Snobbery in education.

Permabear

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crusha101

I would agree that this occurs but it works both ways. I work part-time as a shop assistant in a rougher part of the city and whenever customers ask me what I am doing and I tell them I go to the local university, 9 times out of 10 they reply with " I thought universities were for ponces, snobs etc.."

Ush1

Permabear wrote: »

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I think you're being overly pragmatic when it comes to the mindset of most Irish students.

Most I would dare say are just trying to do their best, rather than "if I study harder, I'll be able to go to this certain college".

Permabear

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steddyeddy

The points system isn't enough on it's own IMHO. I think it should be complemented with interviews.

crusha101

I think it's common for people to decide what course they would ideally like to do, and then try to achieve the points to get into that course.

I don't think this is quite true for the majority of people I did the LC with, I know personally my course was in the middle 300's but I didn't study to get in the middle 300's I studied to get the most points I could .

steddyeddy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I find the "snobbery" is not always a one way street. Plenty of people just waiting to slag you off for going to what they think is a better college. Their issue really. I think sometimes people view colleges in the same way as designer clothes - the name might be "designer" but the quality is another thing. My undergrad was in Trinity. It was an over-subscribed, high points course. The same course in UCD was actually far superior, from a teaching perspective. If I'd to do it all again I wouldn't step food inside TCD to be honest (at least for that course)

Oh yes of course. When I went to UCD some people thought I assumed I was better than them. When I moved on from UCD to my current position people said the same. When I published people tried to bring me down. Snobbery is universal.

Ush1

Permabear wrote: »

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Just try to achieve as much points as you can seems the better strategy.

Aiming at a specific amount of points just puts a cap on your options.

OldNotWIse

And there's the other kind of snobbery.[/QUOTE]

How?

Permabear

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Permabear

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OldNotWIse

Still waiting for Permabear to explain how my post came across as "snobbery"

Permabear

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Ush1

Permabear wrote: »

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Hope it works out for her, but it's a poor strategy IMO and one I would certainly discourage my children from taking.

OldNotWIse

Permabear wrote: »

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Well I want you to explain it :pac: Sorry, my mistake

ancapailldorcha

OldNotWIse wrote: »

And there's the other kind of snobbery.

How?[/QUOTE]

Saying you wouldn't set foot inside TCD because you think you're better than that.

OldNotWIse

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

How?

Saying you wouldn't set foot inside TCD because you think you're better than that.[/QUOTE]

Except that's not what I said.

CramCycle

rhabarbarum wrote: »

Ah, the age-long practice of telling people that your life choices are superior to theirs.

Mine have been terrible.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

How?

Saying you wouldn't set foot inside TCD because you think you're better than that.[/QUOTE]

I think they meant they now know that specific course is not great compared to another similar course in a different institution. Hardly snobbery.

ancapailldorcha

Why wouldn't you set foot inside TCD then? That's the usual reason I heard from people when I said where I went. Most of whom seemed to have no desire at all to advance themselves oddly.

Edit: I just reread your post. I thought you went to UCD as you didn't want to go to TCD. My bad.

steddyeddy

Permabear wrote: »

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You can't be this sexy, intelligent and modest without that happening.

OldNotWIse

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Why wouldn't you set foot inside TCD then? That's the usual reason I heard from people when I said where I went. Most of whom seemed to have no desire at all to advance themselves oddly.

Edit: I just reread your post. I thought you went to UCD as you didn't want to go to TCD. My bad.

No I went to TCD because it was on my bus route actually. In hindsight I should have actually looked into the course more but what do we know at 17

steddyeddy

There's snobbery everywhere though. My OH (not hydroxyl group science guys ) studied pharmacology and got a lot of slaggings for not studying biochemistry.

gutenberg

gutenberg wrote: »

Was that for the undergraduate programme, or across all their programmes - law school, business school, school of government etc? I know a few Irish people doing a postgraduate degree at Harvard - typically either at the Business School or at the Kennedy - but 29 students at undergraduate seems very high, given the small size of Harvard College and how it's much more difficult to get in as an international student at undergrad level.

Ha - that is interesting - I was looking at the rough numbers of undergrad admissions to Harvard (about 2,000 per year) compared to the number of people who finish high school in the USA every year (about 3,000,000) and reckoned the Irish equivalent school would have an intake of about 30 per year.

If those 29 were undergraduates then the Irish equivalent of Harvard is .... Harvard.

gutenberg

Deleted User wrote: »

Ha - that is interesting - I was looking at the rough numbers of undergrad admissions to Harvard (about 2,000 per year) compared to the number of people who finish high school in the USA every year (about 3,000,000) and reckoned the Irish equivalent school would have an intake of about 30 per year.

If those 29 were undergraduates then the Irish equivalent of Harvard is .... Harvard.

It'd be interesting to know. If it is the figure for admission to Harvard College (and I doubt it), then it's very impressive in light of how difficult it is for international students to get in - the class of 2019 is 11.6% is international, but when you stop to think about it, you realise that that 11.6% is drawn from the whole world, while the other c. 88% is American. Not saying it's easy to get in as an American, far from it, but it's very very tough as an international student.

steddyeddy

The US school system has some serious problems.

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ha - that is interesting - I was looking at the rough numbers of undergrad admissions to Harvard (about 2,000 per year) compared to the number of people who finish high school in the USA every year (about 3,000,000) and reckoned the Irish equivalent school would have an intake of about 30 per year.

If those 29 were undergraduates then the Irish equivalent of Harvard is .... Harvard.

The economist article I pointed to said that, conversely, the foreign graduate intake in elite American institutions, often for STEM subjects as it happens (which is of course what you get Nobel prizes for: note economics is considered stem) is 70% plus.

Which makes you wonder if the undergraduates courses in elite institutions are so good there why is the uptake not entirely elite American and if the undergraduate courses so bad everywhere else how do they let these foreign grads in? Or grads from other schools?

The answer is for stem subjects at least you get in with good grades and a good or relevant final year thesis, one relevant to the masters they are teaching or the PhD you might want to do. Then you interview.

It's only at post graduate level that the real eliteness of these schools takes off and it depends on the other schools feeding into them being up to standard at under grad levels.

Eugene Norman

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The economist article I pointed to said that, conversely, the foreign graduate intake in elite American institutions, often for STEM subjects as it happens (which is of course what you get Nobel prizes for: note economics is considered stem) is 70% plus.

Nobel prizes are for Chemistry, Literature, Peace, Physics and Physiology or Medecine.

Economics is a Nobel Memorial Prize.

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nobel prizes are for Chemistry, Literature, Peace, Physics and Physiology or Medecine.

Economics is a Nobel Memorial Prize.

The university relevant ones (the ones given to professors) are stem. Peace is for politicians. Literature for writers.

Radiosonde

Eugene Norman wrote: »

The university relevant ones (the ones given to professors) are stem. Peace is for politicians. Literature for writers.

If a Nobel Laureate graduated from your university, it counts towards its ranking in any system that takes account of Nobels. Hence Maynooth benefits from John Hume's Peace prize, and TCD from Samuel Beckett's Literature win.

amen

What an interesting thread as it reveals a lot about the Irish mind set.

I have a STEM degree from one of the newer Irish Universities (DCU) and I have worked in Industry for over 20 years in a field somewhat related to my degree.

In all that time I have worked with people from many different educational backgrounds and countries. In my experience the institution in which you completed your degree or even the grade of your degree has little or no bearing on how well you will succeed in your career.

I have worked with many people from highly ranked Irish and International Institutions and in general I find those that did well* in the Leaving Cert ( or their Nations similar exams) perform best irrespective of where they attended University/College or what their final grade was.

As for STEM vs Arts Degrees I can only speak from experience but I think both are equally hard but STEM can force a more rigorous approach to data analysis and decision making. That said I have seem some bizarre decisions made by professionals.

Icemancometh wrote: »

I have a technical education myself, from one of the Universities in Ireland (not sure if medicine is included in STEM, but I don't think it is). This has given me entry into a well remunerated career, with it's associated pressures and responsibilities. But am I better educated then an Arts graduate? I earn more (probably), but that is hardly a good reflection on education. I know little of philosophy, sociology, anthropology, history, geography, languages, fine art, music, literature, mathematics, computer science, physics and many other areas I can't even think of. Given this depth of ignorance, how could I be a snob?

This to me is what is wrong with the education system in general. We are often very focused learning what we need ignoring other disciplines or we stop learning when we leave education.

Its up to the individual to broaden their mind, to make learning a lifelong pursuit. I try and learn something new everyday, practice a skill, teach someone else how to do something (best way to know if you understand something).












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