UFC 201: Lawler v Woodley

mdwexford

Tigger wrote: »

no the rational would be if you get sat down in the first your shot was undeserved
if you get into the championship rounds you proved yourself

Guess we disagree then, the result should have no bearing on whether the shot was deserved or not.

For example Donald Cerrone, got smoked by RDA in the first but after an 8 fight win streak beating some top guys he certainly deserved his shot at the gold.

Tigger

Lawler via Submission

wonderfullife wrote: »

I think what he's alluding to is Results-Based-Thinking not being a valid line of logic.

I.e. If Gunnar Nelson had skipped the queue, and got Robbie to the ground, choked him, and was now the UFC Champion....

highly unlikley until Gunnar cuts weight he'll never be top tier

That result wouldn't change the fact he didn't deserve the title shot in the first place as there were more valid contenders ahead of him.

So the fact he arguably skipped a queue and won, doesn't necessarily mean it was right to let the guy skip the queue in first place.

It's just results-based thinking. "Well, he won, so it was the right call".

All that being said, i'm not certain it was that ridiculous a title shot.

no its a strawman cosRobbie eats his soul

I personally believe Condit won that fight in January and deserved a rematch ahead of Woodley.

as i said i think going the distance is sort of a draw, i'd like it if you could only take a belt by stoppage

Tigger

Lawler via Submission

mdwexford wrote: »

Guess we disagree then, the result should have no bearing on whether the shot was deserved or not.

For example Donald Cerrone, got smoked by RDA in the first but after an 8 fight win streak beating some top guys he certainly deserved his shot at the gold.

Cowboy never had a chance in my opinion, results proved it

Tigger

Lawler via Submission

finglashoop wrote: »

So skip a title run and give him a title shot?

Diaz name is big at the minute
give him a money fight

wonderfullife

Tigger wrote: »

no the rational would be if you get sat down in the first your shot was undeserved
if you get into the championship rounds you proved yourself

That's a pretty risky logic as you can apply it in reverse too....

Jose Aldo got sat down in 13 seconds. Did it make him an undeserving champion?

Or if Rick Story got tossed a title shot and made it to the 4th round, does it mean he proved he was a worthy contender?

I don't think you can really go down that road.

The UFC have consistently shown in the past 18 months that they're not overly concerned with the rankings, and when push comes to shove they're going to disregard rankings to make fights that sell more.

Wilson Reis was due up for Mighty Mouse. You could clearly say on rankings and record he was nowhere near next in line, i'd sooner see Horiguchi or Formiga take a crack.

Max Holloway was on a great win streak but he was still arguably behind Aldo, Edgar and, potentially, even Mendes for next shot, given Mendes had a much larger fan-base and drawing power.

Cody Garbrandt is way down the rankings but would not surprise me one bit if he gets tossed Dominick Cruz very soon.

GSP walks back into a title shot, Jon Jones will walk back into the title picture, Chael Sonnen will likely get Bisping soon, Brock would def have been given a shortcut if he didn't pop.....

You can go through the divisions and it celebrates the point that they've been moving away from the rankings and the belts are getting devalued by some of the guys skipping queues to make bigger fights.

There's a list of guys - GSP, Chael, Nick Diaz, Anderson Silva to name a few - who all remain big draws in the sport but have huge question marks on their long term future in the sport.

It makes a lot of sense financially to bleed every cent possible from these guys in the next 18 months, because they won't be hanging around at the top level for long after that.

Depp

Lawler via Submission

to say cowboy didnt deserve his shot is completely ridiculous, chap went on an 8 fight win streak like? whats dana supposed to do ''sorry there cowboy looked into my crystal ball there and youre going to lose so were not giving you the shot''

wonderfullife

finglashoop wrote: »

So skip a title run and give him a title shot?

I've no real problem with Woodley v Nick..... Nick v Lawler..... Nick v GSP....Nick v Bisping.....etc

Skip a title run and insert him into a couple of big money fights while he's still a big draw and cash in on him while he's not getting caught being high.

Depp

Lawler via Submission

wonderfullife wrote: »

I've no real problem with Woodley v Nick..... Nick v Lawler..... Nick v GSP....Nick v Bisping.....etc

Skip a title run and insert him into a couple of big money fights while he's still a big draw and cash in on him while he's not getting caught being high.

Id agree with giving diaz a big fight, always thought theyd give him a big one for his comeback after getting screwed by the nsac

Tigger

Lawler via Submission

Depp wrote: »

to say cowboy didnt deserve his shot is completely ridiculous, chap went on an 8 fight win streak like? whats dana supposed to do ''sorry there cowboy looked into my crystal ball there and youre going to lose so were not giving you the shot''

nobody said he hadn't earned it only that he was gonna lose

wonderfullife

Depp wrote: »

Id agree with giving diaz a big fight, always thought theyd give him a big one for his comeback after getting screwed by the nsac

They'll give him a big fight, for sure. There's just no point in giving him 2 or 3 top 15 guys and hoping he comes through that streak. I wouldn't fancy his chances against many of the top 15 currently, given the length of time off and the improvement in the division.

There's a very small list of guys they'll be willing to match him with - Anderson, Bisping, GSP, Lawler, Woodley, maybe Conor if they want to set up a wrestling style family feud.

It's all about the money with Diaz now. On both ends - his and the UFC. I don't see Nick coming back for a Micky Mouse fight financially against Neil Magny. He'll come back for a few big pay-cheques and the UFC will be keen to cash in on PPV's.

Tigger

Lawler via Submission

Depp wrote: »

Id agree with giving diaz a big fight, always thought theyd give him a big one for his comeback after getting screwed by the nsac

+1 its not like weed is performance enhancing

callaway92

Not having what mdwexford is saying here at all to be honest. Different opinions are fresh though

mdwexford

Tigger wrote: »

Cowboy never had a chance in my opinion, results proved it

Lot of people said that about:

Holly Holm
Michael Bisping
Eddie Alvarez

Results went otherwise.

Depp

Lawler via Submission

callaway92 wrote: »

Not having what mdwexford is saying here at all to be honest. Different opinions are fresh though

Id be inclined to agree with him personally, what happens during a title fight has no bearing on wether the fight is deserved or not, its in the fights before it where you earn your shot

mdwexford

callaway92 wrote: »

Not having what mdwexford is saying here at all to be honest. Different opinions are fresh though

How so.

What do you disagree with?

Depp

Lawler via Submission

mdwexford wrote: »

Lot of people said that about:

Holly Holm
Michael Bisping
Eddie Alvarez

Results went otherwise.

Woodley aswel!

CatFromHue

Depp wrote: »

Woodley aswel!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100472113&postcount=11
:P:cool:

Also anyone know why Lawler wasn't on the last embedded vid?

Tigger

Lawler via Submission

mdwexford wrote: »

Lot of people said that about:

Holly Holm
Michael Bisping
Eddie Alvarez

Results went otherwise.

holly has only showed any reason that she should have had the shot by beating rr
otherwise she looked crap in her last two fights

Depp

Lawler via Submission

Depp wrote: »

right noticed this earlier in the week but kept it to myself cause it sounded a little nuts, but does anyone notice when the ufc puts up the link for the post fight presser stream during fight week, dunno why but there seems to be a trend ive noticed that the fighter in the thumbnail usually loses, was robbie this week! just a thought hahaha

worrying to add further grounds to this theory, is the ''post fight presser thumbnail curse'' a thing now?

mdwexford

Tigger wrote: »

holly has only showed any reason that she should have had the shot by beating rr
otherwise she looked crap in her last two fights

Don't agree with that.

She had Meisha beaten bar a final round finish and looked decent.

Last fight she got nullified and didn't show enough alright.

Mellor

finglashoop wrote: »

Maia is a weird one as they seem to be holding him back or else people wont sign up to fight him. If its a mcgregor "chestnut" then maia should get the shot, if you use the logic he doesn't need to beat any one in the top ten.

Maia is in a position now to the top new contender (along with Wonderboy) he wasn't when he fight was booked. If Lawler had already had 7 or 8 defenses, maybe the contender list would have been different.
MrGregor was the highest ranked guy who hadn't fought (McGregor was 5th IIRC).
Maia wasn't, he was 8 or 9th.
It's silly to pretend McGregor's shot was only dependent on the Siver fight.

Maia and wonderboy are beating everyone in front of them, they can do no more. Woodley sat out for well over a year.

Maia had beaten Gunnar and Magny - who were 12th and 9th respectively. barely inside the top 10. But you are saying Maia deserved it more than than Woodley, which contradicts this;

at least one in the top 5 (3 even) before you get a shot

WB had Ellenberger and Hendricks.
Woodley's biggest win were Kelvin Gastelum and previously Condit. Hendricks pulled out of a title eliminator with him.
I'm not sure exactly where Gastelum and Hendricks were ranked at the time of the fight. Both were probably top 5-ish.

It's fairly clear that Woodley and Thompson were the clear front runners, based on merit of who've they beaten, ie the criterion you set above. At the time of booking it was probably a 50/50 who deserved to be ranked higher.

IMO, people are letting the fact that Woodley sat out, and that Maia and Wonderboy had big wins after 201 was booked colour their perception of who deserved it.

A few years ago it was opposite. People didtn want to fight people below them in rankings as they wanted to progress up the ranking to get a shot.

Everytime somebody fights, one is fighting somebody above them, and the other somebody above them. Always been like that, can't change.

Foxtrol

Mellor wrote: »

IMO, people are letting the fact that Woodley sat out, and that Maia and Wonderboy had big wins after 201 was booked colour their perception of who deserved it.

Unless you’re an undisputed #1 contender you shouldn’t profit from choosing to sit out, you should be punished. Even before 201 was booked, Wonderboy was much more deserving of a shot that Woodley, though I may feel that was because I place practically no value in his win over Condit.

What annoys me more is that after jumping the line to get his chance he now has the gall to try to duck the guys he jumped.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Depp

Lawler via Submission

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

he didnt beat condit, condits knee did

darced

This post has been deleted.

Depp

Lawler via Submission

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

technically on paper its a win alright but its not a real win, anything could have happened in the rest of that fight and personally i saw it as being a lot more even, not banging on woodley though hes obviously a good fighter but he shouldnt have gotten the shot after basically a year out sulking. great win for him but what he said to wonderboy after irks me a bit, wonderboy has to be the next challenger, also unless he gets a handy fight somewhere he loses his first defence with the quality of the top contenders

Mellor

Foxtrol wrote: »

Unless you’re an undisputed #1 contender you shouldn’t profit from choosing to sit out, you should be punished. Even before 201 was booked, Wonderboy was much more deserving of a shot that Woodley, though I may feel that was because I place practically no value in his win over Condit.

He didn;t sit out for 32 years like people keep saying.
He has no presumption that he was getting a shot after beating Kelvin. He booked a title eliminator verses Hendricks, the winner was getting a fight verses the winner of Condit and Lawlor.

Should Woodley be punished because Hendricks missed weight?

Depp wrote: »

technically on paper its a win alright but its not a real win, anything could have happened in the rest of that fight

Jose Aldo had a similar complaint after he lost to Conor.

he shouldnt have gotten the shot after basically a year out sulking. great win for him but what he said to wonderboy after irks me a bit, wonderboy has to be the next challenger

I think it was less to 6 months out, before he was booked. Possibly had it on paper much earlier too.

Agree completely that WB deserves the shot, the champ doesn't get to dictate. This isn't boxing

Depp

Lawler via Submission

Mellor wrote: »

Jose Aldo had a similar complaint after he lost to Conor.

fair point but aldo didnt tear his acl, he was knocked out

Mellor

Depp wrote: »

fair point but aldo didnt tear his acl, he was knocked out

Condit's ACL didn't spontaneously snap of its own accord though.
Sure, its a accident, and it wasn't the result of being directly outclassed.
But for many Woodley was winning, and to wheel out the line from above, he shouldn't be punished because Condit got injured.

Depp

Lawler via Submission

Mellor wrote: »

Condit's ACL didn't spontaneously snap of its own accord though.
Sure, its a accident, and it wasn't the result of being directly outclassed.
But for many Woodley was winning, and to wheel out the line from above, he shouldn't be punished because Condit got injured.

100% he shouldn't be punished, but he shouldn't be rewarded either is what I'm trying to get at, be different if it was from a sub attempt and condit refused to tap but essentially it was a freak accident