Snobbery in education.

Permabear

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steddyeddy

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes indeed. Substantial numbers of students who undertake science aren't up to the task.

MRnotlob606

I hate market-driven education. I mean seeing education as just an assembly line of students for the workforce. Yes, that's what it is in, but its more than just that. You should always do what you love, not do something because it will get you a job.

Permabear

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The Randy Riverbeast

Within Ireland where you go doesn't really matter. Maybe IBM like NUIG because they know their computer science course covers something important to them but it is nowhere near like America where the name of the college can be the difference between getting a job or not. Undergrads tend to be the cash cows to fund the important rank getting activities like research anyway. Telling me a place is the best at research is of little use to a person looking for a degree.

If I was hiring a person I wouldn't pay much attention to the college they went to, it is like caring about what levelling cert points a person got when they have a 1:1 in physics.

Roadtoad wrote: »

Anyone here interested in trusting their kid's health to an 'I.T.' Doctor with 290 leaving cert points (if such a qualification existed) ?

From my experience with med students with 550+ points I dread the idea of my health being in their hands.

One eyed Jack

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'll put it this way Jack the basis of what I'm saying is it is equally factual to say some degrees are harder to get into and complete and some universities are harder to get into and complete.

Some people are displaying massive cognitive dissonance on the issue.

But when you say that STEM degrees are better to have, I mentioned earlier that I've met guys with PhD's in software development, who are far more educated than I am, but they have zero, I mean zero social skills to be able to work in a team environment. They have these incredible minds, but they're utterly going to waste for lack of social skills.

Then I meet a young student from Nepal who has been educated at second level in the UK, and at third level here in Ireland, and we were talking about the standard of software development engineers in India, he reckons many of them are poor, but any I've ever met with have been brilliant. Would they be as good as what MIT are churning out?

I have no idea as it's impossible to quantify. If people don't make use of their education, then what use is it to them? Whether someone was educated in DIT or UL is of no consequence if they don't possess the skills to be able to make use of their education.

RedemptionZ

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes indeed. Substantial numbers of students who undertake science aren't up to the task.

:rolleyes: You're displaying an inability to see the other sides point of view, they mustn't have taught you that in your elite science courses.

Eugene Norman

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've never met anybody who thinks STEM degrees are better. Just because you studied science, it does not mean it's better and more difficult than other degrees. Some universities are certainly better than others (I don't think anyone can argue with that, an undergraduate Oxbridge degree would beat almost any Irish degree) but it is not a fact that STEM degrees are seen as a better degree to have. They may be to some people like a hiring manager in a lab maybe, just as a French degree is seen as better to a hiring manager for a linguistic role and just as a journalism course is seen as better to a hiring manager for any media roles.

They are clearly harder degrees. The idea that gender studies, media studies are on the same level of difficulty as physics is utter nonsense.

It's interesting that the kind of people who think that certain schools have higher quality courses in general but certain courses can't be higher quality. That makes no sense.

Eugene Norman

RedemptionZ wrote: »

:rolleyes: You're displaying an inability to see the other sides point of view, they mustn't have taught you that in your elite science courses.

He's arguing his point of view, why would he agree with the opposition?

Eugene Norman

One eyed Jack wrote: »

But when you say that STEM degrees are better to have, I mentioned earlier that I've met guys with PhD's in software development, who are far more educated than I am, but they have zero, I mean zero social skills to be able to work in a team environment. They have these incredible minds, but they're utterly going to waste for lack of social skills.

I've never met this in industry. Presumably these guys get weeded out. Any industry would expect engineers and scientists to go to meetings, and demo, and present. Many are outgoing.

Then I meet a young student from Nepal who has been educated at second level in the UK, and at third level here in Ireland, and we were talking about the standard of software development engineers in India, he reckons many of them are poor, but any I've ever met with have been brilliant. Would they be as good as what MIT are churning out?

I'm not sure of your ability to judge but they can be quite weak yes.

I have no idea as it's impossible to quantify. If people don't make use of their education, then what use is it to them? Whether someone was educated in DIT or UL is of no consequence if they don't possess the skills to be able to make use of their education.

sure but you haven't provided much evidence that scientists can't or don't use their education.

Eugene Norman

Icemancometh wrote: »

I have a technical education myself, from one of the Universities in Ireland (not sure if medicine is included in STEM, but I don't think it is). This has given me entry into a well remunerated career, with it's associated pressures and responsibilities. But am I better educated then an Arts graduate? I earn more (probably), but that is hardly a good reflection on education. I know little of philosophy, sociology, anthropology, history, geography, languages, fine art, music, literature, mathematics, computer science, physics and many other areas I can't even think of. Given this depth of ignorance, how could I be a snob?

Conversely I'm better read than most arts students. And yes medicine is STEM. It's the M.

Science, technology, engineering and medicine.

Ficheall

I feel this is an appropriate place to mention that I am currently studying at Berkeley.

It's only a two-week course, but still.. BOW BEFORE ME, YOU IGNORANT SCUM.

CramCycle

NoCrackHaving wrote: »

I do think the content or difficulty of courses can vary between universities/IT's etc. For example is the course content and student ability of a Chemistry degree at UCD going to be the same as one at Imperial or one at Cambridge or one at MIT or one at Stanford? I genuinely don't believe it is. It's not snobbery but is a recognition that not all degrees are necessarily of a similar standard of difficulty even if they're in the same subject.

Not relevant to the discussion but (not a chemist myself), the Undergrad degree in Chemistry is actually looked at really strongly by American colleges in regards taking them up for postgrad positions. They are generally considered more knowledgable and rounded than their own undergraduates.

PLL wrote: »

Regarding IT vs. University - read exam papers for the same modules from each college. Then you'll fully understand why IT's have the rep they do. The exams are easier to pass because there isn't as much critical thinking required. Just cram the info into your head and recite it straight back out

Having lectured in both, you are missing the point that both degrees will have been stood over by the same awarding body. The simplicity of the question is irrelevant, if you just answer the question basically, you will barely pass. The marking scheme is assessed independently in award years by external examiners from similar courses in other 3rd level institutes. My own exams were assessed by TCD and DIT when I was teaching in an IT and when in a University they were from NUIM and ITT. Give a simple answer to a simple question, you will get a bare pass, give a detailed one, you will do better. Give a simple but correct answer to a complex quesstion, you will pass, it is in fact, in my opinion easier to get a higher mark if you know the course with the more targeted question as you can't wander from the marking scheme.

Deleted User wrote: »

Have to agree. My mate was in 3rd year of a level 7, one more year would give him a level 8. It was an area I didn't study in but there were 2 papers I saw that I could've passed there and then.

As above, what you think is a pass, may not be a good pass or a high mark.

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

Of course there is a difference between courses and educational institutes. A degree from Trinity will almost certainly be of a higher standard that a degree in Graphic Design and Lawnmower Maintenance from some obscure IT in a small town in the provinces. That's not snobbery, that's fact.

If TCD offer a course in Graphic Design and Lawnmower Maintenance then maybe you could compare.

I have an extremely well regarded MBA. I got onto this programme by having a 1st from Trinity alongside the required work experience. This in turn opened up the doors that allowed me to have the career I now have. I wouldn't have the job (or indeed the view) I now have if I had taken the easy option of arsing around getting a 3rd rate MBA from Smurfit Business School in UCD.

And I know people who had top of the class in trinity and struggled with employment as their course was behind the times. It depends what you want and what you are looking for. in general a first from similar courses across a broadly similar subject area should produce comparable graduates with most likely different strengths.

Chickarooney wrote: »

I'd bet the majority of people who are splitting hairs over where your degree came from are spending too much time thinking about the shlt that doesn't matter and less time focusing on becoming successful.

Precisely.

Someone close to me began his career with a Fas course. He's now 35 and earning 200,000 a year. He doesn't spend time worrying that he didn't get a degree in the right college and when he's hiring staff he doesn't give a toss about where their education came from as long as they have the qualification and experience required.

And thats the key. A good interviewer will see it within a minute of starting an interview, and will know for certain within 10.

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

Within Ireland where you go doesn't really matter. Maybe IBM like NUIG because they know their computer science course covers something important to them but it is nowhere near like America where the name of the college can be the difference between getting a job or not. Undergrads tend to be the cash cows to fund the important rank getting activities like research anyway. Telling me a place is the best at research is of little use to a person looking for a degree.

Exactly, some courses have some links which may time them to one area, UL have engineers that have a little push towards nearby businesses for example.

From my experience with med students with 550+ points I dread the idea of my health being in their hands.

+1

Long story short, snobbery is a sign of issues with the snob, which may indicate a lack of understanding of their field.

One eyed Jack

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I've never met this in industry. Presumably these guys get weeded out. Any industry would expect engineers and scientists to go to meetings, and demo, and present. Many are outgoing.

I'm not sure of your ability to judge but they can be quite weak yes.

sure but you haven't provided much evidence that scientists can't or don't use their education.

The point I was making was in response to eddy's suggesting that it's better to have a degree in STEM as though that's the only criteria that actually matters in terms of a person's career development.

It's an entirely subjective point. I can't see eddy's biochem credentials being of much use in a production of Swan Lake for example, but the technical proficiency of the dancers involved takes just as many years of perseverance, dedication, commitment, education and skill as any discipline in STEM.

Easca Peasca

I'm in the last weeks of my Arts degree. I've often taken stick (some in jest, some more serious) for doing a "pointless" degree.

On one occasion I was being lectured by a gent who was tearing my BA to pieces, on about job prospects etc. When I corrected him saying that I planned to do the PME with Irish was one of my subjects, an area in which there are job opportunities for second level teachers, he said "Jesus, will you Gaelgeoirs ever shake off the superiority complex?"

Needless to say I haven't had a chat with him since :P

CramCycle

Mr.S wrote: »

That's the exact same for 90% of degrees, regardless of where they come from.

It is, modularisation has been the death of 3rd level education standards in many courses in Ireland. Some courses have adapted and infused prior knowledge into their examiniations but many haven't. This is not a symptom of specific institutions, it is an issue of the system accross the board.

Icemancometh

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Conversely I'm better read than most arts students. And yes medicine is STEM. It's the M.

Science, technology, engineering and medicine.

Think the M is mathematics, but perhaps medicine and other health sciences fall under the S

Eugene Norman

Eugene Norman wrote: »

They are clearly harder degrees. The idea that gender studies, media studies are on the same level of difficulty as physics is utter nonsense.

It's interesting that the kind of people who think that certain schools have higher quality courses in general but certain courses can't be higher quality. That makes no sense.

They are not harder degrees. You have no evidence to conclude that they are. Just because you studied science does not mean it's harder or better than any other degree.

I do think certain courses are better than others but I don't think STEM courses as a whole are better or harder than other courses. I guess only someone who studied both can really tell and then it's not as if everybody has a standard level of intelligence anyway that can be used to determine the difficulty of a course. Some people require little effort to get good grades while others have to put in serious effort.

Eugene Norman

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Conversely I'm better read than most arts students. And yes medicine is STEM. It's the M.

Science, technology, engineering and medicine.

You would have to have actually met most arts students to be able to make that assessment.

The M is for Math.

RedemptionZ

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Conversely I'm better read than most arts students. And yes medicine is STEM. It's the M.

Science, technology, engineering and medicine.

Why did you feel the need to say this? Sounds like some sort of inferiority complex. And as others pointed out, you're wrong about the M part. Are you sure you have a STEM degree?

Giblet

I find people who act like this usually feel they need to prove something to somebody.

What exactly, is a mystery, best left to the schoolyard.

It's not like you exactly walk into a job after college knowing much, for most the degree is only the start of your education.

CramCycle

Better read than what? I imagine I am better read in Biochemistry, Immunology and Genetics than most (possibly not all) undergrad arts students but in return I imagine most arts students are better read in their respective areas than myself.

One eyed Jack

Giblet wrote: »

I find people who act like this usually feel they need to prove something to somebody.

What exactly, is a mystery, best left to the schoolyard.

It's not like you exactly walk into a job after college knowing much, for most the degree is only the start of your education.

Ahh it's not really. I mean, if I went to a prestigious institution that's known for only taking in the cream of the crop, and turning out an even creamier crop*, I'd be tempted to write it in 72pt font on my resumé too!


It's something to be proud of, basically.


*I have no idea where that idiom came from, but I'm pretty sure I've just broken it :pac:

William Shakespeare died on this date in 1616.

I hope someone told him before he died that his scribblings aren't nearly as important as a STEM degree.

mzungu

Candie wrote: »

William Shakespeare died on this date in 1616.

I hope someone told him before he died that his scribblings aren't nearly as important as a STEM degree.

From what I heard somebody did...and thats how poor ol Billy died

True story!

He left his wife, Anne Hathaway, his 'second-best bed' in his will.

I'd have been fuming with him if I was Anne. That's very bold.

Permabear

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Dughorm

Academic snobbery within Ireland is a bit of a joke - there really isn't a massive difference between ITs/Universities at undergraduate level in my opinion.

Academic snobbery comparing 3rd level in Ireland with abroad is a whole other story and quite justified given the dumbing down process here.

Permabear

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Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

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The irony is that real polymaths see the value in a diverse and wide ranging palette of areas, as opposed to those with narrow parameters of what they consider valuable or worth knowing or exploring.

The greatest geniuses the world has known have been polymaths. From Leonardo DaVinci, Descartes and Aristotle to Benjamin Franklin, Philip Warren Anderson and Carl Shulman.