How does ireland not have free healthcare?

LordSutch

BrokenArrows wrote: »

How does ireland not have free healthcare?

Because the National Health Service was formed in 1948, after we had left the UK.

The ROI left the UK in 1922 while Northern Ireland remained, hence they have the NHS and we don't.

volchitsa

Having people pay for their healthcare doesn't seem to reduce costs, if anything it pushes them up, look at the US which (pre Obama) has had a hugely expensive health care system which managed to leave large numbers of working families with grossly insufficient or no health insurance.

Rather like in Ireland, they have a system where the well off (or well insured) can get the latest most expensive care with no thought for the costs, and the poorest have some sort of free care (probably too readily in Ireland, based on who your TD is, as much as on your needs, and possibly not easily enough in the US) and the majority in the middle pay full whack.

It's not a fair system because it penalizes many of the very people who work and pay taxes to fund it.

Gone Drinking

Icemancometh wrote: »

I'd be surprised if that's what happened (but it might be the case). Typically, in public hospitals anyway, orthopaedic teams take turns being on call. The on-call team admits all orthopaedic patients over 24 hours to their care and then treats them after that. The only time I've seen that change is when a patient of another surgeon is re-admitted, or due to time constraints, another surgeon performs the operation (the operating team should always look after the patient so your care would transfer on that basis).

On a more cynical level, when you're private the consultant gets a fee. If you were admitted under Mr A, and then Prof B swoops in and takes over your care for that fee, he's taking it from Mr A. That wouldn't go down well for obvious reasons.

There was no orthopedic on call, I was assessed by an A&E doctor who advised me that the orthopedic surgeons come in at 6:30am and I have to wait for them. I was first looked at by a younger orthopedic surgeon who assessed me and said obviously surgery is required, but he didn't perform it, the Professor did.

After that I never saw that younger guy again, I only dealt with the Professor.

I'm obviously guessing that this was the reasoning, but that in my opinion is what the signs point to. Either way, everyone I dealt with was great so I was happy out regardless.

Wanderer78

volchitsa wrote: »

It's not a fair system because it penalizes many of the very people who work and pay taxes to fund it.

this is how neoliberalism works, or doesnt work in this case, i.e. move taxes off the wealthy onto the labor force. its working a dream!:rolleyes:

poa

BrokenArrows wrote: »

When i say Free i mean you dont pay per visit, it comes out of taxes.

Ive been living in London for the past 6 years and I have to say having "free" healthcare is great. If there is something wrong with you, then you call the GP and arrange a visit. Might be a few days or more wait to get an appointment if its not an emergency. You get checked out. No charge at all. Need surgery then no charge at all.
Broken bones, no charge.
Medicine is cheap. A week of antibiotics cost me 7 Pound (€10)

The UK's budget to offer this free service is 96 Billion Pounds for a population that 14 times the size of ireland.

Irelands budget to offer this non free service is 10 Billion Pounds (13Billion Euro).

You pay €60 euro to see a doctor who does nothing but writes a prescription, and you pay a bunch more for the medicine. €100 euro if you need to go to the emergency room and around €275 if you break a bone.

So how can ireland not have a free service when they are paying significantly more per person to run the hospital system. If you were to scale down the UK budget then it should be 6.8 billion pounds (8.7 Billion Euro).

So irelands paying 33% more to run the non free health system than the UK spends to run a free system. Granted that their are economies of scale to take into consideration but FFS!

And then to top it all off i worked out how much more i would pay in tax in ireland and if i take my salary here and convert it to Euro then i would pay 8% more tax in Ireland.

And the Irish government wonders why people dont want to move "home"!!!

** And when i say TAX i mean all mandatory deductions from my pay packet.

Ireland has 4.6m people.
The UK has 66m people.
One cannot compare the two.
66m v 4.6m, bigger country with more tax coming in, smaller country with less tax coming in.
We have medical cards and health insurance here, and for 4.6m that is the best solution.
If Ireland had say 10m then an NHS would be viable, but we don't; so it isn't.
London has 6.6m alone, and an NHS wouldn't work in that city alone if it weren't for the remaining 60m population. And that is with only say around 50% of them working and paying tax into the system. One needs around 50% paying taxes into an NHS to make it viable.
In Ireland say 2.3m paid into an NHS it wouldn't be viable for the whole 4.6m. The running costs would be too high.

Liam O

Here's one for everyone. I work for a company who supplies the HSE. For every delivery we make to them we have to be able to provide a proof of delivery. This part is fine, we use a courier and they give us a tracking number that can be checked/printed or whatever online that is present on every invoice.

I have started getting emails to provide proof of deliveries of invoices which have the tracking numbers on them, which are on the invoices beside the invoice number they are copying into the email. The reason you ask why they are incapable of checking the tracking themselves? The couriers website is blocked in their purchasing office. So instead of being able to just put in the tracking information and have it within 5 seconds they have to type an email, get the invoice number from beside the tracking number, email it me who then enters it on the couriers website at my leisure and emails them back a few days later if at all. This is the type of organisation our taxes pay for.

gctest50

Liam O wrote: »

..The couriers website is blocked in their purchasing office.

saves someone being accused of using the courier to move their couch or something

Liam O wrote: »

So instead of being able to just put in the tracking information and have it within 5 seconds they have to type an email, get the invoice number from beside the tracking number, email it me who then enters it on the couriers website at my leisure and emails them back a few days later if at all. This is the type of organisation our taxes pay for.

If ( since ) they have the staff anyway, they can just filter the emails from you and stick them in a folder

Nice record far into the future that a responsible person actually checked them

uptherebels

Last time I needed an x-ray here a number of years ago, I went to the CUH with a doctors note. From entering to leaving the hospital it was eight hours. I was seen by a very nice young nurse who was getting loads of grief from the busy A&E because of the waiting times.
I clearly needed an X-ray as one elbow was about twice the size of the other but was told i needed to wait for a doctor to sign the form so I sit and wait for about 4 hours.
After the doctor signs the form I go to the x-ray section, not a single other patient in the place! takes about ten minutes back to the waiting room.
Wait about another three hours for the doc to look at the x-ray to be told my elbow is fractured but they cant actually see the break because of the swelling or the position my arm is stuck in because of the swelling. Given a sling and told to come back for physio in a few weeks.

A few years later in in the UK and need another x-ray because of a dodgy football tackle- in and out in about 30 mins and that was only because i let someone in a lot of discomfort go ahead of me in the queue.

All for a system like the NHS but only being able to go to the hospital for non emergency visits after making a paid trip to the GP and GP's being strict on not sending uneccesary cases

uptherebels

uptherebels wrote: »

All for a system like the NHS but only being able to go to the hospital for non emergency visits after making a paid trip to the GP and GP's being strict on not sending uneccesary cases

Some time ago on another thread, I mentioned how GPs are sending non emergency patients to A & E instead of referring them to a consultant, due to long waiting lists, and I was shot down over it. A & E should be for genuine emergencies only.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Half the time the GP will refer you on to a and e anyway, no wonder it's always packed. My GP accepts people with medical cards and it's impossible to get an appointment. You could be waiting for 4 days unless you're really sick and they make a big song and dance about giving you an appointment. The nurse calls and assesses if you're bad enough over the phone. I always ask how am I supposed to know in advance if I'm going to be ill but apparently there are people who can tell the future. You go in and it's always the same faces in the waiting room. Always.
And then he'll just write a letter for a+e

Amfyoyo

That's as may be Poa, but David Cameron isn't paid what Dame Edna is, and most certainly does NOT have €1.2million in expenses on top of that.....I can appreciate Ur comments vis Population, but if U take land mass and compare how we as a County operate 'everything', the sheer SIZE of the Bureaucracy simply can't continue

There was a report proposed last year to see where precisely costs could be cut/money saved BUT, Consultant pay was 'ring fenced'.....We simply cannot afford to keep shoveling the Finance we are into a 'Service' which is producing ever worse results,year on year, it MUST be tackled in totality,otherwise,the 'train' will simply run out of track...traveling at full tilt!!

L1011

Wanderer78 wrote: »

The eu and imf don't like public health care or public anything for that matter. We won't have free health care anytime soon if ever

Practically every country in the EU has public healthcare of some sort. We are not under IMF control.

Knowledge of basic facts seems rather lacking on this thread.

L1011

Amfyoyo wrote: »

That's as may be Poa, but David Cameron isn't paid what Dame Edna is, and most certainly does NOT have €1.2million in expenses on top of that....

His salary is almost identical at current Sterling to Euro rates and was higher before Sterling fell due to brexit. His expenses would be far higher due to more international travel.

If you don't actually know stuff, please stop making it up.

enfant terrible

angel eyes 2012 wrote: »

Insurance certainly does not allow you to skip public queues. You can have certain procedures done privately which anyone can avail of whether they have insurance or not, however it will cost you. Insurance covers the daily cost of staying in a public bed. I was waiting on an organ transplant and I can assure you that my insurance did not allow me to skip any queue. I was declined a medical card too. So again a misconception that a chronic illness results in obtaining a medical card.

The HSE has a not very well advertised scheme available to everyone called 'the treatment abroad scheme" which followed some EU Directive or ruling. Basically, it allows you to avail of an operation or procedure abroad and the HSE pays for the cost.

Is there any real advantage to having insurance so?

L1011

enfant terrible wrote: »

Is there any real advantage to having insurance so?

Scans, primarily. This could be critical in certain cancers.

You could easily afford to pay for these privately if you can afford high-end health insurance though.

Wanderer78

L1011 wrote: »

Practically every country in the EU has public healthcare of some sort. We are not under IMF control.

Knowledge of basic facts seems rather lacking on this thread.

i beg to differ. the imf and the world bank have a lot to answer for. between them, they are the main reason why most of the planet is heavily indebted and imposing austerity not just in ireland but in many countries around the world. one of the main reasons for austerity is to force privatisation of public services and assets such as health care systems. it is indeed a scam. i therefore believe major financial institutes such as the imf and the world bank are the true controllers of our country's, amongst others, leading me to believe that our 'democratic' systems are close to being defunct , if not already.

i have been informed by workers in our public healthcare system, that our system is almost completely wrecked. i know somebody that has just recently left our public system mainly due to pay and conditions, and have gone working in the private healthcare system. i know somebody else working in our public system and is slowly developing mental health problems due to the fact. i personally do believe this is the neoliberal plan, i.e. forced privatisation!

this is all very deeply disturbing to watch

L1011

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i beg to differ. the imf and the world bank have a lot to answer for. between them, they are the main reason why most of the planet is heavily indebted and imposing austerity not just in ireland but in many countries around the world. one of the main reasons for austerity is to force privatisation of public services and assets such as health care systems. it is indeed a scam. i therefore believe major financial institutes such as the imf and the world bank are the true controllers of our country's, amongst others, leading me to believe that our 'democratic' systems are close to being defunct , if not already.

i have been informed by workers in our public healthcare system, that our system is almost completely wrecked. i know somebody that has just recently left our public system mainly due to pay and conditions, and have gone working in the private healthcare system. i know somebody else working in our public system and is slowly developing mental health problems due to the fact. i personally do believe this is the neoliberal plan, i.e. forced privatisation!

this is all very deeply disturbing to watch

Conspiracy theory forum is that way

"beg to differ" when you're wrong on core facts doens't work. "Austerity" just means actually covering your costs, something we still don't do here. Nothing more.

Wanderer78

L1011 wrote: »

Conspiracy theory forum is that way

"beg to differ" when you're wrong on core facts doens't work. "Austerity" just means actually covering your costs, something we still don't do here. Nothing more.

highly recommend the work of economists such as michael hudson, bill black, ellen brown and ha-joon chang for further info. thank you

enfant terrible

L1011 wrote: »

Scans, primarily. This could be critical in certain cancers.

You could easily afford to pay for these privately if you can afford high-end health insurance though.

How expensive are scans privately do you know?

L1011

Wanderer78 wrote: »

highly recommend the work of economists such as michael hudson, bill black, ellen brown and ha-joon chang for further info. thank you

I don't consider conspiracy theorists and nutbars to be economists.

You are ignoring facts and spouting nonsense. There is a forum for that here - its not this one.

volchitsa

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Half the time the GP will refer you on to a and e anyway, no wonder it's always packed. My GP accepts people with medical cards and it's impossible to get an appointment. You could be waiting for 4 days unless you're really sick and they make a big song and dance about giving you an appointment. The nurse calls and assesses if you're bad enough over the phone. I always ask how am I supposed to know in advance if I'm going to be ill but apparently there are people who can tell the future.

TBF that also happens in the NI NHS, certainly in our doctors' surgery anyway. You practically have to beg for an appointment. (But I'm still a huge supporter of the NHS, for having experienced several other countries. At its best it's incomparable IME.)

L1011

enfant terrible wrote: »

How expensive are scans privately do you know?

First Google hit but the prices seem correct enough

http://www.affidea.ie/price-list/

100-300 depending on the scan. You may need a few, but its unlikely to exceed the cost of a decent insurance premium in a year but it does stop you needing the cash there and then.

Maternity services are another popular use of insurance but since Mt Carmel closed that has even waned a bit. You can't remove maternity cover from your premium, which is *really* useful for a gay male - I've managed to find a policy with terrible maternity cover instead which is the cheapest going for what I want.

freedominacup

poa wrote: »

Ireland has 4.6m people.
The UK has 66m people.
One cannot compare the two.
66m v 4.6m, bigger country with more tax coming in, smaller country with less tax coming in.
We have medical cards and health insurance here, and for 4.6m that is the best solution.
If Ireland had say 10m then an NHS would be viable, but we don't; so it isn't.
London has 6.6m alone, and an NHS wouldn't work in that city alone if it weren't for the remaining 60m population. And that is with only say around 50% of them working and paying tax into the system. One needs around 50% paying taxes into an NHS to make it viable.
In Ireland say 2.3m paid into an NHS it wouldn't be viable for the whole 4.6m. The running costs would be too high.

Oh boy!! Hard to know if this one isn't a complete wind up.

Wanderer78

L1011 wrote: »

I don't consider conspiracy theorists and nutbars to be economists.

You are ignoring facts and spouting nonsense. There is a forum for that here - its not this one.

moving on in life. thank you for nothing really. you can take up your grievances with those ive mentioned. actually id also recommend irish economist stephen kinsella as well. hes more than willing to exchange communications on such matters. i guess some of the universities around the world must be employing errr emm 'nutbars' these days!:rolleyes:

screamer

TBH it's the wrong people have free healthcare in ireland. Workers who pay taxes for it should benefit. Think about people who are sick who work and now with the rules that you aren't entitled to any social welfare payment for the first 6 days. So if your employer doesn't pay you you're down money. Now imagine that person can't afford a doctors visit and meds....... and every day they are out of work the government is missing out on taxes. But Danny dolehead can go any day multiple times a day free of charge and pay 2.50 for meds so he can be back in the bookies tomorrow......... the working people should be looked after they are the ones keeping the lights in in this country not the long term net spongers.

L1011

Wanderer78 wrote: »

moving on in life. thank you for nothing really. you can take up your grievances with those ive mentioned. actually id also recommend irish economist stephen kinsella as well. hes more than willing to exchange communications on such matters. i guess some of the universities around the world must be employing errr emm 'nutbars' these days!:rolleyes:

I'm pretty certain he's not going to agree with your rather surreal and twisted outlook - consider anyone actually being paid in such a field wouldn't be able to maintain such insane views.

Ally Dick

enfant terrible wrote: »

How expensive are scans privately do you know?

I had to go for a MRI on my back, and the bill was €100 but I had VHI so didn't have to pay for it. It was a lot cheaper than I would have thought

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

screamer wrote: »

TBH it's the wrong people have free healthcare in ireland. Workers who pay taxes for it should benefit. Think about people who are sick who work and now with the rules that you aren't entitled to any social welfare payment for the first 6 days. So if your employer doesn't pay you you're down money. Now imagine that person can't afford a doctors visit and meds....... and every day they are out of work the government is missing out on taxes. But Danny dolehead can go any day multiple times a day free of charge and pay 2.50 for meds so he can be back in the bookies tomorrow......... the working people should be looked after they are the ones keeping the lights in in this country not the long term net spongers.

This is true. Couple years ago I was after leaving my work to look after a terminally ill parent and I wasn't well at all up and down throughout the year. I wasn't on social welfare, didn't have a medical card, and I was leaving myself so sick because I didn't have the 50 euro to hand the doctor every few weeks, and it was building up and up. My dad was very ill in hospital so couldn't help me and the guy I was sort of seeing at the time was offering to pay but I'd be weird about taking money from people. It ended up me being an inpatient for 2 5 day stays and some random 1/2 night stays. Then you see people who've never worked running to the dr with a sniffle

Taco Chips

Amfyoyo wrote: »

There was a report proposed last year to see where precisely costs could be cut/money saved BUT, Consultant pay was 'ring fenced'.....We simply cannot afford to keep shoveling the Finance we are into a 'Service' which is producing ever worse results,year on year, it MUST be tackled in totality,otherwise,the 'train' will simply run out of track...traveling at full tilt!!

Consultant pay was slashed in the last few years and there was a subsequent recruitment crisis because the same eminently qualified consultants could work in literally any other English speaking country for multiples of what was being offered here. They rowed back a little bit on it but still not enough and there a re plenty of vacant posts because of the short sightedness of these measures. Pay of health care workers actually makes up a very small percentage of the HSE budget. The real savings are in the incredible, jaw dropping levels of waste and inefficiency of systems management.

enfant terrible

L1011 wrote: »

First Google hit but the prices seem correct enough

http://www.affidea.ie/price-list/

100-300 depending on the scan. You may need a few, but its unlikely to exceed the cost of a decent insurance premium in a year but it does stop you needing the cash there and then.

Maternity services are another popular use of insurance but since Mt Carmel closed that has even waned a bit. You can't remove maternity cover from your premium, which is *really* useful for a gay male - I've managed to find a policy with terrible maternity cover instead which is the cheapest going for what I want.

Would you not be better off putting the money you would pay for health insurance each year in a savings account?

Then using that money for scans if the time comes you need them?