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UFC 201: Lawler v Woodley

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    #212
    wonderfullife
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭wonderfullife


    TimRiggins wrote: »
    Woodley already doing my head in. Undeserved title shot and already saying he won't fight the only legit challenger. Diaz has 2 losses and 1 NC (which he lost 50-45 in) but they should give him a title shot.

    Woodley/Wonderboy and Lawler/Diaz should Main and Co-Main a card.

    It's possible to make a pretty strong case that the legit challengers are Lawler (still), Maia/Condit winner, Wonderboy. I don't think it's cut and dry it has to be Wonderboy.

    The UFC are going in a different direction though.

    Nobody can argue Henderson is a legit challenger....

    Nick Diaz waltzing back in isn't a legit number 1 contender.....

    If Brock didn't pop, i'd imagine he'd have gotten the title shot against Stipe....

    WME/IMG Group will want some quick returns on their investment, and these nonsensical money-fights sell more PPV's.

    Wonderboy isn't a draw or personality. Nick Diaz is.


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    #213
    TimRiggins
    Registered Users Posts: 2,137 ✭✭✭TimRiggins


    Lawler via Submission
    wonderfullife wrote: »
    It's possible to make a pretty strong case that the legit challengers are Lawler (still), Maia/Condit winner, Wonderboy. I don't think it's cut and dry it has to be Wonderboy.

    The UFC are going in a different direction though.

    Nobody can argue Henderson is a legit challenger....

    Nick Diaz waltzing back in isn't a legit number 1 contender.....

    If Brock didn't pop, i'd imagine he'd have gotten the title shot against Stipe....

    WME/IMG Group will want some quick returns on their investment, and these nonsensical money-fights sell more PPV's.

    Wonderboy isn't a draw or personality. Nick Diaz is.

    I'm not talking about the direction the UFC are going but what Woodley was saying.

    No way was Brock getting a title shot if he didn't pop. Not with another win atleast. Bar Henderson getting a title shot (Which is a token gesture for everything he's done), the UFC don't hand out title shots to anyone. No way will Diaz get it.

    And as for the WME/IMG group wanting a quick return, they're not going to get a quick return on 4.3 billion no matter who Woodley faces. We don't know enough about them yet to say what they do/want anyway.


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    #214
    Zero-Cool
    Registered Users Posts: 29,676 ✭✭✭✭Zero-Cool


    Lawler via Submission
    Jaysus i wonder if all of Robbie's wars are finally catching up to him. Fair play Woodley, good to see the ww div get shook up. Waiting for nick is ridiculous, hope Wonderboy gets the call.


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    #215
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    TBH I think Woodley's right over the top would smash through bricks and mortar. It's lightning, his ROM is so good it gets over guards, but I really didn't expect someone of Lawler's standard would eat it. I'm surprised Lawler didn't walk him back and keep it close to negate that right power shot.

    Having said that, the step and feint was a thing of beauty, Lawler even alluding to how he bought it after the deed was done.


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    #216
    callaway92
    Registered Users Posts: 14,480 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    TimRiggins wrote: »
    Woodley already doing my head in. Undeserved title shot and already saying he won't fight the only legit challenger. Diaz has 2 losses and 1 NC (which he lost 50-45 in) but they should give him a title shot.

    Woodley/Wonderboy and Lawler/Diaz should Main and Co-Main a card.

    I'm not a big fan of Woodley but saying it was an undeserved shot AFTER the act that he beat Lawler is odd.


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    #217
    darced
    Registered Users Posts: 7,056 ✭✭✭darced


    This post has been deleted.


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    #218
    finglashoop
    Registered Users Posts: 2,112 ✭✭✭finglashoop


    Lawler via Submission
    callaway92 wrote: »
    I'm not a big fan of Woodley but saying it was an undeserved shot AFTER the act that he beat Lawler is odd.

    It was umdeserved as is dan hendersons shot..just cause he won doesn't mean he deserved it.

    Check.his.record. its worse than mcgregor getting a title shot after siver


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    #219
    Paully D
    Registered Users Posts: 28,710 ✭✭✭✭Paully D


    https://twitter.com/shaunalshatti/status/759628300163571712


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    #220
    callaway92
    Registered Users Posts: 14,480 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    finglashoop wrote: »
    It was umdeserved as is dan hendersons shot..just cause he won doesn't mean he deserved it.

    Check.his.record. its worse than mcgregor getting a title shot after siver

    Who would you have given the shot to? We all love Maia but Lawler would murder him.


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    #221
    callaway92
    Registered Users Posts: 14,480 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    Paully D wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/shaunalshatti/status/759628300163571712

    Wow. Fair play to him.


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    #222
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Lawler via Submission
    finglashoop wrote: »
    It was umdeserved as is dan hendersons shot..just cause he won doesn't mean he deserved it.

    Check.his.record. its worse than mcgregor getting a title shot after siver

    He made Robbie look average
    In any case where the challenger takes the belt in the first round the shot is clearly deserved


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    #223
    That_Guy
    Registered Users Posts: 51,342 ✭✭✭✭That_Guy


    All caught up.... HOLY HELL!!! This year is crazy for upsets.

    EDIT: Very solid night of fights bar the opening couple of fights on the main card.

    Nikita Krylov continues to impress and Jake Ellenberger with his back against the wall and then some really delivered. That body kick was one of the most vicious I've ever seen.


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    #224
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,188 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    finglashoop wrote: »
    Check.his.record. its worse than mcgregor getting a title shot after siver

    Lol
    Troll is out of the bag with that one.


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    #225
    princemuzzy
    Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭princemuzzy


    anyone thinking diaz wont get a shot because he doesn't deserve it is deluded if its a money fight ufc will make it provided they haven't already an agreement with wonderboy or a rematch for Lawlor

    McGregor didn't deserve his, Bisping didn't deserve his Nunes didn't deserve hers, faber didn't deserve his (yes he lost), Titles are becoming accessories

    they will make fights that sell not make sense


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    #226
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,188 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    princemuzzy wrote: »
    McGregor didn't deserve his, Bisping didn't deserve his Nunes didn't deserve hers, faber didn't deserve his (yes he lost), Titles are becoming accessories
    McGregor had the biggest streak in the division where the champ had already beaten everyone.
    Bisping was on short notice after Weidman got injured.

    Saying a fighter doesn't/didn't deserve a shot is nonsense if you don't give it context - ie name who they are skipping, who deserves it.


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    #227
    darced
    Registered Users Posts: 7,056 ✭✭✭darced


    This post has been deleted.


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    #228
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,275 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    Tigger wrote: »
    In any case where the challenger takes the belt in the first round the shot is clearly deserved

    Couldnt disagree more with this.

    The result has no bearing on whether the title shot was deserved or not.


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    #229
    finglashoop
    Registered Users Posts: 2,112 ✭✭✭finglashoop


    Lawler via Submission
    Mellor wrote: »
    McGregor had the biggest streak in the division where the champ had already beaten everyone.
    Bisping was on short notice after Weidman got injured.

    Saying a fighter doesn't/didn't deserve a shot is nonsense if you don't give it context - ie name who they are skipping, who deserves it.

    Woodley out for 18 months and got a shot as hendricks missed the fight. Maia condit lawler and thompson are ahead of him. Condit was injured on woodley fight. Mc donald beat him.

    Mcgregor was specifically kept away from mendes and edgar (wrestlers) beat a declining siver for his shot. Although i agreee he was highest ranked fighter aldo hadnt beaten. Mendes was short notice. He might beat both but to climd the ranks you shoild.be taking out people ahead of you.

    I never mentioned bisping ad he stepped in on short notice. Dan henderson is behind weidman rockhold jacare. Two former title holders who got.no rematch and jacare who was.next in line.

    I dont see how im.trolling. i just want a meritocracy.

    You want to be the no 1 contender. Beat someone in top 3 to get there. Miesha tate nunes holly holm fought the number 1 contender and lost title. As it should be. I didnt think holly earned her shot either and she won.

    Now woodley is actively saying he wont fight thompson and wants nick diaz . They should have mandatory challengers.


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    #230
    Mellor
    Registered Users Posts: 39,188 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    finglashoop wrote: »
    Woodley out for 18 months and got a shot as hendricks missed the fight. Maia condit lawler and thompson are ahead of him. Condit was injured on woodley fight. Mc donald beat him.
    I never mentioned Woodley.
    But as you brought it up,
    Maia hadn't beaten anyone in the top 10 when the fight was booked. He had Just beaten Gunnar.
    Condit had the previous shot.
    Thompson was booked to fight Rory.
    Lawlor could hardly fight himself.
    Mcgregor was specifically kept away from mendes and edgar (wrestlers) beat a declining siver for his shot. Although i agreee he was highest ranked fighter aldo hadnt beaten. Mendes was short notice. He might beat both but to climd the ranks you shoild.be taking out people ahead of you.
    that chestnut gets wheeled a lot. But it has no merit really.
    Mendes and Edgar never fought each other before their titleshots. Conor's path to the title was no different to any of the previous 145 contenders.
    If every contender had to defeat every guy in the top 5, we'd never get tithe fights made.
    I never mentioned bisping ad he stepped in on short notice. Dan henderson is behind weidman rockhold jacare. Two former title holders who got.no rematch and jacare who was.next in line
    I never said you mentioned Bisping. I was quoting a different poster.
    Nobody has suggested Dan Henderson deserved it either


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    #231
    finglashoop
    Registered Users Posts: 2,112 ✭✭✭finglashoop


    Lawler via Submission
    Mellor wrote: »
    I never mentioned Woodley.
    But as you brought it up,
    Maia hadn't beaten anyone in the top 10 when the fight was booked. He had Just beaten Gunnar.
    Condit had the previous shot.
    Thompson was booked to fight Rory.
    Lawlor could hardly fight himself.




    that chestnut gets wheeled a lot. But it has no merit really.
    Mendes and Edgar never fought each other before their titleshots. Conor's path to the title was no different to any of the previous 145 contenders.
    If every contender had to defeat every guy in the top 5, we'd never get tithe fights made.


    I never said you mentioned Bisping. I was quoting a different poster.
    Nobody has suggested Dan Henderson deserved it either

    You asked for context. So i gave it to you.

    Maia is a weird one as they seem to be holding him back or else people wont sign up to fight him. If its a mcgregor "chestnut" then maia should get the shot, if you use the logic he doesn't need to beat any one in the top ten.

    I didn't say everyone in top five but at least one in the top 5 (3 even) before you get a shot, unless short notice.


    Woodley has skipped over people who deserve it more than him. Dan henderson is about to do the same. Siver wasn't even top ten when mcgregor fought him ( iirc when fight was booked he magically appeared at ten in the rankings)

    Maia and wonderboy are beating everyone in front of them, they can do no more. Woodley sat out for well over a year.

    As it is now anyone can get any shot at anyone which means rankings mean little why risk fighting up the rankings?

    A few years ago it was opposite. People didtn want to fight people below them in rankings as they wanted to progress up the ranking to get a shot.

    Perfect example is Faber he can beat everyone but the champ but hes always in the mix around top of rankings. On merit


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    #232
    CatFromHue
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,150 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    Bisping fighting Henderson you can at least say it's a re match for a previous beating.

    There really is no reason for Woodley to fight Diaz.

    Were would Diaz sit in the WW rankings? That's if he still wants to be a WW as his last fight was at MW.

    Just looking at his UFC record and he beat BJ Penn in 2011, lost to Condit in 2012, lost to GSP in 2013, and then lost/NC to Silva at MW in 2015. All his losses were unanimous decisions too.

    His overall record in the UFC is something like 7 wins, 6 losses, and 1 NC


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    #233
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Lawler via Submission
    mdwexford wrote: »
    Couldnt disagree more with this.

    The result has no bearing on whether the title shot was deserved or not.

    The rankings are fluid, people move up and down and champions change (a lot these days ) if you can beat the champ you deserve a shot at them and If you can beat the champ in the first round you are a more deserving champ. It's a combat sport one of the best example of "real fighting" and as such a ability is all that matters. I dislike the idea of earning your way to the shot by grinding out split decisions while better fighters wait their turn. Dylan Tuke said somethin I liked basically he said that if two guys fight for 15 minutes on the street and no one clearly wins then it's a draw.
    Who do you think should have fought Robbie last night instead
    Who should have fought Aldo instead who should have fought Tate ?


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    #234
    callaway92
    Registered Users Posts: 14,480 ✭✭✭✭callaway92


    mdwexford wrote: »
    Couldnt disagree more with this.

    The result has no bearing on whether the title shot was deserved or not.

    Go on.......


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    #235
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,275 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    Tigger wrote: »
    The rankings are fluid, people move up and down and champions change (a lot these days ) if you can beat the champ you deserve a shot at them and If you can beat the champ in the first round you are a more deserving champ. It's a combat sport one of the best example of "real fighting" and as such a ability is all that matters. I dislike the idea of earning your way to the shot by grinding out split decisions while better fighters wait their turn. Dylan Tuke said somethin I liked basically he said that if two guys fight for 15 minutes on the street and no one clearly wins then it's a draw.
    Who do you think should have fought Robbie last night instead
    Who should have fought Aldo instead who should have fought Tate ?

    So by that rational if you fail to beat the champion your title shot was undeserved?


    I believe you should have to work your way up to get a shot.

    Then whether you win or lose you deserved your crack at it.

    I haven't said any of the above people's shots weren't deserved and it depends who else is booked at the time etc.
    callaway92 wrote: »
    Go on.......

    The above should have covered it I think.


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    #236
    SureYWouldntYa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,730 ✭✭✭SureYWouldntYa


    Nick Diaz getting a title shot would be utterly ridiculous. It's nearly 5 years since he won a fight, and the 3 fights he's lost since there was no doubt about the loses.

    There's making money fights and there's giving Diaz a title shot. GSP was champ when he left, I wouldn't argue with him getting a title shot on his return.


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    #237
    wonderfullife
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭wonderfullife


    mdwexford wrote: »
    Couldnt disagree more with this.

    The result has no bearing on whether the title shot was deserved or not.
    callaway92 wrote: »
    Go on.......

    I think what he's alluding to is Results-Based-Thinking not being a valid line of logic.

    I.e. If Gunnar Nelson had skipped the queue, and got Robbie to the ground, choked him, and was now the UFC Champion....

    That result wouldn't change the fact he didn't deserve the title shot in the first place as there were more valid contenders ahead of him.

    So the fact he arguably skipped a queue and won, doesn't necessarily mean it was right to let the guy skip the queue in first place.

    It's just results-based thinking. "Well, he won, so it was the right call".

    All that being said, i'm not certain it was that ridiculous a title shot.

    I personally believe Condit won that fight in January and deserved a rematch ahead of Woodley. You can also make a strong case Wonderboy and Maia should have been ahead of Woodley on the basis of win streaks and activity.

    All in all, though, Woodley was near the very top of that queue.


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    #238
    wonderfullife
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭wonderfullife


    SureYWouldntYa wrote: »
    Nick Diaz getting a title shot would be utterly ridiculous. It's nearly 5 years since he won a fight, and the 3 fights he's lost since there was no doubt about the loses.

    There's making money fights and there's giving Diaz a title shot. GSP was champ when he left, I wouldn't argue with him getting a title shot on his return.

    The problem is - What do you actually do with Nick Diaz?

    He's 33 on Tuesday but in fighting terms he's an old 33. Even allowing for the fact he had a break through suspension, he's had well over 30 fights and has had his fair share of wars.

    So what do you do with him?

    Outside of Conor and Ronda, stars are very thin on the ground. You've got Nate, Nick, Jon Jones, Cowboy Cerrone, Mighty Mouse, maybe a few others, who are on the next step down in terms of drawing-power - and being honest most of them are a distant step down.

    Conor and Ronda guarantees the UFC between 1m-2m PPV's per fight, and i fully expect Conor or a Conor/Ronda dual card to break the 2m+ barrier within 18 months.

    Everyone else - Jon Jones against OSP only pulled in 450,000.

    They're all a distance away.

    So what do you do with Nick?

    There's broadly 2 choices with any fighter:

    1. Set them on a title path
    2. Cash in on them with money fights.

    I just don't see the value, or the point, in tossing Nick a top 20 guy, or a top 15 guy and trying to work him up to a title shot.

    The game, and division, has gotten better while he's been out and i just don't see him making a run for the title.

    So, there's very little point tossing him Neil Magny, Matt Brown, Rick Story of any of them with a view to building him back up.

    He's got big drawing power as things stand. Tossing him a couple of top 15 guys and he's 2 or 3 losses away from being done.

    I really think the only route the UFC can go with Nick Diaz is the money fights. Whether it's Woodley, Bisping, Conor, GSP...... just cash in their chips on him with a couple of 1m+ PPV events.

    We all know he's only one blunt away from going away for another ban and Nevada Athletic Commission will throw the book at him next time. I don't think you can trust him at his age, with his record, to stick around long enough and winning enough to be on a title path.

    So toss him Woodley, Bisping or GSP, cash in.


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    #239
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Lawler via Submission
    mdwexford wrote: »
    So by that rational if you fail to beat the champion your title shot was undeserved?

    no the rational would be if you get sat down in the first your shot was undeserved
    if you get into the championship rounds you proved yourself


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    #240
    Depp
    Registered Users Posts: 4,850 ✭✭✭Depp


    Lawler via Submission
    look call a spade a spade woodley didnt deserve the shot atal, he got the shot on the head of big rig not making weight and if not for the timing of everything else thats going down at 170 he doesnt get near it, at the same time though, wether he deserved the shot or not, he grabbed his chance with both hands and fair play to him for that


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    #241
    finglashoop
    Registered Users Posts: 2,112 ✭✭✭finglashoop


    Lawler via Submission
    wonderfullife wrote: »
    The problem is - What do you actually do with Nick Diaz?

    He's 33 on Tuesday but in fighting terms he's an old 33. Even allowing for the fact he had a break through suspension, he's had well over 30 fights and has had his fair share of wars.

    So what do you do with him?

    Outside of Conor and Ronda, stars are very thin on the ground. You've got Nate, Nick, Jon Jones, Cowboy Cerrone, Mighty Mouse, maybe a few others, who are on the next step down in terms of drawing-power - and being honest most of them are a distant step down.

    Conor and Ronda guarantees the UFC between 1m-2m PPV's per fight, and i fully expect Conor or a Conor/Ronda dual card to break the 2m+ barrier within 18 months.

    Everyone else - Jon Jones against OSP only pulled in 450,000.

    They're all a distance away.

    So what do you do with Nick?

    There's broadly 2 choices with any fighter:

    1. Set them on a title path
    2. Cash in on them with money fights.

    I just don't see the value, or the point, in tossing Nick a top 20 guy, or a top 15 guy and trying to work him up to a title shot.

    The game, and division, has gotten better while he's been out and i just don't see him making a run for the title.

    So, there's very little point tossing him Neil Magny, Matt Brown, Rick Story of any of them with a view to building him back up.

    He's got big drawing power as things stand. Tossing him a couple of top 15 guys and he's 2 or 3 losses away from being done.

    I really think the only route the UFC can go with Nick Diaz is the money fights. Whether it's Woodley, Bisping, Conor, GSP...... just cash in their chips on him with a couple of 1m+ PPV events.

    We all know he's only one blunt away from going away for another ban and Nevada Athletic Commission will throw the book at him next time. I don't think you can trust him at his age, with his record, to stick around long enough and winning enough to be on a title path.

    So toss him Woodley, Bisping or GSP, cash in.

    So skip a title run and give him a title shot?


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