How does ireland not have free healthcare?

Corruptedmorals

Yes I wouldn't be cheering our waiting lists any time soon.

Orthopaedics - 3 years
ENT- 18 months- 2 years
Opthalmology - 1 year
Paeds rheumatology - 2-3 years
Paeds ENT 3 years
Paeds Orthopaedics 18 months
Paeds cardiology 18 months

They're so bad that some of the private waiting lists are bad too, 3 paeds specialities that I know of are 8 months each in Crumlin. The HSE have had to introduce a scheme to have people waiting the longest seen as public patients in private rooms out of hours.

questionmark?

I ain't defending the mess that is the HSE but to say the NHS is free is utter nonsense.

Once you earn over £155 per week you pay 12 pence out of every pound you earn for national insurance that goes towards funding the 'free' NHS and the benefits system. You pay wheter you use it or not. Would people in Ireland be happy to pay extra tax for the doctor out of their wages. Ya right.
The NHS is also in disarray in many of the Trusts that run each district just not at the same level of ****eness as the HSE.

YFlyer

Unhealthy people love free health care.

Deise Vu

Just to clarify something OP said in the opening post. If it is not an emergency you make an appointment with you GP under the NHS and then he sees you for free. Flu, viruses, a funny lump under your armpit is not an emergency. I have heard if you ring your GP on a Wednesday you would be lucky to see him by the following Tuesday by which time your virus is probably long gone and you spent a week suffering or worrying.

Sometimes paying for a GP who will see you in an hour or two is not too bad. It certainly isn't the part of the health system that I would have most complaint about.

thebeerbaron

questionmark? wrote: »

I ain't defending the mess that is the HSE but to say the NHS is free is utter nonsense.

Once you earn over £155 per week you pay 12 pence out of every pound you earn for national insurance that goes towards funding the 'free' NHS and the benefits system. You pay wheter you use it or not. Would people in Ireland be happy to pay extra tax for the doctor out of their wages. Ya right.
The NHS is also in disarray in many of the Trusts that run each district just not at the same level of ****eness as the HSE.

We dont need new taxes, we currently spend 2nd highest in OECD!!!!!

suicide_circus

We don't pay enough tax basically.

And the "Ara sure its grand!" attitude means that very few things get done properly.

thebeerbaron

suicide_circus wrote: »

We don't pay enough tax basically.

And the "Ara sure its grand!" attitude means that very few things get done properly.

Weather we pay enough is a matter for debate.
But in terms of health spending Ireland spends the 2nd most in the OECD.
This means that we have the money for a better service but how it is used is the problem.
Anyone who says we need to raise taxes is wrong.

questionmark?

thebeerbaron wrote: »

We dont need new taxes, we currently spend 2nd highest in OECD!!!!!

The whole point was that the NHS is not free like the OP suggested.

Eugene Norman

suicide_circus wrote: »

We don't pay enough tax basically.

And the "Ara sure its grand!" attitude means that very few things get done properly.

god the not enough tax argument will never die..

personally i believe that fully state run health services tend to be cheaper if properly run...

screamer

Ah maybe because last time I checked, we're pretty broke as a country without adding the cost of payment free healthcare onto our backs. Besides, look at the under 6 free GP scheme, clinics chockers with kids who are being dragged to the doctor for everything and anything because it's free of charge. Ridiculous. (also in at my local GPs the ones with medical cards are always there, different story if they had to cough up 60 euro every time). That sort of use it and abuse it behaviour would only make the costs sky rocket and the services even more diabolical than they are already.

L1011

The Church sat on all attempts to introduce a proper system, blaming "socialism" but really fearing loss of control of maternity services, children's homes, laundries etc. By the time their influence wained it was too entrenched

jam_mac_jam

I don't think we should have free GP care, its too expensive and why shouldn't people who afford it pay for it. There are much bigger issues in the health care system such as waiting lists and granniess on trolleys. A lot of people have medical cards already so they have free visits. I would rather pay the 60 quid rather then have to wait a week to see a doctor.

K-9

screamer wrote: »

Ah maybe because last time I checked, we're pretty broke as a country without adding the cost of payment free healthcare onto our backs. Besides, look at the under 6 free GP scheme, clinics chockers with kids who are being dragged to the doctor for everything and anything because it's free of charge. Ridiculous. (also in at my local GPs the ones with medical cards are always there, different story if they had to cough up 60 euro every time). That sort of use it and abuse it behaviour would only make the costs sky rocket and the services even more diabolical than they are already.

Halving to pay €60 to see a doctor isn't a good thing either!

NIMAN

The NHS is in crisis. Its not as great as people think it is.

thebeerbaron

K-9 wrote: »

PRSI is very low.

On minimum wage here you pay zero PRSI, in England about £15 a week.

We do pay USC which seems to go into a black hole, not the National Insurance system anyway.

USC should be made a PRSI payment, forget about cutting it.

why increase PRSI or make any changes to USC when we are 2nd highest in funding for the health service in the OECD?
You are missing the point entirely. If we keep discussing taxes we will not discuss why the money we already pay is not delivering a better service.

There is no funding problem, there is no taxes changes needed. It is management and staff reform that is needed.

K-9

thebeerbaron wrote: »

why increase PRSI or make any changes to USC when we are 2nd highest in funding for the health service in the OECD?
You are missing the point entirely. If we keep discussing taxes we will not discuss why the money we already pay is not delivering a better service.

There is no funding problem, there is no taxes changes needed. It is management and staff reform that is needed.

PRSI doesn't just fund Health, it funds SW including pensions as well.

20% of our taxes now service debt, something we didn't have to do in 06/07.

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

Take the Mother and Child Scheme in 1950, the Catholic Church opposed free maternity care for women, FG suported them.

In fact, it was the doctors in the form of the Irish Medical Association who first opposed the Mother and Child Scheme (starting with its precursor, the Fianna Fáil-introduced Health Bill of 1947), claiming they were opposed to the "socialisation of medicine". As always it was the financial interest of a powerful group which called the shots; the "moral" element was the dressing. It was they who lobbied the RCC and Fine Gael ministers to support them, which they wholeheartedly did.

Nowadays, this self-serving action of the medical profession is forgotten and the fashion is for all blame to be heaped on the RCC.

K-9

Fair point, still a powerful lobby group these days.

George Michael

the price of prescription is really just astronomical

ectoraige

Poor systems management. Here's just one example. Basically a situation where elective surgeries are being cancelled because the ED is full, in order to free up beds for emergency cases. However, the beds on the orthopaedic recovery ward can't be used to do infection risks, so the beds lie empty. Meanwhile, the patients who were due for surgery are told not to come in, and put back on the waiting list. The staff employed to work that day have no work to do, but get paid anyway. They can't be transferred to work in other parts of the hospital on that day due to the nature of their contracts. Money being spent, with zero productivity.

That's just one example, but it's systematic waste due to poor management.

thattequilagirl

12Phase wrote: »

35.5 million of funds literally flushed down the toilet due to inexplicable bickering yet there has been nobody held to account for it.

Someone actually took 35.5 million and flushed it down a loo?

Amfyoyo

With the various entrenched 'vested interests' in what passes fora Health System, there will be no change,unfortunately.

The likes of KPMG will be commissioned to write a 'root & branch report' into the Health disService, which will cost millions, take an age and suggest the equivalent of buy a new pair of curtains,move some of the furniture from room to room ...and fit an outside light........when what needs to happen is to demolish the house & start from scratch!!

Year on year, firing money into the black hole that is the Health disService to provide an ever worsening 'service' to an increasingly aging population is quite frankly a waste of money...why aren't the same 'procedures' in place for ALL Civil Servants, especially Politicians, as exist in the real world? U mess up,U get sacked....NOT paid regardless of how well U perform??

The key to the whole 'problem' can perhaps best be demonstrated by Dame Edna....a Country with a population 1% that of the USA pays our Teeshok more than the President of the USA is paid....not to mention the €1.2 million in expenses he's managed to clock up in the past 5 years.

We simply CANNOT afford to keep squandering money at the rate we have been with zero accountability and increasingly desperate attempts to raise more money to throw down the black hole, can we?An ever increasing number of the public are refusing to pay and 'organizing' into ,rather worryingly', a more militant force which could be 'hijacked' by elements pretending to care, yet with their own agenda....and faced by a Government/Opposition who are increasingly out of kilter & have no empathy for what many ordinary have to go through ona daily basis to provide for their families...including health care.

Many don't have a medical card and the sheer amount of medication bought on line & on trips abroad is staggering...as is the realization that we're paying through the nose for an increasingly bad & utterly disorganized 'Health Service'

Finally, an actual figure....16 paracetamol cost 19 pence Sterling in the North of Ireland, that about €0.24...and they're making a profit on that....versus €2.49 for TWELVE down here. Why? It can't ALL be down to USC, tax, rent, wages,so WHY is it tolerated?

Tubbs

Anita Blow

It may not be entirely free, but it is very highly subsidised. A hip replacement costs the HSE ~12,000 euro but the patient usually pays absolutely nothing.

The 100 euro charge for A&E is in place to stop abuse of the system- people coming in with trivial complaints before the charge was brought in and it was cheaper than attending a cheaper. The fee is generally waived if you've to be admitted or if you've you've sustained a fracture and the HSE is legally obliged to waive any hospital charge if you cannot afford it. I'm not sure where the 245 claim for a fracture came from

Beefy78

Biggest thing I miss about home is the NHS.

I fell over a few weeks back and have bruised a rib. I know what I've done but it still hurts a few weeks later and I should get it checked out but like bollocks am I going to go to A&E over here, pay a hundred quid for the privilege of sitting around for 12 hours for something that won't kill me and to then spend another hundred quid for an X Ray. I'll just get on with it.

Regardless of anyone's circumstances, age or wealth they should be entitled to healthcare that is free at the point of use and I'd happily pay more out of my taxes so that the less fortunate in society don't have to weigh up getting healthcare over other bills that they have to pay.

Beefy78

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Like bollocks they are.

My one experience of Irish public healthcare was 12 hours in A&E at St.Vincents before someone finally saw me and decided I was so ill I needed surgery the next morning... But of course there were no beds so I was dumped in a corridor on a temporary bed with dozens of sick and dying people either side of me.

30+ years of using the NHS never prepared me for one night in Irish Heath"care"

BrokenArrows

BrokenArrows wrote: »

When i say Free i mean you dont pay per visit, it comes out of taxes.

Ive been living in London for the past 6 years and I have to say having "free" healthcare is great. If there is something wrong with you, then you call the GP and arrange a visit. Might be a few days or more wait to get an appointment if its not an emergency. You get checked out. No charge at all. Need surgery then no charge at all.
Broken bones, no charge.
Medicine is cheap. A week of antibiotics cost me 7 Pound (€10)

The UK's budget to offer this free service is 96 Billion Pounds for a population that 14 times the size of ireland.

Irelands budget to offer this non free service is 10 Billion Pounds (13Billion Euro).

You pay €60 euro to see a doctor who does nothing but writes a prescription, and you pay a bunch more for the medicine. €100 euro if you need to go to the emergency room and around €275 if you break a bone.

So how can ireland not have a free service when they are paying significantly more per person to run the hospital system. If you were to scale down the UK budget then it should be 6.8 billion pounds (8.7 Billion Euro).

So irelands paying 33% more to run the non free health system than the UK spends to run a free system. Granted that their are economies of scale to take into consideration but FFS!

And then to top it all off i worked out how much more i would pay in tax in ireland and if i take my salary here and convert it to Euro then i would pay 8% more tax in Ireland.

And the Irish government wonders why people dont want to move "home"!!!

** And when i say TAX i mean all mandatory deductions from my pay packet.

Some don't even want to pay for the water THEY use, so I very much doubt they'd be too willing to pay the extra taxes needed for free healthcare for all. Some are peed off that kids under 6 and OAPs get free doctor visits.

FTA69

Beefy78 wrote: »

Patww79 wrote: »

I'd have it the way it is over having something like the NHS, the service and wait lists are terrible.

Like bollocks they are.

My one experience of Irish public healthcare was 12 hours in A&E at St.Vincents before someone finally saw me and decided I was so ill I needed surgery the next morning... But of course there were no beds so I was dumped in a corridor on a temporary bed with dozens of sick and dying people either side of me.

30+ years of using the NHS never prepared me for one night in Irish Heath"care"

Fact, anyone suggesting the NHS is as bad as the HSE is spouting sh*te make no mistake - and the gas thing is the NHS actually costs less per capita than the absolute sh*t-shambles we have in Ireland. I tore my rotator cuff three years ago training and got a doctor's appointment within two days, a scan within two weeks, cheap drugs and a course of physio with little or no money changing hands. If I'd to go the same route in Ireland I'd be a fortune out of pocket and probably worse off. Ireland's health care system is a joke.

MadDog76

NIMAN wrote: »

The NHS is in crisis. Its not as great as people think it is.

And yet it's still better than what we have here ........... if the NHS is in crisis then the HSE is in total #*@*##~@!!!

angel eyes 2012

MadDog76 wrote: »

And yet it's still better than what we have here ........... if the NHS is in crisis then the HSE is in total #*@*##~@!!!

I'd second that, as someone that has to pay in excess of €1,700 a year for life saving medication. I'd take the NHS in a heartbeat. In England the same meds would cost me £116 roughly €200 a year.

namloc1980

Living in Ireland with a chronic lifelong illness is a major financial burden. €144 per month for prescription medicines, €60 a time to visit doctor (regular visits), €100+ to visit a consultant (4-5 times a year). Being over the threshold for a medical card (but far from being well off), the burden of being ill is compounded by financial stresses of the cost of healthcare in Ireland.