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Season 6 Episode 7 "The Broken Man" - "Book readers"

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    #152
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    kingshankly wrote: »
    Looks a certainty to me that he ends up fighting on behalf of the faith in a trial by combat against his brother
    And won't be revealed until fight time and we get to see cersei's face turn to fear
    With him killing the mountain and finally get revenge

    Given the events of episode 7 why would the Hound fight for the faith?

    It seems to me like that episode put the nail in the coffin of that theory.


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    #153
    OhHiMark
    Registered Users Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭OhHiMark


    intheclouds wrote: »
    Given the events of episode 7 why would the Hound fight for the faith?

    It seems to me like that episode put the nail in the coffin of that theory.

    Which events do you mean?


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    #154
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,959 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Paddy Cow wrote: »
    I find it hard to believe that most of the North would be rallying around the Boltons. The Freys broke the most sacred oath, that once you offered your guests bread and salt, they were safe in your house. The Boltons helped the Freys murder the army of the North and I honestly don't think the north would forgive such treachery. The Boltons are monsters and go around flaying whoever they wish. It would make more sense for the other houses to want to get rid of both the Freys and Boltons.
    The thing is, the Boltons are currently on top, and in uncertain times people want strength over morals. House Stark has been decimated and scattered to the winds. Ravens are a luxury, without them news travels slowly. As far as most folk know there is no male heir, and even if they know about Rickon, he's in Bolton hands thanks to the Umbers.

    However, the Bolton position is not quite secure, for the simple reason that their Lord and most of their troops are at Winterfell, and not at the near-impregnable Dreadfort:
    Jon Snow wrote:
    I know the Dreadfort. It is a strong castle, all of stone, with thick walls and massive towers. With winter coming you will find it well provisioned. Centuries ago, House Bolton rose up against the King in the North, and Harlon Stark laid siege to the Dreadfort. It took him two years to starve them out.
    I expect that when the Starks finally confront the Boltons at Winterfell, they will take advantage of better knowledge of secret passages etc.

    I'm still trying to catch up on the many houses in the North, reading bits about them on the Wiki. For example, I wonder whether House Flint of the Mountains will make an appearance at some point? They are connected to the Starks through Arya Flint, grandmother to Ned Stark and his siblings, and namesake of Arya Stark. Lord Torghen Flint is elderly, but his son and heir "Black" Donnel Flint, could turn up at some point. His brother Artos was on Stannis's doomed march on Winterfell, but that doesn't mean he's dead.

    (Not to be confused with House Flint of Widow's Watch, which fought with Robb Stark. Their leader, Lady Lyessa, hasn't been heard from for years, but her son, Lord Robin Flint, was killed at the Red Wedding.)

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #155
    rawn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭rawn


    intheclouds wrote:
    Given the events of episode 7 why would the Hound fight for the faith?


    The Faith didn't kill his friends, the BWB did


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    #156
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,557 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    intheclouds wrote: »
    kingshankly wrote: »
    Looks a certainty to me that he ends up fighting on behalf of the faith in a trial by combat against his brother
    And won't be revealed until fight time and we get to see cersei's face turn to fear
    With him killing the mountain and finally get revenge

    Given the events of episode 7 why would the Hound fight for the faith?

    It seems to me like that episode put the nail in the coffin of that theory.

    If anything that episode showed the hound softening a bit towards the faith of the seven, leaving him a prime target to be manipulated by the high sparrow.


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    #157
    jones
    Registered Users Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭jones


    snotboogie wrote: »
    If anything that episode showed the hound softening a bit towards the faith of the seven, leaving him a prime target to be manipulated by the high sparrow.

    I thought the exact opposite. For me it showed the hound that faith in whatever god was a waste of time as they wont save you. You have to do it yourself...hence the grabbing of the axe and I'm assuming heading off for vengeance


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    #158
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    snotboogie wrote: »
    If anything that episode showed the hound softening a bit towards the faith of the seven, leaving him a prime target to be manipulated by the high sparrow.

    Huh? It showed him that not being violent only got you killed and that while the "dream" of the peaceful hippy life was a nice one, you cant live in that world without being willing to defend yourself against bad men and kill them if necessary.

    Its a violent world. There is no peaceful way of life. The Hound knew that before, then he wanted to believe something different but the end proved that he had been right all along.

    Why else did he pick up the axe and march off?


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    #159
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,557 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    intheclouds wrote: »
    snotboogie wrote: »
    If anything that episode showed the hound softening a bit towards the faith of the seven, leaving him a prime target to be manipulated by the high sparrow.

    Huh? It showed him that not being violent only got you killed and that while the "dream" of the peaceful hippy life was a nice one, you cant live in that world without being willing to defend yourself against bad men and kill them if necessary.

    Its a violent world. There is no peaceful way of life. The Hound knew that before, then he wanted to believe something different but the end proved that he had been right all along.

    Why else did he pick up the axe and march off?

    The High Sparrow is a violent man, or at least more than willing to use violence to get what he wants. The people of the faith of the seven helped The Hound so he may be more willing to listen to people like the High Sparrow whom he would have out rightly dismissed before.


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    #160
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    snotboogie wrote: »
    The High Sparrow is a violent man, or at least more than willing to use violence to get what he wants. The people of the faith of the seven helped The Hound so he may be more willing to listen to people like the High Sparrow whom he would have out rightly dismissed before.

    I cant really see a path that leads to that tbh, I dont know how the Hounds storyline would bring him into contact with the High Sparrow when he is (I assume) on a revenge mission miles from Kings Landing.

    Nor could I see the Hound paying any heed to someone like the High Sparrow who is not a humble man like Ray was.


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    #161
    snotboogie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,557 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    intheclouds wrote: »
    snotboogie wrote: »
    The High Sparrow is a violent man, or at least more than willing to use violence to get what he wants. The people of the faith of the seven helped The Hound so he may be more willing to listen to people like the High Sparrow whom he would have out rightly dismissed before.

    I cant really see a path that leads to that tbh, I dont know how the Hounds storyline would bring him into contact with the High Sparrow when he is (I assume) on a revenge mission miles from Kings Landing.

    Nor could I see the Hound paying any heed to someone like the High Sparrow who is not a humble man like Ray was.

    The high sparrow pretends to be humble at least. There are a million ways that The Hound could come into contact with the High Sparrow but I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens :)


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    #162
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,150 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    The hound gave his motivation in this very episode: he's driven by hate. Hate for Gregor. Who it just so happens will be representing Cersei in the Trial by Combat...

    Oberyn Martell was no great fan of Tyrion Lannister when he stood for him against the mountain so why wouldn't Sandor stand for anyone else that'd let him kill his older brother? ;)


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    #163
    Hrududu
    Registered Users Posts: 1,711 ✭✭✭Hrududu


    I do think we'll get a Hound vs Mountain in the trial by combat. I just don't know how we'll get there and if it will be this season or not.

    My theory on Arya is that
    she was way too out in the open for the threat posed by the faceless men. So it was a setup and she's got some fakery going on to make it look like she's been stabbed. Bladder full of fake blood or something like that (possibly from the acting troupe). Then bleeds all over the streets of Braavos for effect making them think they killed her.


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    #164
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,843 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    intheclouds wrote: »
    I think Cersei and her trial of combat will be fought between the Mountain for the Crown and Ser Loras for the Faith. When the Mountain has Loras in a position where he will die, the Hound will jump in and save him just like at the Hands Tourney.

    You'd miss King Robert though wouldn't you? The roads were safe, the tourneys were fun, there was much less death and destruction all round.

    Aye, you could leave your door open at night and not get mugged by a 2 metre-tall man with horrific facial burns. :pac:


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    #165
    rawn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭rawn


    Hrududu wrote:
    I do think we'll get a Hound vs Mountain in the trial by combat. I just don't know how we'll get there and if it will be this season or not.


    He'll set of after the BwB, and overhear talk of Cersai's champion. Makes his way to KL to fight for the HS, who will gladly accept.


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    #166
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,415 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Hrududu wrote: »
    I do think we'll get a Hound vs Mountain in the trial by combat. I just don't know how we'll get there and if it will be this season or not.

    My theory on Arya is that
    she was way too out in the open for the threat posed by the faceless men. So it was a setup and she's got some fakery going on to make it look like she's been stabbed. Bladder full of fake blood or something like that (possibly from the acting troupe). Then bleeds all over the streets of Braavos for effect making them think they killed her.
    That knife went in up to the hilt. It wasn't a pocket knife either and Arya doesn't have six inches of padding. That theory doesn't stack up at all.


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    #167
    OhHiMark
    Registered Users Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭OhHiMark


    RopeDrink wrote: »
    Based on the previous episode, my thoughts are as follows. Arya will survive (shock horror) and Jar won't be happy that waif let her 'suffer' rather than give a quick death, as was asked of her. There'll be some weird twist where Jar probably turns on Waif for constantly showing she's not really acting like the Faceless Men should - Arya gets off with a tap on the wrist, or probably kills all of them... because reasons.

    (shrug)

    Don't particular care about how her arc pans out - I do definitely want to see how they handle the hound now, as well as the Jaime/Brienne reunion given there's no SPOILER]Stoneheart[/SPOILER but from what was on offer in the promo, it's safe to assume they'll sew in some tension with both wanting/needing the castle from fish.

    Why do you spoiler the thing that everybody knows about and leave in the bit from next week's episode, that I'm sure a lot of people have avoided?


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    #168
    LionelNashe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭LionelNashe


    A trial by combat is definitely what we're being led to expect, but I haven't a clue how it can happen in a believable way. Why would the high sparrow risk sending anyone up against the zombie mountain? He doesn't have anyone who can beat him that we know of, (unless he has zombie Oberyn, which he doesn't). If the Hound fights, I would say the chances of him winning are 50-50 at best, and I don't see the high sparrow leaving it up to chance like that. The HS has surprised his enemies at every opportunity, so for him to just do exactly what Cersei expects now would be weak.


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    #169
    rawn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭rawn


    LionelNashe wrote:
    A trial by combat is definitely what we're being led to expect, but I haven't a clue how it can happen in a believable way. Why would the high sparrow risk sending anyone up against the zombie mountain? He doesn't have anyone who can beat him that we know of, (unless he has zombie Oberyn, which he doesn't). If the Hound fights, I would say the chances of him winning are 50-50 at best, and I don't see the high sparrow leaving it up to chance like that. The HS has surprised his enemies at every opportunity, so for him to just do exactly what Cersei expects now would be weak.


    He won't have a choice. If Cersai wants a trial by combat, he has to enter a champion. Enter the Hound, probably the only person in the kingdom who would voluntarily fight him


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    #170
    LionelNashe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭LionelNashe


    rawn wrote: »
    He won't have a choice. If Cersai wants a trial by combat, he has to enter a champion. Enter the Hound, probably the only person in the kingdom who would voluntarily fight him

    He doesn't have another choice that you or I or Cersei can see, but I think he's more imaginative than us three.


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    #171
    rawn
    Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭rawn


    LionelNashe wrote: »
    He doesn't have another choice that you or I or Cersei can see, but I think he's more imaginative than us three.

    This is true. I'm pretty sure the right to a trial by combat is a sacred law, like their guest rights :)


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    #172
    Falthyron
    Registered Users Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭Falthyron


    LionelNashe wrote: »
    A trial by combat is definitely what we're being led to expect, but I haven't a clue how it can happen in a believable way. Why would the high sparrow risk sending anyone up against the zombie mountain? He doesn't have anyone who can beat him that we know of, (unless he has zombie Oberyn, which he doesn't). If the Hound fights, I would say the chances of him winning are 50-50 at best, and I don't see the high sparrow leaving it up to chance like that. The HS has surprised his enemies at every opportunity, so for him to just do exactly what Cersei expects now would be weak.

    Loris Tyrell defeated The Mountain on horseback at the tournament in Season 1. The Mountain, in his anger, then cheated and attacked Loris when the competition was deemed over. The Hound stepped in to save Loris, but King Robert told them both to stop.

    The High Sparrow will offer Loris his freedom if he fights The Mountain. I want 'Cleganebowl', but The Hound is too far away to be swayed to fight for the Faith and come to King's Landing before the end of Season 6. Unless Littlefinger offers him the use of his telepetyr. :D


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    #173
    LionelNashe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭LionelNashe


    Falthyron wrote: »
    Loris Tyrell defeated The Mountain on horseback at the tournament in Season 1. The Mountain, in his anger, then cheated and attacked Loris when the competition was deemed over. The Hound stepped in to save Loris, but King Robert told them both to stop.

    The High Sparrow will offer Loris his freedom if he fights The Mountain. I want 'Cleganebowl', but The Hound is too far away to be swayed to fight for the Faith and come to King's Landing before the end of Season 6. Unless Littlefinger offers him the use of his telepetyr. :D

    I think that the high sparrow might use Loras as his champion. Then, either Cersei loses her trial or else the Tyrells lose their male heir ("the future of their house"). Win-win for the high sparrow, if his ultimate goal is to damage the Tyrells or the Lannisters or both. I wonder if he would sacrifice Loras though, because Loras is his leverage over Margaery, and he needs to keep Marge under his thumb in case she does an about-face and un-converts Tommen.


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    #174
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    This whole trial of Cersei's - Has any other reason been given for such a delay to it other than 'because season finale'? I mean, something in-story? Is it even coming this season?

    Right now, for Cleganebowl to happen this season, they have 3 episodes including the finale to get Sandor to King's Landing. Not only that, but for him to find out about the trial, the fact that his brother is Cersei's defender. Does Sandor find out about the whole Mountain/Viper battle and more importantly the result - That Gregor is no longer the same and is something else entirely now? I know the show has upped the pacing compared to previous seasons and many of the characters have found out how to 'fast travel' around Westeros, but there's still a lot to be done for Cleganebowl to happen this season in my opinion.

    If Cersei's trial is going down this season, the most likely of combatants for the Faith would be Loras as far as the story has gone. Of course, the Mountain would absolutely destroy him and Cersei would win her trial. But knowing the High Sparrow, he would be fully aware that he would be gaining more from this than just putting up some random warrior to take on and defeat The Mountain.

    In choosing Loras, the High Sparrow would deliver a crippling blow to House Tyrell in having the future of their house (as Loras has been referred to twice that I can remember this season) bludgeoned to death at the trial by Cersei's Mountain. Yes, this is a victory for Cersei, but a short-lived one. As a result of this the Tyrell's (Lady Olenna anyway, and most importantly) will seek to obliterate the Lannisters and the High Sparrow will have, in his own eyes, set about a course for both houses to wipe each other out. Checkmate.

    So, as much as I want The Hound v The Mountain, I can see reasons why Loras might end up taking Sandor's place. Loras would know that he would have no chance against the Mountain, but I could see the High Sparrow presenting this as a chance for Loras to honour himself and be renewed in the light of the Seven, or some propaganda like that. Basically, "If you win Loras, as you will with the Faith on your side, you go free." We all got a glimpse at how broken and desperate Loras was when we last saw him. Who knows what he's willing to do to get a chance at freedom.

    What about Margery? How would she stand by and let this happen now that her and the High Sparrow are BFFs? I'm not buying any of that. Yes, Margery is playing the role of Sunday Schooler very well, but I fully expect the HS to still be one step ahead of her. Presenting Loras as The Faith's defender could be his way of showing Margery "Don't bullsh*t a bullsh*tter".

    All that said, I don't think the show brought The Hound back to just go around axe-murdering BWB, and still hold out hope that somehow he will end up at the trial in King's Landing. If not in the trial himself, maybe as an observer up until the moment The Mountain goes to land the killing blow to Loras. Echoing season one, The Hound will save Loras' skin, but this time it will have the significance in that it will be the spanner in the works for the apparently all-seeing High Sparrow. The unseen dagger, the one thing he hadn't accounted for in all of his planning.

    Okay, gonna stop there, but just one more thing - Ian McShane was da bomb in 'The Broken Man'.


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    #175
    nicki11
    Registered Users Posts: 353 ✭✭nicki11


    LionelNashe wrote: »
    I think that the high sparrow might use Loras as his champion. Then, either Cersei loses her trial or else the Tyrells lose their male heir ("the future of their house"). Win-win for the high sparrow, if his ultimate goal is to damage the Tyrells or the Lannisters or both. I wonder if he would sacrifice Loras though, because Loras is his leverage over Margaery, and he needs to keep Marge under his thumb in case she does an about-face and un-converts Tommen.

    I like this theory but is Loras in any condition to fight and I don't Margaery would let him risk it Oberyn may have defeated the hound but he still died. Do wonder how Tommen was able to be so naive growing up with Joffery as his brother though :confused:


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    #176
    Washington Irving
    Registered Users Posts: 7,066 ✭✭✭Washington Irving


    nicki11 wrote: »
    Do wonder how Tommen was able to be so naive growing up with Joffery as his brother though :confused:

    Noticed this too. In the books he's nine, but he seems mentally stunted for his age in the show.


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    #177
    LionelNashe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭LionelNashe


    nicki11 wrote: »
    I like this theory but is Loras in any condition to fight and I don't Margaery would let him risk it Oberyn may have defeated the hound but he still died. Do wonder how Tommen was able to be so naive growing up with Joffery as his brother though :confused:

    There would have to be one hell of a training montage.


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    #178
    Paddy Cow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭Paddy Cow


    Falthyron wrote: »
    Loris Tyrell defeated The Mountain on horseback at the tournament in Season 1. The Mountain, in his anger, then cheated and attacked Loris when the competition was deemed over. The Hound stepped in to save Loris, but King Robert told them both to stop.

    The High Sparrow will offer Loris his freedom if he fights The Mountain. I want 'Cleganebowl', but The Hound is too far away to be swayed to fight for the Faith and come to King's Landing before the end of Season 6. Unless Littlefinger offers him the use of his telepetyr. :D
    Loras was the one who cheated. He used a horse that was in heat so the Mountains horse was upset and unseated him. My laptop is a bit rubbish and I can't post the link but if you youtube Ser Loras vs The Mountain, Littlefinger tells Sansa and Ned that Loras cheated and Sansa didn't believe him.

    It's a good theory and I could see the HS wanting to use Loras as his champion, as no way would Loras win and it would further divide the Tyrells and Lannisters. I can't see it happening though. Loras is weak. We saw how broken he was when talking to Margery.

    The HS might actually want a champion who would win. If he wins, then Cersei dies and then he has Tommen all to himself. Maybe the HS has been taken in by Margery but even if he hasn't, Margery's power has been diminished. The greatest trickster of them all, Olenna, has been banished to High Garden and Margery is never left alone.

    There's so many possibilities and anything could happen. One thing we do know though, is that Cersei's prophecy said that she would outlive her children and the only one left is poor innocent Tommen. I'm finding the episodes are dragging a little bit but I can't wait to find out how all the story lines tie up.


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    #179
    wp_rathead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,067 ✭✭✭✭wp_rathead


    rawn wrote: »
    He won't have a choice. If Cersai wants a trial by combat, he has to enter a champion. Enter the Hound, probably the only person in the kingdom who would voluntarily fight him

    ..well, the only person now..

    BpFy9dwCMAABaTm.jpg


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    #180
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,843 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    ..well, the only person now..

    [IMG.]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BpFy9dwCMAABaTm.jpg[/IMG]

    Can you host that pic somewhere else? All I'm seeing is a broken link.


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    #181
    J. Marston
    Registered Users Posts: 23,104 ✭✭✭✭J. Marston


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Can you host that pic somewhere else? All I'm seeing is a broken link.

    It's a picture of Oberyn's pancaked head.

    I still hadn't read the books at that stage and I was not prepared for that death.


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