Eflow fines - Sheriff took car.

Seth Brundle

Dodge wrote: »

It's very much not a "nowadays" thing, nor is it "many people". The amount of cars seized for non payments of tolls is miniscule. As it should be.

That comment about people not accepting responsibility waso not limited to cars being sieved for non payment of tolls.
It was pointing out that across society, some people are unwilling to accept blame for their actions.

Dodge

kbannon wrote: »

That comment about people not accepting responsibility waso not limited to cars being sieved for non payment of tolls.
It was pointing out that across society, some people are unwilling to accept blame for their actions.

This has always been the case. It is a tiny minority.

Tombo2001

Dodge wrote: »

This has always been the case. It is a tiny minority.

Not a tiny minority.

The difference in this case is that penalties are being enforced; which quite frankly is something that Irish people are culturally not used to.

No doubt everyone here has jaywalked. If I go into the centre of any Irish city, I could probably video 100 people jaywalking within 2 minutes.

You can get 3 months in prison for jaywalking.

If you ended up in jail for 3 months for jaywalking; would you be saying to yourself "well the laws the law, only meself to blame".

No I don't think so; because if you did think that way you wouldn't jaywalk.....and everyone does it.

But somehow the attitude here in this case is.....well she should have known better, her own fault.

Sorry, but its just outrageous that missing out €24 of payments can mean her €6k car is taken off her. Its wrong wrong wrong.

Dodge

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Sorry, but its just outrageous that missing out €24 of payments can mean her €6k car is taken off her. Its wrong wrong wrong.

You don't honestly believe that?

The OP stated she had several "large" bills from her account initially, but then she was going to be pursued for €24. None of the OP's story makes sense. She was clearly given multiple opportunities to pay, and she has refused all of them.

Look at the amount of steps needed for the sheriff to get involved? It doesn't happen for €24.

Bandana boy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

an account in one sense does make sense but as ive said above, ive only used the toll a couple of times in the few years ive been driving. eflow said it wasnt even worth it. i had no problem paying the toll, but to be charged a fine for being a couple of days late is a bit ridiculous.

It costs them money to chase you for the Toll , that either gets put on you or everyone , I am all for personal responsibility and "the polluter pays"

Tombo2001

Dodge wrote: »

You don't honestly believe that?

The OP stated she had several "large" bills from her account initially, but then she was going to be pursued for €24. None of the OP's story makes sense. She was clearly given multiple opportunities to pay, and she has refused all of them.

Look at the amount of steps needed for the sheriff to get involved? It doesn't happen for €24.

She was given multiple opportunities to pay €24? I doubt it.

The wider point here is that the 'fines' are very lucrative and ramp up very quickly and very aggressively, and I have no doubt eflow are quite happy to let the fines ramp up.

Mrs OBumble

Peregrinus wrote: »

If I had to summarise, I'd say she got what was coming to her, but I'm sympathetic, because she genuinely had no idea what was coming to her.

If she genuinely had no idea what was coming to here, the I'm thinking that her financial affairs out to be being managed by someone else who has normal IQ, and that in the interest of her own safety she should only be allowed to leave the house accompanied by a support worker.

runawaybishop

Tombo2001 wrote: »

She was given multiple opportunities to pay €24? I doubt it.

The wider point here is that the 'fines' are very lucrative and ramp up very quickly and very aggressively, and I have no doubt eflow are quite happy to let the fines ramp up.

Yeah, she was given 12 chances to pay without penalty, but choose not to. Then she was given 12 chances to pay a small fine but said shed be happy to go to court. It looks like she wasn't happy to go to court after all.

The "wider point" is that she ignored a ton of communication on this, what did she expect to happen.

Tombo2001

Something similar to this happened to me where my wife had used my car to use the toll bridge; between the jigs and the reels she never told me about it and it was forgotten.

The problem was that the reminder letters were going to my neighbours house not mine.

The neighbour shows up one day with around 6 letters, the last of which is I think a fine or a court appearance. Total fine was around €450 I think.

My initial reaction was, this is nonsense there is no way they can enforce this, they were sending it to the wrong address.

I contacted my solicitor and he said, the solicitors these guys are using are notorious; the obligation is on me as the car owner obviously to know the toll was used, which is fair enough, but also to know all the consequences of not paying.....which I didn't know and wouldn't expect people to know.

My strong view is that the fines are a money making racket, and go far far beyond the cost of enforecement, and go far far beyond the 'crime' committed; and I can understand why someone who (I) doesn't have the finances to pay a really large fine and (ii) doesn't have the wherewithal to negotiate through the legal system, and doesn't have their own solicitor, could be really intimidated by this and get into this mess.

My final point - it is very much poor people who will get caught out by this. People who cant afford a large fine, people who cant afford legal advice.

Sleeper12

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If she genuinely had no idea what was coming to here, the I'm thinking that her financial affairs out to be being managed by someone else who has normal IQ, and that in the interest of her own safety she should only be allowed to leave the house accompanied by a support worker.

I was thinking this myself. Not trying to attack OPs friend but as I read the original post I was thinking how did she even manage to secure a mortgage, car, car insurance etc. I don't think OP has been told the whole story. It takes a lot of steps before the Sheriff comes knocking. Eflow would have sent possibly a dozen or more letters, she would have gotten notice of court dates & even notice of the verdict. Knock on wood I haven't had the pleasure of meeting the sheriff yet but I'd assume he'd send a letter/demand before he comes knocking. Its a serious case of burring your head in the sand. It never works.

Sleeper12

I contacted my solicitor and he said, the solicitors these guys are using are notorious; the obligation is on me as the car owner obviously to know the toll was used, which is fair enough, but also to know all the consequences of not paying.....which I didn't know and wouldn't expect people to know.

Ignorance of the law is not a legal defense. "Gosh I didn't know if I was caught with the drugs I'd get 10 years". It's up to us to find out.

I do feel for this girl cos it's a lot of money to anyone but if they were soft on her it wouldn't even be here on boards & none of us would pay Eflow.

wonski

Some people when they know they owe money do not engage with creditors until it is to late. They won't answer the phone and bin the letters.

I learned myself that answering that phone call or responding to the letter can be not only rewarding, but also let all the stress out.

Had two repayments plans arranged back in the day and the relief of them not chasing me any more was unreal.

Getting to the stage of Sheriffs knocking on your door means op's friend didn't engage at all to get this sorted.

Bandana boy

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Something similar to this happened to me where my wife had used my car to use the toll bridge; between the jigs and the reels she never told me about it and it was forgotten.

The problem was that the reminder letters were going to my neighbours house not mine.

The neighbour shows up one day with around 6 letters, the last of which is I think a fine or a court appearance. Total fine was around €450 I think.

My initial reaction was, this is nonsense there is no way they can enforce this, they were sending it to the wrong address.

I contacted my solicitor and he said, the solicitors these guys are using are notorious; the obligation is on me as the car owner obviously to know the toll was used, which is fair enough, but also to know all the consequences of not paying.....which I didn't know and wouldn't expect people to know.

My strong view is that the fines are a money making racket, and go far far beyond the cost of enforecement, and go far far beyond the 'crime' committed; and I can understand why someone who (I) doesn't have the finances to pay a really large fine and (ii) doesn't have the wherewithal to negotiate through the legal system, and doesn't have their own solicitor, could be really intimidated by this and get into this mess.

My final point - it is very much poor people who will get caught out by this. People who cant afford a large fine, people who cant afford legal advice.

the fine is well worth having that over your missus for the rest of your life ;)

ThisRegard

Tombo2001 wrote: »

My final point - it is very much poor people who will get caught out by this.

Not really. If you take a look at the report on the last lot of cars seized for non payment of the toll you'll see a lot were pretty decent cars.

edit: Here it is,
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cars-seized-from-drivers-owing-average-28-600-in-m50-tolls-1.2717290
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/almost-60-cars-seized-last-year-after-drivers-failed-to-pay-m50-tolls-34874593.html

Average car value is reported as €28,600, report gives the type and age of cars seized, and the judgement outstanding on their owners.

jimmycrackcorm

Tombo2001 wrote:

My strong view is that the fines are a money making racket, and go far far beyond the cost of enforecement, and go far far beyond the 'crime' committed; and I can understand why someone who (I) doesn't have the finances to pay a really large fine and (ii) doesn't have the wherewithal to negotiate through the legal system, and doesn't have their own solicitor, could be really intimidated by this and get into this mess.

My strong view is that they are necessary because it's not about one person but about thousands of people not paying.

Given the simple option of using a video account, there really no excuse for letting it get to the stage where fines are involved.

kirving

kbannon wrote: »

So what?
It's a fine, a deterrent. If you disagree with the manner by which the fine's value escalates, then don't accrue it!

I do think that €6000, which would easily feed someone for a year in Ireland, has gone far past the point of being a deterrent, or a reasonable compensation for the company who have had to spend their time persuing it.

I give eflow quite a bit of money every month and have had no issue with them. They do seem to take a hard line on money matters in general though, if the recent dispute with CRG is anything to go by.

Widdershins

She can't have owed 6,000, surely. I don't agree with seizing property worth more than what is owed. Her livelihood probably depends on her car.

wonski

ThisRegard wrote: »

Not really. If you take a look at the report on the last lot of cars seized for non payment of the toll you'll see a lot were pretty decent cars.

edit: Here it is,
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/cars-seized-from-drivers-owing-average-28-600-in-m50-tolls-1.2717290
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/almost-60-cars-seized-last-year-after-drivers-failed-to-pay-m50-tolls-34874593.html

Average car value is reported as €28,600, report gives the type and age of cars seized, and the judgement outstanding on their owners.

No, it is not.

And it is not a report really.

Alun

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I do think that €6000, which would easily feed someone for a year in Ireland, has gone far past the point of being a deterrent, or a reasonable compensation for the company who have had to spend their time persuing it.

She would have had ample opportunity in the mean time though to have paid a much lower penalty than that, even no penalty at all if she hadn't just cancelled her account in a hissy fit for no obvious reason, but she chose to ignore those options.

runawaybishop

Kevin Irving wrote: »

I do think that €6000, which would easily feed someone for a year in Ireland, has gone far past the point of being a deterrent, or a reasonable compensation for the company who have had to spend their time persuing it.

I give eflow quite a bit of money every month and have had no issue with them. They do seem to take a hard line on money matters in general though, if the recent dispute with CRG is anything to go by.

If she had actually engaged and gone into court (never mind just paid the minor fine) she would most likely have had that severely reduced. There was a student a few years ago who was basically too busy to pay for 200 trips and had their fine reduced to 15% or something.

edit: 17k fine reduced to 3k, 198 trips.

Alun

Widdershins wrote: »

She can't have owed 6,000, surely. I don't agree with seizing property worth more than what is owed. Her livelihood probably depends on her car.

She owed 3000 I think, but as she appears to have refused to pay that when the sheriffs called, they seized the car. I'd imagine if it's worth 6k, and they actually get that at auction, then she'll get the remainder, after costs of course.

Hank Flaky Nurse

Hank Flaky Nurse wrote: »

........ eflows irregular charging. Taking massive payments out at once at random times. She had a bill of over 150 the day her mortgage came out and then again at Christmas time. As a single mother it left her in a bad situation twice. So she cancelled it.................A new car at that.........................

1) Were the payments taking for toll fees actually accrued by the lady
2) why mention the single mother situation
3) new car waters down whatever answer to 2) is

Alun

I've just got an email reminder that my monthly statement for August is ready to be viewed. I know that that amount will be charged to my debit card on the 15th or thereabouts, so I've got 2 weeks to make sure my finances are in order to pay it, hardly random.

Cienciano

If you use the tolls enough to get €150 you need to set up an account of some sort. You can credit the account if you need to as far as I know or when it gets below a certain amount it will take a set sum from your account. For instance, when it's below €10, it will take €50 from your account.


I had a problem with a new card not registered and ended up with 2 tolls not being paid. Ignored the letter because when I registered the new card, I assumed it would deduct the 2 missed tolls. It didn't and it turned into €40 fine. Forgot to pay it and it turned into either €300 or €600 fine from a solicitor. I called e-flow, explained what happened and they cancelled the big fine, took €2.10 for each journey if I paid the solicitors €12. Which I did.


TLDR; e-flow are grand to deal with if you communicate with them.

Alun

Cienciano wrote: »

If you use the tolls enough to get €150 you need to set up an account of some sort. You can credit the account if you need to as far as I know or when it gets below a certain amount it will take a set sum from your account. For instance, when it's below €10, it will take €50 from your account.

She had an account of some sort apparently, it's not clear if it was a tag or a video account, although for that level of usage a tag would have been a no-brainer. Presumably it was a bill-pay as opposed to a top-up type account she had if she got an "unexpected" bill of €150 though.

ThisRegard

wonski wrote: »

No, it is not.

And it is not a report really.

Tell that to the journalist with your reasons as to why not. I said it was 'reported', I never claimed it was fact.

And generally stories that appear in newspapers are actually reports.

utmbuilder

People on boards are so rude sometimes. Its terrible etoll can enforce such fines the government should set limits like they do on loan sharks.

ZeroThreat

Tbh, it seems to me like this woman deserves to be a pedestrian/public transport user for the rest of her life, going by the high levels of stupidity demonstrated.

ZeroThreat

utmbuilder wrote: »

People on boards are so rude sometimes. Its terrible etoll can enforce such fines the government should set limits like they do on loan sharks.

It's private sector, no more nanny state 'regulation' , thank you.

percy212

It's a pity it got to this stage. I know that people struggling financially often ignore important letters and hope for the best.

I am surprised that eflow would go so far with a bill all the same. Taking someones property for road tolls seems extreme to me. She couldn't possibly owe anywhere near the value of her car. There is nothing to do at this stage but see a solicitor. Perhaps, your friend is unwell or suffering from anxiety which prevented her from dealing with this matter earlier....I hope things work out for her.