Homelessness on the rise

Graces7

Graces7 wrote: »

Many more locations in remote areas ...

Jobs? Prices? Schools?

There are loads of vacant housing in far less out of the way places than west cork.

That being said I'm not sure it's fair to move all that potential anti-social behaviour to small towns etc.

Rodin

Vanessa Billions Strapless wrote: »

There are loads of vacant housing in far less oitbof the way places than west cork.

That being said I'm not sure it's fair to move all that potential anti-social behaviour to small towns etc.

Not fair to anyone to have to put up with it.
Should be dealt with appropriately.

Graces7

rossmores wrote: »

I would like to add when you get near one of these shelters the litter increases, loitering sometime drinking alcohol and the odd human defecation (would like to rub peter's nose in it when i here him on the radio) some of these people need specialist care in a place away from the urban centers they are not able to take care of them selves any suggestion that the greedy unprofessional gouging LLs could provide a solution by aggressively making them house homeless is insane

Ireland has clearly done what the UK did. Close the old fashioned long stay mental hospitals that housed those who could not cope anywhere else. In the UK they called it "Care in the Community" , but that never really materialised and the same things there. Terrible accommodation, no care, all totally out of control. Coincided with the invention of the modern drugs eg the benzos. so then we got thousands addicted to that.

BUT not all homeless are addicts or inadequates. I came perilously near to joining their ranks last year. LLs finding ways to refuse RS..I have never trashed a house, defaulted on rent etc yet I am classed with those who do?

It is that that precludes many from getting a home. And it can spark a downward spiral.

JupiterKid

Look, we can tinker around with the private rented sector to the nth degree but the real solution lies in a massively expanded social housing programme, on a scale not seen since the 1970s.

This is obvious to me.

Ray Palmer

JupiterKid wrote: »

Look, we can tinker around with the private rented sector to the nth degree but the real solution lies in a massively expanded social housing programme, on a scale not seen since the 1970s.

This is obvious to me.

The problem is all that social housing created massively deprived neighbourhoods with lots of anti-social behaviour. We are still dealing with this nearly 50 years later.

Eric Cartman

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The problem is all that social housing created massively deprived neighbourhoods with lots of anti-social behaviour. We are still dealing with this nearly 50 years later.

+1 , even government figures use the phrase 'we can't have another ballymun' , so they accepted that high concentrations of social house dwellers just leads to rampant criminality and substance abuse.

Its such a hard problem to solve because nobody wants to buy a house next to somebody who got the same house for free / is massively detached from their values (getting up for work every day at 8am when your neighbour is partying till 4am and sitting in the garden drinking cans when you get home at 6) yet concentrating too many unemployed people / underemployed people causes massive problems.

Allowing private developers to build developments of <40 dwellings next to developments of affordable private housing and selling them to the council to be rented in perpetuity to social tenants would be my idea. Give the council powers to rapidly evict misbehaving tenants and have monthly residents meetings co-ordinated with the gardai so people can report criminality as a unified voice and not be intimidated into silence.

athtrasna

Mod note

Discussion of opinions of social housing tenants is not acceptable on this forum.

Doctor Nick

Vanessa Billions Strapless wrote: »

In my post I said I would very much consider the above as fully homeless and in a very bad situation and they should be considered in the hard figures for homelessness they are 50/50 for being in the street every night.

A high proportion of the homeless figures are made up of people who will never spend a night on the street though and are living in hotels or other long term (but temporary) good, safe and comfortable accomidation while waiting to be housed by the government.

Apologies, I misread your first reply to me and thought you said that people in hostels shouldn't be included in the figures. I still disagree with what you say about hotels. IMO hotels should be included in the numbers. AFAIK people in hotels are usually families and that is to ensure that children are kept off the street. All well and good until some big event is held in the City that requires those hotel rooms for the tourists who want to go to the event. Then it's usually pack your bags to the homeless folk (this used to happen, I'll admit I don't know if it still does).

Even so, a hotel only provides bed and board. They can't cook, they're all in one room so they have no privacy. Imagine being a boy of a certain age sharing a room with his sister who is also of a certain age(i.e. teenagers). It's demoralising and shouldn't be allowed.

I had more to say about people who become homeless but the moderator has posted that we can't discuss it so I will adhere to the rules of the board. The only thing I will say (if mod permits) is about myself, I am college educated who worked in a large multinational for almost 20 years at supervisory level before finding myself homeless.

Graces7

Doctor Nick wrote: »

Apologies, I misread your first reply to me and thought you said that people in hostels shouldn't be included in the figures. I still disagree with what you say about hotels. IMO hotels should be included in the numbers. AFAIK people in hotels are usually families and that is to ensure that children are kept off the street. All well and good until some big event is held in the City that requires those hotel rooms for the tourists who want to go to the event. Then it's usually pack your bags to the homeless folk (this used to happen, I'll admit I don't know if it still does).

Even so, a hotel only provides bed and board. They can't cook, they're all in one room so they have no privacy. Imagine being a boy of a certain age sharing a room with his sister who is also of a certain age(i.e. teenagers). It's demoralising and shouldn't be allowed.

I had more to say about people who become homeless but the moderator has posted that we can't discuss it so I will adhere to the rules of the board. The only thing I will say (if mod permits) is about myself, I am college educated who worked in a large multinational for almost 20 years at supervisory level before finding myself homeless.

Internationally the term "homeless" is used only for those sleeping rough. ie totally without a roof.

pilly

JupiterKid wrote: »

Look, we can tinker around with the private rented sector to the nth degree but the real solution lies in a massively expanded social housing programme, on a scale not seen since the 1970s.

This is obvious to me.

I agree, Tallaght sprung up during that time period and people can remark all they want about the problems it has but the people had a roof over the heads and it's now a vibrant city in itself.

antoinolachtnai

Graces7 wrote: »

Internationally the term "homeless" is used only for those sleeping rough. ie totally without a roof.

I do not think this is true. Can you provide evidence of major western countries that regard people in temporary shelters as not being homeless?

antoinolachtnai

JupiterKid wrote: »

Look, we can tinker around with the private rented sector to the nth degree but the real solution lies in a massively expanded social housing programme, on a scale not seen since the 1970s.

This is obvious to me.

We need to build a lot of accommodation, that's for sure. But the crisis is in all parts of the housing spectrum, not just in social housing.

pilly

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

We need to build a lot of accommodation, that's for sure. But the crisis is in all parts of the housing spectrum, not just in social housing.

Yes but dealing with one helps all the others. For example if more social housing is built then people who qualify for them are no longer competing in the market for private rented accommodation.

That reduces competition and hopefully brings prices for rented accommodation down or at least stabilises it.

Doctor Nick

Graces7 wrote: »

Internationally the term "homeless" is used only for those sleeping rough. ie totally without a roof.

Indeed. Wonder what we could call people who had a bed in a hostel yesterday but not today because they didn't call the freephone in time. Part time homeless?

antoinolachtnai

pilly wrote: »

Yes but dealing with one helps all the others. For example if more social housing is built then people who qualify for them are no longer competing in the market for private rented accommodation.

That reduces competition and hopefully brings prices for rented accommodation down or at least stabilises it.

That is certainly true. The question arises, what sort of accommodation do we actually need, overall in our housing mix to resolve our problems?

I think (and it is an intuition from what I see rather than something I have the statistics for) what we actually need is a lot of well-located single person and couples accommodation. This would open up a lot of the three-bed accommodation to families.

I don't think it is viable to build this accommodation at the moment, either for public or private sector. It is basically illegal to build anything smaller than 45 sq m which would serve a lot of these needs. I see Dublin City Council merging their 1-bed units together to make 2-bed units. I don't see that this is making much sense.

Eric Cartman

pilly wrote: »

I agree, Tallaght sprung up during that time period and people can remark all they want about the problems it has but the people had a roof over the heads and it's now a vibrant city in itself.

Theres a massive difference between building a roof over peoples heads and building a roof over peoples heads in a planned way so that you dont end up with an area (like tallaght) where business insurance costs 3x as much, car insurance companies load quotes / wont quote for all of D24, and a young lad gets murdered on a bridge by 8 people for the craic.

Its probably one of the best serviced large towns in Ireland, yet still has rampant social problems. We should not be using it as any kind of acceptable model for social inclusion / social housing.

Tony EH

Graces7 wrote: »

Internationally the term "homeless" is used only for those sleeping rough. ie totally without a roof.

Is this true?

I take it to mean that the homeless person is someone currently without a home, displaced or without permanent residence or fixed abode.

Living in a hotel in a temp capacity is not a "home".

Michael D Not Higgins

The consensus does not dictate a requirement to sleep rough to be considered homeless, in Ireland or abroad.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/losing_your_home/homelessness.html
Citizen's Information

Staying in an emergency hostel or refuge
Staying in bed and breakfast or hotel accommodation on a temporary basis

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/homelessness/homelessness_-_an_introduction/legal_definition_of_homelessness
Shelter England

You don't have to be sleeping on the streets to be considered homeless.

http://scotland.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/advice_topics/homelessness/help_from_the_councils_housing_department/the_councils_homelessness_tests/are_you_homeless
Shelter Scotland

I've got no right to stay where I am

https://www.nhchc.org/faq/official-definition-homelessness/
NHCHC (USA)

A homeless individual... including an individual whose primary residence during the night is a supervised public or private facility (e.g., shelters) that provides temporary living accommodations

Michael D Not Higgins

Also the UN

https://unstats.un.org/unsd/censuskb20/Attachments/2009MPHASIS_ECE_Homeless-GUID25ae612721cc4c2c87b536892e1ed1e1.pdf

Secondary homelessness. This category may include persons with no place of
usual residence who move frequently between various types of accommodations
(including dwellings, shelters and institutions for the homeless or other living
quarters). This category includes persons living in private dwellings but reporting
‘no usual address’ on their census form.

Graces7

Tony EH wrote: »

Is this true?

I take it to mean that the homeless person is someone currently without a home, displaced or without permanent residence or fixed abode.

Living in a hotel in a temp capacity is not a "home".

I have family working with the homeless in Canada where the last count found nearly 3 million living rough and counted as "homeless, " and those in temp accommodation or couch surfing were not counted as homeless . Only those without a roof of any kind are homeless in the broadest sense and when t he problem is so huge?

That is the working definition there and elsewhere.

antoinolachtnai

Graces7 wrote: »

I have family working with the homeless in Canada where the last count found nearly 3 million living rough and counted as "homeless, " and those in temp accommodation or couch surfing were not counted as homeless . Only those without a roof of any kind are homeless in the broadest sense and when t he problem is so huge?

That is the working definition there and elsewhere.

Can you provide evidence or an authoritative source for your claim of how homeless are counted in Canada?

Can you provide evidence or an authoritative source for your claim that there are three million people sleeping rough in Canada?

Michael D Not Higgins

There are not 3 million rough sleepers in Canada, that's preposterous.

That's the end of this line of discussion, please bring it back to the topic of homelessness in Ireland.

pilly

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

That is certainly true. The question arises, what sort of accommodation do we actually need, overall in our housing mix to resolve our problems?

I think (and it is an intuition from what I see rather than something I have the statistics for) what we actually need is a lot of well-located single person and couples accommodation. This would open up a lot of the three-bed accommodation to families.

I don't think it is viable to build this accommodation at the moment, either for public or private sector. It is basically illegal to build anything smaller than 45 sq m which would serve a lot of these needs. I see Dublin City Council merging their 1-bed units together to make 2-bed units. I don't see that this is making much sense.

What makes you think it's not viable to build that sort of accommodation?

Also, I'm not sure either. It's been a while now since I was up in Tallaght but I do know there was a whole block of apartments empty. Are these in NAMA or what's going on with them?

Frustrates me that the government can't see these things and get the accommodation up and running.

pilly

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Theres a massive difference between building a roof over peoples heads and building a roof over peoples heads in a planned way so that you dont end up with an area (like tallaght) where business insurance costs 3x as much, car insurance companies load quotes / wont quote for all of D24, and a young lad gets murdered on a bridge by 8 people for the craic.

Its probably one of the best serviced large towns in Ireland, yet still has rampant social problems. We should not be using it as any kind of acceptable model for social inclusion / social housing.

I'm not going to enter into an argument about social problems. They exist everywhere.

Just from my experience, I grew up in Tallaght, I went to college, qualified, blah blah blah. And more importantly I had a secure roof over my head. I don't consider the area a disaster at all and I don't appreciate you're bringing one incident up as an example. These incidents happen in Foxrock also.

Nothing will totally eradicate social problems. The issue we have right now is homelessness and it needs to be solved.

antoinolachtnai

pilly wrote: »

What makes you think it's not viable to build that sort of accommodation?

Because of the planning regulations. You need to make these apartments quite large. There are good reasons for having larger apartments in the mix but not everybody needs 50 square meters.

There are also rules about having a dual aspect. Again this drives up the cost.

Even 10k or 20k of difference in price makes a big difference to the whole thing being viable or not.

I really think we need tens of thousands of units, not a few hundred here and a thousand there.

Slydice

The March figures have been released:
http://www.housing.gov.ie/sites/default/files/publications/files/homeless_report_-_march_2017.pdf

Homelessness on the rise. I've updated the two charts based on the totals they give.

Homelessness (Adults)


Family Homelessness


The latest report repeats:

The root cause of increased homelessness is the supply shortage across the housing sector, which in turn is a result of the recent economic collapse and the associated damage to the construction sector. Accordingly the long-term solution to the current homeless issue is to increase the supply of homes.

Same day as this:
Spring record of 138 rough sleepers in Dublin region
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0425/870208-homeless-rough-sleepers/

New official figures published today show that the number of rough sleepers in the Dublin region is 35% up on the same period last year.

quoting:
- Minister for Housing Simon Coveney

He added: "We remain committed to finding more homes for people who find themselves homeless, we remain fully focused on increasing supply which is at the core of our various housing challenges.

- Dublin Simon Chief Executive Sam McGuinness

There is a shortage of one-bed and two-bed housing that would allow single people to move out of emergency accommodation, he said.

- The Peter McVerry Trust

the latest rough sleeper figure for Dublin is disappointing and reflects the challenge in securing housing "move ons" for people in homelessness.

After last weeks CSO release:
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp1hii/cp1hii/
where:
This chart shows the massive drop in housing supply compared to the Celtic Tiger years
https://www.thejournal.ie/cso-chart-housing-stock-celtic-tiger-3351468-Apr2017/


and
Home ownership at its lowest rate since 1971 - CSO
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/0420/868945-housing-profile-census-cso/

The latest figures from the Central Statistics Office reveal a chronic shortage of supply, evidence of increased overcrowding in urban areas, a decline in the home ownership rate and a drop in the number of vacant properties.

and
Dubliners' rent bills rocket by 30pc as housing crisis deepens
http://www.herald.ie/news/dubliners-rent-bills-rocket-by-30pc-as-housing-crisis-deepens-35640958.html

and
Census 2016 highlights extent of Ireland's housing shortage
http://www.newstalk.com/Census-2016-highlights-extent-of-Irelands-housing-shortage

jimmycrackcorm

Slydice wrote:

The March figures have been released:

So, nothing new then...

pilly

How on earth are they going to follow through on their promise not to have any families in emergency accommodation by July?

Allinall

pilly wrote: »

How on earth are they going to follow through on their promise not to have any families in emergency accommodation by July?

They'll just redefine what constitutes "emergency".

Simples.

Kate_B7

Im a college student who has been following this thread with interest, as I am currently writing a paper on such issues eg the govs rebuilding Ireland strategy and is it recognizing the complexity of homelessness or merely focusing on more structural issues..
I am trying to understand the homeless situation here a bit more, and wondering, is the govs rebuilding Ireland strategy actually going to do any good? It does not seem like it will meet a lot of its stated targets...