is pure fantasy to be honest. It's not being bitter at Gatland, I just think we don't have that many players who'd get into the team right now to play Gatland's way.

swiwi_ · 06-09-2016 9:13pm

awec wrote: »

I will be shocked if there are as many as 6 or 7 irish players, and the idea we'd have more than that is pure fantasy to be honest. It's not being bitter at Gatland, I just think we don't have that many players who'd get into the team right now to play Gatland's way.

For the schedule they'll face they'll need 40+ players. Taking Scotland into account it's hard to see 30 players coming from Wales & England alone.

irishbucsfan · 06-09-2016 9:17pm

awec wrote: »

I will be shocked if there are as many as 6 or 7 irish players, and the idea we'd have more than that is pure fantasy to be honest. It's not being bitter at Gatland, I just think we don't have that many players who'd get into the team right now to play Gatland's way.

In the starting team? Probably not going to have that many. If they pick Murray/Sexton we could get close, I reckon we'll have two in the pack and maybe Henshaw might get a chance in the backs because he fits the style. We could easilly end up with as few as 2/3 if Webb/Biggar start at half back.

awec · 06-09-2016 9:19pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

For the schedule they'll face they'll need 40+ players. Taking Scotland into account it's hard to see 30 players coming from Wales & England alone.

They only took 37 to Australia for the same number of fixtures and we had more guys back then who were nailed on for a call up.

There were 25 from England and Wales in Australia.

Yeah_Right · 06-09-2016 9:20pm

How many players were in the original squad in 2013 and how many more were called up? I'm guessing there'll be 35 in the original party and another dozen will get called up. I just hope they don't go like 2005 with 45 players and 50 odd support staff.

awec · 06-09-2016 9:21pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In the starting team? Probably not going to have that many. If they pick Murray/Sexton we could get close, I reckon we'll have two in the pack and maybe Henshaw might get a chance in the backs because he fits the style. We could easilly end up with as few as 2/3 if Webb/Biggar start at half back.

I'm talking about the squad.

Jaysus, in the starting test team I honestly don't think there is a single Irish player who is the clear choice in their position. Jack McGrath maybe.

irishbucsfan · 06-09-2016 9:28pm

awec wrote: »

I'm talking about the squad.

Jaysus, in the starting test team I honestly don't think there is a single Irish player who is the clear choice in their position. Jack McGrath maybe.

Well we had the same numbers as the English last time despite doing horrifically in the 6 Nations (2nd from bottom) and none of our players showing any form internationally, so whatever you're smoking I wouldn't mind a little bit of that...

We'll send a couple of front rowers, a few loose forwards, both our half backs and I'd be very surprised if Henshaw is our only outside back travelling.

swiwi_ · 06-09-2016 9:30pm

Think the lions should go for speed at 9, I'd favour Webb. Fly half will depend on 6N form. Lions will need every point they can get so a top goalkicker is a must...Farrell in the mix, to send a further frisson of delight down the forums spine.

As a neutral I look forward to the 6N jostling for positions.

The single most locked on player HAS to be Itoje. If Gatland doesn't pick him then Hansen will...he is an all black after all...

irishbucsfan · 06-09-2016 9:31pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

Think the lions should go for speed at 9, I'd favour Webb. Fly half will depend on 6N form. Lions will need every point they can get so a top goalkicker is a must...Farrell in the mix, to send a further frisson of delight down the forums spine.

As a neutral I look forward to the 6N jostling for positions.

The single most locked on player HAS to be Itoje. If Gatland doesn't pick him then Hansen will...he is an all black after all...

I think Webb/Biggar are quite likely to play at half back.

We need every point, if only we had the best kicker in world rugby available to us! A halfpenny for Gatland's thoughts on how he solves that problem!

Farrell at 12 is possibly how they solve the continuity problems they had in the last series, a second pivot might be crucial. That's one of the major tactical decisions to be made by whoever takes the backs, go for the Gatlandesque 20-phase series of play or try play short-phase rugby and put ball carriers in midfield. That could be the decision that decides the series.

former total · 06-09-2016 9:34pm

There's going to a long season of grinding negativity here.

But yeah I'd say 6 players minimum. Even that would be our lowest representation since 2001 when we were a much worse team.

awec · 06-09-2016 9:57pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well we had the same numbers as the English last time despite doing horrifically in the 6 Nations (2nd from bottom) and none of our players showing any form internationally, so whatever you're smoking I wouldn't mind a little bit of that...

We'll send a couple of front rowers, a few loose forwards, both our half backs and I'd be very surprised if Henshaw is our only outside back travelling.

Last time we had POC, BOD and Bowe who were all absolute certs to tour.

awec · 06-09-2016 9:59pm

former total wrote: »

There's going to a long season of grinding negativity here.

But yeah I'd say 6 players minimum. Even that would be our lowest representation since 2001 when we were a much worse team.

Who are the 6 (or more) Irish players you feel are certain to tour?

Nothing about being negative either, that's just rubbish. Being realistic more like. We are not a terrible team full of terrible players but we don't have too many guys who are certain to be on the plane next year.

irishbucsfan · 06-09-2016 10:02pm

awec wrote: »

Last time we had POC, BOD and Bowe who were all absolute certs to tour.

How many certs you have to tour is completely irrelevant though. Last time Scotland had noone who was a cert and this time I'd say Hogg and Jonny Gray are both certs to tour based on last season, doesn't mean I think they'll have more players on tour.

Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

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