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Philip Cairns' Murder finally confirmed?

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    #242
    Means Of Escape
    Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    notsoyoungwan wrote: »
    Alice, one of the greatest victims of Cooke, has maintained a dignified silence since since these latest revelations. Some of the Lynch mob on here would do well to reflect on that.

    You have obviously not read her book When Heaven Waits .


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    #243
    Means Of Escape
    Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    Yes you've said that and made that clear.
    But why?
    I get that the Cairns family have suffered horrendously, and are deserving of every last drop.
    But why do you say that this woman, apparently a victim who has also suffered horrendously for 30+ is not worthy of any sympathy



    Your use of the word apparently voids your argument


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    #244
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    Means Of Escape wrote: »
    Your use of the word apparently voids your argument

    Ok let's take the word of a very well known community activist in Ballyfermot , highly highly regarded, who says that this woman is a victim of Cooke. And that there are many more victims of Cooke.
    I am happy to take her word, in fact.
    I used the word apparently in the absence of know the girls name.
    If we accept that this woman is a victim, will you still continue to condemn her?


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    #245
    Means Of Escape
    Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    Ok let's take the word of a very well known community activist in Ballyfermot , highly highly regarded, who says that this woman is a victim of Cooke. And that there are many more victims of Cooke.
    I am happy to take her word, in fact.
    I used the word apparently in the absence of know the girls name.
    If we accept that this woman is a victim, will you still continue to condemn her?


    Call it condemning if you like but whatever way you roll the dice not coming forward sooner (before 25 years had passed)with the information despite years of pleas was unforgivable


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    #246
    Keane2baMused
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Keane2baMused


    Means Of Escape wrote: »
    Call it condemning if you like but whatever way you roll the dice not coming forward sooner (before 25 years had passed)with the information despite years of pleas was unforgivable

    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/i-hoped-every-day-for-months-philip-cairns-26420652.html

    Have a read.

    Late 2007 a former partner of a "suspected paedophile" came forward stating this paedophile (Cooke!) was responsible, and another ex-partner confirmed same.

    The gardai investigating however closed the book on it and said it was simply not true.

    Maybe if you want to blame someone other than Cooke, blame the authorities for not doing their job with the information at hand.


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    #247
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Keane2baMused wrote: »
    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/i-hoped-every-day-for-months-philip-cairns-26420652.html

    Have a read.

    Late 2007 a former partner of a "suspected paedophile" came forward stating this paedophile (Cooke!) was responsible, and another ex-partner confirmed same.

    The gardai investigating however closed the book on it and said it was simply not true.

    Maybe if you want to blame someone other than Cooke, blame the authorities for not doing their job with the information at hand.

    From the Dalkey House of Horrors we can see how it worked. Dead and murdered babies, multiple child victims some of whom chose suicide because of their trauma, and not one of the perpetrators saw a day in jail.


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    #248
    notsoyoungwan
    Registered Users Posts: 614 ✭✭✭notsoyoungwan


    notsoyoungwan wrote: »
    Alice, one of the greatest victims of Cooke, has maintained a dignified silence since since these latest revelations.Some of the Lynch mob on here would do well to reflect on that.
    Means Of Escape wrote: »
    You have obviously not read her book When Heaven Waits .

    I have, actually.
    It looks like you didn't read my post properly though, where I said she has maintained a dignified silence since these latest revelations. No doubt she knows far more about what was said to the Gardai, who said it, what her background is etc etc, and she, more than any of us here, has greatest cause to be asking serious questions, yet she is not out publicly baying for blood.


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    #249
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    Means Of Escape wrote: »
    Call it condemning if you like but whatever way you roll the dice not coming forward sooner (before 25 years had passed)with the information despite years of pleas was unforgivable

    So this woman comes before you. She was 9 the day she witnessed Cooke standing over the unconscious bleeding body of Philip Cairns. She was so paralysed with fear that she says she fainted. She has spent the intervening years traumatised by her experience of Cooke, terrified of his threats of violence, afraid of the revenge he would wreak on her and her loved ones if she reported him, intimidated and brainwashed.
    It's only now emerging that Cooke was far more prolific, dangerous and far reaching then first thought.
    Anyway, you still maintain that she should never be forgiven for not somehow conquering her many unbearable demons to come forward.
    Tell me, have you overcome many comparable demons in your own life?


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    #250
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    No . That poster was challenged on that and was quite clear that the victims should be prosecuted for not speaking out.
    The level of ignorance of, and indifference to, the human condition displayed in some posts on this thread is terrifying.

    And I remain perfectly clear: the human condition is not an excuse from struggle against horror, difficulty, danger or threats. The mindset that we all cave in and leave others to suffer the same fate is the mindset that I am challenging. There are people who have suffered abuse and violence and fought back. On their courage redemption and protection for others has been built.


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    #251
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,710 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    You don't listen very well. Victim blaming already dismissed. The Saviles of this world are enabled by silence. End the silence, end the abuse.

    The harsh reality of Savile's abuse is that most victims only started speaking out when tabloid newspapers starting waving their cheque books around.


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    #252
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    And I remain perfectly clear: the human condition is not an excuse from struggle against horror, difficulty, danger or threats. The mindset that we all cave in and leave others to suffer the same fate is the mindset that I am challenging. There are people who have suffered abuse and violence and fought back. On their courage redemption and protection for others has been built.

    Oh go and tell Cynthia Owen that she failed the society by staying silent for 20 years recovering from her own horrific abuse.
    If you dare.


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    #253
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Keane2baMused wrote: »
    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/i-hoped-every-day-for-months-philip-cairns-26420652.html

    Have a read.

    Late 2007 a former partner of a "suspected paedophile" came forward stating this paedophile (Cooke!) was responsible, and another ex-partner confirmed same.

    The gardai investigating however closed the book on it and said it was simply not true.

    Maybe if you want to blame someone other than Cooke, blame the authorities for not doing their job with the information at hand.

    To repeat again and again and again: whoever is responsible for the disappearance is responsible as Savile was responsible. People who suffered and spoke out bear no responsibility for what happened after that. Police, bishops, managers, priests, editors who took no action bear responsibility for what continued to happen. And victims who chose to remain silent bear responsibility too. That is tough but it is the truth. If you want to rank them in order of responsibility the order is very clear but I will repeat again and again, until silence ceases to be an option abuse continues.


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    #254
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    And I remain perfectly clear: the human condition is not an excuse from struggle against horror, difficulty, danger or threats. The mindset that we all cave in and leave others to suffer the same fate is the mindset that I am challenging. There are people who have suffered abuse and violence and fought back. On their courage redemption and protection for others has been built.

    Can you give us a brief outline of your own experience of abuse and violence and how your own courage helped you to fight back, as you are setting such a very very high standard for others to reach?


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    #255
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    And I remain perfectly clear: the human condition is not an excuse from struggle against horror, difficulty, danger or threats. The mindset that we all cave in and leave others to suffer the same fate is the mindset that I am challenging. There are people who have suffered abuse and violence and fought back. On their courage redemption and protection for others has been built.

    May I ask then, what protection is built by the uninvolved condemning the victims, dismissing their pain, dismissing what happened to them, branding them cowards and placing responsibility on them for not speaking sooner? What are you doing right now to break the culture of silence? I think you are adding to it. You obviously feel passionately about it so it's awful to read some of the stuff you are writing and to think that others that hold secrets that have harmed their lives are reading it and hear in their minds their abusers telling them again "You will be blamed. It's your fault".

    You can speak of the incredible courage of those who come forward back when they know they probably won't be believed, but it is only incredible courage if they are so up against it that many or most couldn't find that strength to do it. Otherwise, it's just routine, isn't it?

    I was writing this when I saw your post, so excuse if this seems slightly disjointed or repeats what I've just said directly to you.

    The latest stories seem to be leaning more and more towards that she was indeed a victim of him, and that there was a girl who was forced to return Philip Cairns' bag to the laneway where it was found. The evil of this man, forcing a child to become an accomplice in this is just ..incredible. And it certainly gives a whip-hand over that little girl - woman now - that she would be blamed too. The reactions from some people, not only in this thread, but in other threads and comment sections, support that, and, tragically, become another brick in the wall of silence that for many decades has surrounded abuse and child abuse in this country.

    At the time that this happened, children faced a hugely uphill battle to report abuse and cruelty. Remember that even the Magdalen Laundries - the place where "wicked girls", who told lies, who said when an adult had hurt them, who were accused of promiscuity were sent - were still open. The last, in Waterford, didn't close until 1996.

    People have talked about the culture of silence, that others were victimised because people didn't speak up. But they contribute to that culture by condemning those who come forward once that culture is being slowly broken down. I hope for this woman's sake that we -don't- find out who she is, or her direct involvement. It sounds like it has shadowed her life already, and it also sounds like there are those who would be happy to make her life even more of a misery.

    The monster here is Eamonn Cooke. The second monster is what happens when well-meaning, ordinary people, hurt and condemn victims and make it all the harder for the next one to come forward.


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    #256
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    To repeat again and again and again: whoever is responsible for the disappearance is responsible as Savile was responsible. People who suffered and spoke out bear no responsibility for what happened after that. Police, bishops, managers, priests, editors who took no action bear responsibility for what continued to happen. And victims who chose to remain silent bear responsibility too. That is tough but it is the truth. If you want to rank them in order of responsibility the order is very clear but I will repeat again and again, until silence ceases to be an option abuse continues.

    Once again , I think I could understand your rigid viewpoint if you could tell me as briefly as you like, under what circumstances you were terrified and traumatised, (equivalent to this woman's experience) and in what way you spoke up in spite of threats to your own or your family's safety.
    You obviously feel that your experience gives you an entitlement to set a very high bar for everyone else.
    You couldn't possibly be setting that bar from the position of someone who hasn't suffered trauma at the hands of a monster, and overcome it.
    That would make you arrogant on a breathtaking scale, and obviously your not.


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    #257
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    Can you give us a brief outline of your own experience of abuse and violence and how your own courage helped you to fight back, as you are setting such a very very high standard for others to reach?

    You are trying to argue that someone puts forward an argument in favour of a policy they must have personal experience of it.


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    #258
    Means Of Escape
    Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    Can you give us a brief outline of your own experience of abuse and violence and how your own courage helped you to fight back, as you are setting such a very very high standard for others to reach?

    The Colgans suffered years of abuse at the hands of their father and spoke out as did countless others
    There were plenty of inspirational people who broke the fear.
    Would you be as understanding if it was your own child who went missing ?


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    #259
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    so did Cooke make a bedside confession or not??


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    #260
    Samaris
    Registered Users Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Means Of Escape wrote: »
    The Colgans suffered years of abuse at the hands of their father and spoke out as did countless others
    There were plenty of inspirational people who broke the fear.
    Would you be as understanding if it was your own child who went missing ?

    Again, note that these people were -exceptional-, and at least those siblings had each other to support them. Even in the Dalkey House of Horrors, some siblings denied anything had happened, and some changed their story or admitted that some of it did.

    And I cannot answer that, but I can talk of people I know, and personal experience, of just how hard it is to speak up when something bad happens to you, when you're a child and you don't fully understand if it was wrong, if it wasn't and you're just over-reacting. And what happens when you do, and nothing can be done about it. The authorities fail you.

    Maybe if it was my child, I would condemn, I would be angry, I would want the person who added to my suffering to hurt too. But as a person uninvolved in this case, I have some duty to being objective rather than knee-jerk emotional and seeking someone to blame. I don't have the damn right to pretend I know what the people involved are suffering. I don't have the right to form a lynch mob based on what I think the parents and family are feeling when it harms another. To do that just adds to the victim list.


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    #261
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    You are trying to argue that someone puts forward an argument in favour of a policy they must have personal experience of it.

    So, let's get this straight, having led a trauma and abuse free life (so far) yourself, cosy and safe and protected and sheltered from the pain and the fear, you've just "decided" that victims of trauma and abuse who DO live everyday with the pain and the fear,are cowards and should be prosecuted on an equal basis to their abuser.
    Isn't that it in a nutshell ?


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    #262
    Means Of Escape
    Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    fryup wrote: »
    so did Cooke make a bedside confession or not??

    Doubt it
    He had nothing to lose he was on deaths door.
    Had he been pulled from the bed by the hair he may have offered more .


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    #263
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    It's amazing how quick people are to turn on the victim here. Looks like the guards had the knowledge of his involvement for many years now and she only added to the puzzle back in 2011 actually.


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    #264
    _Whimsical_
    Registered Users Posts: 7,955 ✭✭✭_Whimsical_


    They've just said on the radio that the woman who came forward was 9 years old and an abuse victim when she witnessed the attack on Philip.
    It is heart breaking for everyone.

    His wife also came forward immediately once it was mentioned to her that this man might have been involved in Philip Cairns disappearance by a counselor she was seeing. His wife had been a sex abuse victim by the priest Bill Carney and gave birth to his child. She's now being harassed and has small children she's very worried about.
    Unbelievably tragic.


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    #265
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    The ONLY person who bears ANY responsibility for abuse is the abuser.

    Victims are not responsible for the behaviour of someone else.

    I fear there are a lot of naive and ignorant people putting forward hurtful and nonsensical opinions on this.

    Please remember that many abuse victims will read this thread and attitudes of victim blaming will only serve to further silence them.


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    #266
    fryup
    Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    on rte radio 1 now!


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    #267
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Samaris wrote: »

    The monster here is Eamonn Cooke. The second monster is what happens when well-meaning, ordinary people, hurt and condemn victims and make it all the harder for the next one to come forward.

    Talk of monsters is emotive and of no benefit dealing with any human situation. The distinction I made and repeat again and again is that victims are never blamed for being victims: but the responsibility to protect others from the same fate isn't ended by being a victim.

    The legal competence of children and the legal consequences of duress are topics that I would have thought went without saying but maybe not.


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    #268
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    Means Of Escape wrote: »
    The Colgans suffered years of abuse at the hands of their father and spoke out as did countless others
    There were plenty of inspirational people who broke the fear.
    Would you be as understanding if it was your own child who went missing ?

    Your giving examples of people who DID feel strong enough to come forward.
    In your opinion, an individuals personal circumstances don't matter.
    The Colgans were able to stand as a family.
    This woman appears to be on her own.
    Makes no difference to you.
    This woman has missed the bar, off with her head.
    I'd like to think that if Philip Cairns were my child I'd be able to reach out to another victim of his murderer, but then that's just me.


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    #269
    Fleawuss
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    wokingvoter wrote: »
    So, let's get this straight, having led a trauma and abuse free life (so far) yourself, cosy and safe and protected and sheltered from the pain and the fear, you've just "decided" that victims of trauma and abuse who DO live everyday with the pain and the fear,are cowards and should be prosecuted on an equal basis to their abuser.
    Isn't that it in a nutshell ?

    For you yes. But if your view fits in a nutshell it belongs there.


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    #270
    wokingvoter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭wokingvoter


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    Talk of monsters is emotive and of no benefit dealing with any human situation. The distinction I made and repeat again and again is that victims are never blamed for being victims: but the responsibility to protect others from the same fate isn't ended by being a victim.

    The legal competence of children and the legal consequences of duress are topics that I would have thought went without saying but maybe not.

    Is Cooke not a monster then?


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    #271
    Means Of Escape
    Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Means Of Escape


    mhge wrote: »
    It's amazing how quick people are to turn on the victim here. Looks like the guards had the knowledge of his involvement for many years now and she only added to the puzzle back in 2011 actually.

    Those who you are naming as people who are victim blaming are simply lamenting the lost opportunity to bring this guy to justice , to have ended the Cairns suffering years ago and possibly preventing other who were abused by Cooke and others in the intervening years by the victims late revelations.
    Furthermore the now almost impossible chance of the lads body ever being found and with it closure .


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