Five dead in Buncrana accident

osarusan

Jesus Christ.

I look at my own two kids and picture the utter terror that they would have felt, and I would have felt for them also.

May the mother somehow find the strength to continue.

Dolbert

snubbleste wrote: »

Why aren't all Irish flags at half-mast today?
Are five Irish dead people in Berkeley less important than five Irish dead people in Buncrana?

Imagine how miserable you'd have to be to use something like this for point-scoring.

purplecow1977

Heartbreaking. Truly heartbreaking. Always delighted to welcome all my class back safely after any sort of holidays as I know too well that often there is a classroom somewhere in the country without that luxury.

Mr. CooL ICE

snubbleste wrote: »

Why aren't all Irish flags at half-mast today?
Are five Irish dead people in Berkeley less important than five Irish dead people in Buncrana?

Mod: Don't post in this thread again.

BPKS

lakesider wrote: »

Correct, as soon as I heard there was an incident of a vehicle in the water my first assumption was that another car had slid in from the slipway, its happened before...I live close by so I know its a known problem..

Prayers are with the deceased and the poor girl coming home:(

Looking at google maps there is a gate to the slip way. I know hindsight is 20/20 and all that but would the gate not have been closed when the slipway wasn't being used by the ferry or being launching boats etc.

Stomach churning stuff.

seamus

MadJack2016 wrote: »

Well since we live in a maritime country

Yeah, we don't really though. The vast majority of people don't spend any time near the water except in a pair of togs or hiking boots. Incidents of vehicles going into the water accidentally are incredibly rare, even if you did teach people what to do, whether they would recall it 30 years later in a blind panic is another matter entirely.

Having a hammer in the car is of course useful, but again whether someone would remember they have it, is another question. Glove compartments are usually a mess of crap at the best of times. Maybe they should come as standard and be attached at the side of the driver's wheelwell.

But, again having it there and knowing when and how to use it are two different thing.

I would expect sales of these will skyrocket this week.

EazyD

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, we don't really though. The vast majority of people don't spend any time near the water except in a pair of togs or hiking boots. Incidents of vehicles going into the water accidentally are incredibly rare, even if you did teach people what to do, whether they would recall it 30 years later in a blind panic is another matter entirely.

Having a hammer in the car is of course useful, but again whether someone would remember they have it, is another question. Glove compartments are usually a mess of crap at the best of times. Maybe they should come as standard and be attached at the side of the driver's wheelwell.

But, again having it there and knowing when and how to use it are two different thing.

I would expect sales of these will skyrocket this week.

If you have a look on Amazon, there are key chains that are designed for this purpose also.

crusier

R.I.P

MadJack2016

What killed these people is they and the witnesses panicked.
In an emergency situation you have to stay cool and calm or you will make a mistake and you WILL kill yourself and kill others around you because panic is contagious.
For instance in fire situations people run with the rest of the panicked crowd toward a distant main exit instead of being aware of a nearby fire exit which will get them out faster and more safely which is the difference between life and death.
Vehicle immersions thankfully happen rarely but they DO happen in maritime countries with lots of rivers and regular flooding just like Ireland more regularly.
People should be taught what to do in such a situation.
In an infamous plane crash a pilot managed to bring down a plane on water where it broke into pieces. More people would have lived if they hadn't inflated their life jackets. As a result they were trapped in the air pocket which filled up with water while people who didn't inflate their life jackets and swam out of the wreck through holes in the fuselage reached the surface and survived.
The secret is to be situation-ally aware at all times especially when near water or in a vehicle.

MadJack2016

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, we don't really though. The vast majority of people don't spend any time near the water except in a pair of togs or hiking boots. Incidents of vehicles going into the water accidentally are incredibly rare, even if you did teach people what to do, whether they would recall it 30 years later in a blind panic is another matter entirely.

Having a hammer in the car is of course useful, but again whether someone would remember they have it, is another question. Glove compartments are usually a mess of crap at the best of times. Maybe they should come as standard and be attached at the side of the driver's wheelwell.

But, again having it there and knowing when and how to use it are two different thing.

I would expect sales of these will skyrocket this week.

In a country like Ireland surrounded by water 1) Everyone should learn how to swim 2) We should be aware of water safety 3) As road and vehicle users we should know how to escape in case of a vehicle going into the water.

This tragedy will be in vain unless it wakes people up.

You can't take chances near water. End of.

purplecow1977

MadJack2016 wrote: »

What killed these people is they and the witnesses panicked.
In an emergency situation you have to stay cool and calm or you will make a mistake and you WILL kill yourself and kill others around you because panic is contagious.
For instance in fire situations people run with the rest of the panicked crowd toward a distant main exit instead of being aware of a nearby fire exit which will get them out faster and more safely which is the difference between life and death.
Vehicle immersions thankfully happen rarely but they DO happen in maritime countries with lots of rivers and regular flooding just like Ireland more regularly.
People should be taught what to do in such a situation.
In an infamous plane crash a pilot managed to bring down a plane on water where it broke into pieces. More people would have lived if they hadn't inflated their life jackets. As a result they were trapped in the air pocket which filled up with water while people who didn't inflate their life jackets and swam out of the wreck through holes in the fuselage reached the surface and survived.
The secret is to be situation-ally aware at all times especially when near water or in a vehicle.

Hindsight is great. I'm not sure calm relaxed thinking comes into play when people are in a life-threatening emergency. Some people are more logical than others. I'd be a disaster in an emergency. Even attending First Aid courses at work frightens me as I don't believe I'd remember what to do/not to do in an emergency.

murpho999

MadJack2016 wrote: »

This tragedy was survivable if the occupants had known what do in such a situation.
I watched Bear Grylls Worse Case Scenario and an old TV sketch where comedian Dave Allen and guest were dropped into a water tank inside a car. There are two schools of thought it would seem. In the first case roll the windows down or break the glass and allow the car to fill up and then get out through the windows or in the second case sit calmly in the car and let it fill up and then open the car doors when you are underwater after taking a gulp of air. Counter intuitively you should NOT unbuckle your seat belt because you will float to the top as the car is filling up. If you wait until the car is full submerged and then unbuckle your belt you will more easily get out. Once you are out you can get to the surface by kicking. When kids are in the car the bigger kids go first ahead of the smaller kids.

You say roll the windows down but how does that work with electric windows? Wouldn't the car electrics be fried when it hits the water?

MadJack2016

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Hindsight is great. I'm not sure calm relaxed thinking comes into play when people are in a life-threatening emergency. Some people are more logical than others. I'd be a disaster in an emergency. Even attending First Aid courses at work frightens me as I don't believe I'd remember what to do/not to do in an emergency.

Hindsight IS great because future tragedies might be prevented if people learn from this appalling accident.

Those poor people could and should have survived this if they had known what to do.

Hopefully there will be saturation coverage and if it gets people to think about what they would do in such a situation and how they could react to it it might save lives in future.

MadJack2016

murpho999 wrote: »

You say roll the windows down but how does that work with electric windows? Wouldn't the car electrics be fried when it hits the water?

The electrical system will still work because it is insulated. Similarly if the headlights are on they will stay on when a car sinks in water. If the windows stop working they can be broken of course by kicking them out.

B0jangles

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I'm in tears reading about it

Same here, it's unbelievably tragic

armaghlad

It's all well and good saying in hindsight what you should do if you're trapped in a submerging vehicle. Having 6 people including children and a baby trying to escape a vehicle would be virtually impossible. The gate should have been closed. There is absolutely no need to allow cars down the slipway. It looks inoccuous enough in that it doesn't appear that steep so obviously people would drive down it. Rather than just teach people how to escape from their vehicle in such an episode prevention would be a better approach.

murpho999

MadJack2016 wrote: »

The electrical system will still work because it is insulated. Similarly if the headlights are on they will stay on when a car sinks in water. If the windows stop working they can be broken of course by kicking them out.

Insulated against rain but against full submergence?

Also kicking windows out underwater is lot harder than you say.

What I don't get is that the car went in with at least one window open as they passed the baby out through it, so I can't understand why at least one could not get out.

Thoie

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Hindsight is great. I'm not sure calm relaxed thinking comes into play when people are in a life-threatening emergency. Some people are more logical than others. I'd be a disaster in an emergency. Even attending First Aid courses at work frightens me as I don't believe I'd remember what to do/not to do in an emergency.

You should read "The Unthinkable". The idea behind things like first aid courses is not to turn you into a doctor or paramedic, but to instill certain things into you so that if they do happen, you revert to training without having to go through panic mode. For example, one of the main things that's drilled into you is if you're the only person around when there's a problem, the first thing you do is phone an ambulance/fire brigade whatever before you start trying to help. If there's 2 or more people with you, you assign someone to make that phone call, and report back to you when they have.

It's not like on TV where the phone is answered and they yell "Send an ambulance to 123 Main St" and hang up. It is more important to stay on the phone and answer all the questions the call takers asks you and follow their instructions.

Knowing when and how to perform CPR is great. Knowing that once you start you can't stop is vitally important - you have to make that phone call first.

I've just had this sudden image of the panic in that car.

And I've managed to thoroughly depress myself.

K-9

MadJack2016 wrote: »

Hindsight IS great because future tragedies might be prevented if people learn from this appalling accident.

Those poor people could and should have survived this if they had known what to do.

Hopefully there will be saturation coverage and if it gets people to think about what they would do in such a situation and how they could react to it it might save lives in future.

That's true, read a great piece recently about a pilot recovering from his shock when engines started failing, inspiring stuff. Even him, who rehearsed potential situations with his team before every flight, froze for a good while. A lot of it is counter intuitive, even the on board computers were giving stupid instructions!

I'd be doing well to keep myself calm, with 2 young kids and a teenager I'd hope I could be a hero, the odds are I wouldn't be though.

murpho999

K-9 wrote: »

That's true, read a great piece recently about a pilot recovering from his shock when engines started failing, inspiring stuff. Even him, who rehearsed potential situations with his team before every flight, froze for a good while. A lot of it is counter intuitive, even the on board computers were giving stupid instructions!

I'd be doing well to keep myself calm, with 2 young kids and a teenager I'd hope I could be a hero, the odds are I wouldn't be though.

I would think the opposite would be more true, as survival instinct should kick in.

LDN_Irish

Completely unrelated to what was done for any other incident so please take this in the spirit it's meant: I think flags at half mast is appropriate for this tragedy. I don't often cry at news stories but this really got me this morning.

purplecow1977

Thoie wrote: »

You should read "The Unthinkable". The idea behind things like first aid courses is not to turn you into a doctor or paramedic, but to instill certain things into you so that if they do happen, you revert to training without having to go through panic mode. For example, one of the main things that's drilled into you is if you're the only person around when there's a problem, the first thing you do is phone an ambulance/fire brigade whatever before you start trying to help. If there's 2 or more people with you, you assign someone to make that phone call, and report back to you when they have.

It's not like on TV where the phone is answered and they yell "Send an ambulance to 123 Main St" and hang up. It is more important to stay on the phone and answer all the questions the call takers asks you and follow their instructions.

Knowing when and how to perform CPR is great. Knowing that once you start you can't stop is vitally important - you have to make that phone call first.

I understand that. It doesn't mean I'd remember any quicker about what to do. I believe that constant reinforcement may help it remembering easier, but as I said already some people are just more logically minded and cope better in emergencies.

armaghlad

murpho999 wrote: »

Insulated against rain but against full submergence?

Also kicking windows out underwater is lot harder than you say.

What I don't get is that the car went in with at least one window open as they passed the baby out through it, so I can't understand why at least one could not get out.

There are reports (unconfirmed) that some managed to escape the car; but unfortunately couldn't make it to the surface.

MadJack2016

murpho999 wrote: »

Insulated against rain but against full submergence?

Also kicking windows out underwater is lot harder than you say.

I don't get is that the car went in with at least one window open as they passed the baby out through it, so I can't understand why at least one could not get out .

If you panic you are dead and that's what seems to me happened here. Something has to be said for keeping cool and calm in situations and also thinking about worse case scenarios and training for them. Learning to swim and being comfortable in water is No. 1 since we live in a maritime country also with lots of lakes and rivers. I've often thought about what I would do in a fire or sinking or how I could save a life if someone is collapsed so I have educated myself about it. I've known people who have died in tragedies in the past and I hope this tragedy gets people thinking about dangers around them and avoiding them and educating themselves about what to do if they are in such situations.

retro:electro

RIP to those who lost their lives. Utterly heartbreaking.

Gael23

Hard to make sense of. Like something you only image seeing in a Horror Movie

eviltwin

MadJack2016 wrote: »

If you panic you are dead and that's what seems to me happened here. Something has to be said for keeping cool and calm in situations and also thinking about worse case scenarios and training for them. Learning to swim and being comfortable in water is No. 1 since we live in a maritime country also with lots of lakes and rivers. I've often thought about what I would do in a fire or sinking or how I could save a life if someone is collapsed so I have educated myself about it. I've known people who have died in tragedies in the past and I hope this tragedy gets people thinking about dangers around them and avoiding them and educating themselves about what to do if they are in such situations.

Easy to say that from the comfort of your armchair. IOnce adrenaline kicks in its very hard to relax. I would panic, I wouldn't be able to be calm, combination of the cold, the dark, the terror, the screams of the kids. He was able to save the life of his daughter, time was against them unfortunately.

velo.2010

Sounds horrific. I hope the mother of the baby can find some strength to go on. Its understandable that many people this morning can't listen to the details - too tragic to comprehend.

I heard the Sean O'Rourke interview with the local man. He was quite searching in his questioning of the witness, though the man was probably still in shock and perhaps not clear on some detail. Still, 10 minutes went by before the vehicle went under?

Regarding the doors not opening. I believe that a car has to go under to equalise the pressure inside and outside for the doors to open with some force. It would have been impossible to open them even if the water only came halfway up.

Sad, sad event.

Wibbs

MadJack2016 wrote: »

The electrical system will still work because it is insulated.

If the ignition is on. If not, for most cars, no windows.

If the windows stop working they can be broken of course by kicking them out.

Yeah right. Jesus when this sorta tragedy happens the amount of Walter Mitty types that spring forth… OK try kicking out the window in a car on land in a scrapyard or wherever. Strap yourself in and go. Time yourself from when you unbuckle your seatbelt to when you finally kick the glass out. If you manage to kick the glass out. Now imagine how Rambo you are in a car full with people screaming, rapidly sinking and with water pressure supporting the glass. You wouldn't have a snowball in hell's chance and that is a fact.

Years back I was in a car where the driver decided that she could drive through a flooded road. Not the sparkiest of ideas. Anyway the road dipped and the water got deeper and the car conked out, as they will. Water was flooding into the footwells so I thought sod this, I'll get out and walk. The water level was maybe a foot up the doors, if that and by god it took some strength to slowly open that door. No way was I forcing it quickly. Unless someone has direct experience of the effects of water pressure they will be surprised at the power of it.

By the by, if you have any old spark plugs hanging around you don't need a glass hammer, the ceramic end of the plug will smash a window

murpho999 wrote: »

I would think the opposite would be more true, as survival instinct should kick in.

It does M, but it has been shown and I've seen this for myself, when panic kicks in the majority of people either freeze on the spot(play dead) or follow the herd trying to escape the danger(run away). Very few actually do things differently. And that's probably overall a good thing, otherwise we would have evolved a different panic mode. If you think about it, the guy or gal that stays calm in the one place, or worse confronts the danger may have been the guy or gal in the past most likely to have been eaten by large hairy things with teeth.