South Africa V Ireland, Third Test Build-up Thread

Jump_In_Jack

awec wrote: »

McCloskey would have been perfect for Saturday.

Yes, for the 3rd test he could have been a straight swap for Henshaw at 13.
I'd have been excited to see Marshall at 12, and McCloskey at 13, Payne at 15.
With that much physicality down the centre, you could have tried Gilroy and Healy on the wings for added pace.
McCloskey and Healy could be very exciting if they got the ball out wide.
Both have great lines and offloading ability.

Payne cannot be moved from 15

RoundBox11

Olding has been considered the most talented upcoming back in Ireland with oodles of skill but now after one mediocre performance people have lost interest?

He needs more than one start in the centre in a full test side before we go writing him off. What has TOH shown past pro12 level that warrants replacing Olding?

Zzippy

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Olding has been considered the most talented upcoming back in Ireland with oodles of skill but now after one mediocre performance people have lost interest?

He needs more than one start in the centre in a full test side before we go writing him off. What has TOH shown past pro12 level that warrants replacing Olding?

Are you comparing apples and oranges there? TOH at fullback to Olding at centre, neither of whom are best suited to the other position. TOH has produced some consistently great fullback play for the past two seasons. If Payne is moved to centre TOH deserves a shot at the 15 jersey. Olding has produced some very good rugby since he's come back from the knee injury, has had a shot at centre, and if Payne isn't moved to centre, probably deserves another shot there. The debate isn't TOH v Olding, it's Payne at 13 v Payne at 15, and who gets the 13 or 15 shirt depending on that. If Payne stays at 15, Olding should start in the centre. If he moves to 13, TOH should start at 15.

I don't think anyone is calling for TOH to start ahead of Olding in the centre. Yes, Olding is a very talented upcoming back, but his future is definitely seen in the centre. TOH is a fullback with far more experience and form in that position. Why are you framing the debate as Olding v TOH?

Mr Tickle

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Olding has been considered the most talented upcoming back in Ireland with oodles of skill but now after one mediocre performance people have lost interest?

He needs more than one start in the centre in a full test side before we go writing him off. What has TOH shown past pro12 level that warrants replacing Olding?

He does deserve another look. It would be better if it was beside Henshaw or maybe against a different opposition.

Moving Payne to 13 gives us good solidity. He's looked excellent from full back but in this case i think we'd benefit from a steady hand in the centre.

TOH is a lively full back who can pick nice running lines too.

RoundBox11

Zzippy wrote: »

Are you comparing apples and oranges there? TOH at fullback to Olding at centre, neither of whom are best suited to the other position. TOH has produced some consistently great fullback play for the past two seasons. If Payne is moved to centre TOH deserves a shot at the 15 jersey. Olding has produced some very good rugby since he's come back from the knee injury, has had a shot at centre, and if Payne isn't moved to centre, probably deserves another shot there. The debate isn't TOH v Olding, it's Payne at 13 v Payne at 15, and who gets the 13 or 15 shirt depending on that. If Payne stays at 15, Olding should start in the centre. If he moves to 13, TOH should start at 15.

I don't think anyone is calling for TOH to start ahead of Olding in the centre. Yes, Olding is a very talented upcoming back, but his future is definitely seen in the centre. TOH is a fullback with far more experience and form in that position. Why are you framing the debate as Olding v TOH?

Yes I'm aware of that, I was just making the case with Olding as a 12 vs TOH as a 15. I think Olding is less of a step down from Payne in the centre when compared to TOH vs Payne at fullback. A massive chunk of our attacking threat in the past two tests has come from Payne at 15.

former total

I think Olding at centre and Payne at FB is the way to get our best 15 players onto the pitch, but it must be tempting to move Payne into the centre for defensive solidity.

I suppose it depends on how TOH is performing in training

Jump_In_Jack

Potentially Marshall at 13 could be a good move.
Henshaw and Marshall could both be in contention for 13 after this tour.
For me, it's Payne at 15 from here on, with O'Halloran and Zebo hot on the heels of the out of form Kearney for the 23 shirt.

Mr Tickle

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Potentially Marshall at 13 could be a good move.
Henshaw and Marshall could both be in contention for 13 after this tour.
For me, it's Payne at 15 from here on, with O'Halloran and Zebo hot on the heels of the out of form Kearney for the 23 shirt.

And the fact that they can both play in both positions means they can be nice and flexible.
I don't know if Kearney would get the 23 shirt really. I think you want someone with a bit more flair on the bench. It may be the case that if payne got injured then Kearney is dropped straight into the 15.

jm08

Mr Tickle wrote: »

And the fact that they can both play in both positions means they can be nice and flexible.
I don't know if Kearney would get the 23 shirt really. I think you want someone with a bit more flair on the bench. It may be the case that if payne got injured then Kearney is dropped straight into the 15.

O'Halloran hasn't even played an international game yet!

I can't see Zebo being dumped just yet considering the effort Schmidt has put into his re-education at fullback. I think people forget that Zebo was carrying a knee injury since February and which he has just had surgery for.

Mr Tickle

jm08 wrote: »

O'Halloran hasn't even played an international game yet!

I can't see Zebo being dumped just yet considering the effort Schmidt has put into his re-education at fullback. I think people forget that Zebo was carrying a knee injury since February and which he has just had surgery for.

i think he technically got game time last week actually. But i wouldn't count it either.

And i never said he'd be dumped. That said i think Payne is ahead of him for the starting shirt. Zebo is either fighting for the 23 shirt or a slot on one of the wings.

I don't think that the effort that Joe has put in should be a factor. They should be judged on their performances.

Zzippy

jm08 wrote: »

O'Halloran hasn't even played an international game yet!

I can't see Zebo being dumped just yet considering the effort Schmidt has put into his re-education at fullback. I think people forget that Zebo was carrying a knee injury since February and which he has just had surgery for.

Notwithstanding the injury, Zebo is a winger, end of. He's not a fullback, at least not an international standard one. TOH may not have played a test yet, it doesn't mean he's not up there with Zebo in that position challenging Kearney, which is all the other poster said. He never said anything about dumping Zebo.

Jump_In_Jack

Zzippy wrote: »

jm08 wrote: »

O'Halloran hasn't even played an international game yet!

I can't see Zebo being dumped just yet considering the effort Schmidt has put into his re-education at fullback. I think people forget that Zebo was carrying a knee injury since February and which he has just had surgery for.

Notwithstanding the injury, Zebo is a winger, end of. He's not a fullback, at least not an international standard one. TOH may not have played a test yet, it doesn't mean he's not up there with Zebo in that position challenging Kearney, which is all the other poster said. He never said anything about dumping Zebo.

I thought Zebo played very well at fullback for Ireland a few times.
He was particularly good in the air, and has great clearances with his kicks.
Plus he has great acceleration, if he finds a gap in the middle or out wide he's dangerous, so he can run great lines from fullback.
He needs to work on his positioning, and he tends to tackle to bring down the runner in very unconventional ways, but he does usually bring the attacker down.
If he plays the whole of next season for Munster at fullback then we may see the tackling and positioning go up another level, hopefully.
The things that Joe particularly didn't like about him was that he didn't attack rucks aggressively enough, and he tended to try to attempt risky passes while being tackled.
I think he has improved on both those aspects in the past season.

Mahatma Geansai

Zzippy wrote: »

Notwithstanding the injury, Zebo is a winger, end of. He's not a fullback, at least not an international standard one. TOH may not have played a test yet, it doesn't mean he's not up there with Zebo in that position challenging Kearney, which is all the other poster said. He never said anything about dumping Zebo.

Anything to back up this assertion?

ClanofLams

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Anything to back up this assertion?

He hasn't enough experience in the position. What has he, maybe at the most 20 professional starts at 15? I would think 20 is a generous estimation. He was caught badly out of position in the Wales game this year for their try. He was good going forward in that game to be fair and if Munster play him there consistently he could well become an international level 15 but he's not at the moment which is unsurprising given his very limited gametime in the position.

Zzippy

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Anything to back up this assertion?

Personal observation and opinion, same as 99.9% of the posts on this forum. Watch him play fullback and watch him play wing, his skillset is far better suited to the wing. His defence is suspect at fullback, he's been caught out of position a few times where a fullback would have been covering across. He's a better straight line runner than picking lines through gaps as a fullback needs to, his distribution and passing isn't good enough, he's better at being in the right place to receive a scoring pass than he is at making space and giving one. His kicking is about the only aspect of his game suited to 15. He's good enough to be a regular starter for Ireland on the wing, playing him at fullback is just exposing weaknesses in his game and not doing him any favours.

Jump_In_Jack

Zzippy wrote: »

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Anything to back up this assertion?

Personal observation and opinion, same as 99.9% of the posts on this forum. Watch him play fullback and watch him play wing, his skillset is far better suited to the wing. His defence is suspect at fullback, he's been caught out of position a few times where a fullback would have been covering across. He's a better straight line runner than picking lines through gaps as a fullback needs to, his distribution and passing isn't good enough, he's better at being in the right place to receive a scoring pass than he is at making space and giving one. His kicking is about the only aspect of his game suited to 15. He's good enough to be a regular starter for Ireland on the wing, playing him at fullback is just exposing weaknesses in his game and not doing him any favours.

Sorry, that part of your argument about passing is ridiculous.
He has made some unbelievable passes when playing for Ireland at fullback.
I don't have time to go searching through Youtube highlights but I definitely remember him throwing a few massive passes after making a linebreak, and thinking that Kearney had never passed like that, and it could open a new dimension to our Irish backline.
Zebo's passing and distribution may not be perfect all the time, but he certainly has the skills.

Also, not being able to go through gaps!
That's about his best attribute. I don't think that's a fair criticism.

Jump_In_Jack

Zebo pass to Earls against Romania in the RWC 2015.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccDgqeRjsZ0

Zzippy

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Sorry, that part of your argument about passing is ridiculous.
He has made some unbelievable passes when playing for Ireland at fullback.
I don't have time to go searching through Youtube highlights but I definitely remember him throwing a few massive passes after making a linebreak, and thinking that Kearney had never passed like that, and it could open a new dimension to our Irish backline.
Zebo's passing and distribution may not be perfect all the time, but he certainly has the skills.

Also, not being able to go through gaps!
That's about his best attribute. I don't think that's a fair criticism.

I've also watched him throw simple passes into touch, and many times retain possession when a pass would have put a teammate into a much better position. Distribution isn't exactly a strength of Kearney either, so being better than him at that, while debatable, isn't exactly praiseworthy.
I just think he's better at being the final receiver and using his pace on the outside to beat defenders than taking up possession and picking a line through a defence. IMO Payne and TOH are far better at that, at distribution, and especially, defence.

Play your best players in their best position - we have better fullbacks than Zebo and not many wingers better than him.

irishbucsfan

Zebo's position could well be fullback for me. Very excited to see him play more there and wouldn't be at all surprised if he turns out to be the longer term answer

Jump_In_Jack

Zzippy wrote: »

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

Sorry, that part of your argument about passing is ridiculous.
He has made some unbelievable passes when playing for Ireland at fullback.
I don't have time to go searching through Youtube highlights but I definitely remember him throwing a few massive passes after making a linebreak, and thinking that Kearney had never passed like that, and it could open a new dimension to our Irish backline.
Zebo's passing and distribution may not be perfect all the time, but he certainly has the skills.

Also, not being able to go through gaps!
That's about his best attribute. I don't think that's a fair criticism.

I've also watched him throw simple passes into touch, and many times retain possession when a pass would have put a teammate into a much better position. Distribution isn't exactly a strength of Kearney either, so being better than him at that, while debatable, isn't exactly praiseworthy.
I just think he's better at being the final receiver and using his pace on the outside to beat defenders than taking up possession and picking a line through a defence. IMO Payne and TOH are far better at that, at distribution, and especially, defence.

Play your best players in their best position - we have better fullbacks than Zebo and not many wingers better than him.

He's obviously a great winger, his try scoring count is an obvious sign of that, but I think he is also a capable fullback.
He could play either fullback or winger in my opinion.
He is not "just a winger end of".

Whether Ireland need him more at wing than fullback is a different argument than he is not capable of playing fullback.

jm08

ClanofLams wrote: »

He hasn't enough experience in the position. What has he, maybe at the most 20 professional starts at 15? I would think 20 is a generous estimation. He was caught badly out of position in the Wales game this year for their try. He was good going forward in that game to be fair and if Munster play him there consistently he could well become an international level 15 but he's not at the moment which is unsurprising given his very limited gametime in the position.

He has 7 international caps at 15 (his last 7 inter. caps). His last couple of caps for Munster were at fullback. Felix Jones owned the 15 jersey up to his retirement.

What is interesting is that his Instagram account has him as Simonzebo15.

I think Schmidt likes to have at least one left footed kicker on the pitch which is too his advantage - other left footed players as far as I know are Luke Fitz and Rob Kearney.

pickarooney

It had been a while...

Zebo's not in the squad, lads.

mfceiling

jm08 wrote: »

What is interesting is that his Instagram account has him as Simonzebo15.

Come on now!! I had an old account that ended 75118 because it was the number plate on my old van...interesting in that my new plate ends 1658!!

AbusesToilets

I'm thinking Joe will look to stay close to the starting pack from saturday, they did a monster job on the Boks. The bench below would give better impact and explosiveness coming on.

For me:

McGrath, Best, Ross
Toner, Roux
Henderson, Heaslip, Ruddock

Murray, Jackson
Marshall, Payne
Earls, TOH, Trimble

Bealham, Cronin, Furlong, Dillane, Stander, Marmion, Olding, Gilroy

jm08

mfceiling wrote: »

Come on now!! I had an old account that ended 75118 because it was the number plate on my old van...interesting in that my new plate ends 1658!!

I think Zebo's Instagram account is fairly recent

Seriously, why would a player known as a winger, but 15 and not 11 as his social media handle?

Teferi

jm08 wrote: »

What is interesting is that his Instagram account has him as Simonzebo15.

You're playing fast and loose with the definition of interesting there now, anyway.

wp_rathead

jm08 wrote: »

I think Zebo's Instagram account is fairly recent

Seriously, why would a player known as a winger, but 15 and not 11 as his social media handle?

I think the Zebo debates have officially jumped the shark folks

ClanofLams

jm08 wrote: »

What is interesting is that his Instagram account has him as Simonzebo15.

You and I obviously have a different definition of interesting....

swiwi_

Sigh. Bloody social media again.

No good can come off it I'm telling you.