National Hurling League 2016

Brian017 · 20-03-2016 4:57pm

Allianz Hurling League Division 1 quarter-finals
Kilkenny v Offaly
Waterford v Wexford
Dublin v Limerick
Tipperary v Clare (Promoted to 1A)

Relegation Playoff
Galway v Cork

Speak Now · 20-03-2016 5:00pm

Brian017 wrote: »

It's hard luck on Kerry, for a few minutes they were looking at a QF with Kilkenny; now they're in a relegation playoff.

Would have been Waterford I think.

Hammer Archer · 20-03-2016 5:03pm

Yeah I think Kerry would've finished third had Wexford not won.

Brian017 · 20-03-2016 5:03pm

Speak Now wrote: »

Would have been Waterford I think.

Kerry would've finished 3rd? Sorry about that, Maths was never my strong suit!

Speak Now · 20-03-2016 5:06pm

Brian017 wrote: »

Kerry would've finished 3rd? Sorry about that, Maths was never my strong suit!

Would have had Offaly on the head to head but it went to pts difference when there were 3.

Wouldn't write off Laois in their relegation play off either. Would be tough on them to go down. Kerry will be at home though.

dastardly00 · 20-03-2016 5:09pm

Brian017 wrote: »

Allianz Hurling League Division 1 quarter-finals
Kilkenny v Wexford
Waterford v Offaly
Dublin v Limerick
Tipperary v Clare (Promoted to 1A)

Relegation Playoff
Galway v Cork

I think KK play Offaly and Waterford play Wexford?

Brian017 · 20-03-2016 5:10pm

dastardly00 wrote: »

I think KK play Offaly and Waterford play Wexford?

Yeah they do, edited my post

Hammer Archer · 20-03-2016 5:19pm

In the other divisions (as far as I can see):

2A Final:
Westmeath v Carlow

2A Relegation:
Kildare v Derry

2B Final:
Down v Armagh

2B Relegation:
Wicklow v Donegal

3A Final:
Roscommon v Monaghan

3A Relegation:
Tyrone v Warwickshire

3B Final:
Longford v Fermanagh

Mal-Adjusted · 20-03-2016 5:29pm

I probably said something similar last year but there's something wrong with a system where Laois lose every game but can grind out a win and stay up at the expense of Kerry, who won two games. The exact same goes for Cork who are winless, against galway (who only lost two games).

dastardly00 · 20-03-2016 5:57pm

A few nice goals in the Tipp-Cork match.

SteakandKidney · 20-03-2016 6:09pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote:

I probably said something similar last year but there's something wrong with a system where Laois lose every game but can grind out a win and stay up at the expense of Kerry, who won two games. The exact same goes for Cork who are winless, against galway (who only lost two games).

What's even worse is that the winners of Westmeath and Carlow have to beat the losers of said laois and kerry game to get promoted to 1. , pardon the bun but that's not promoting hurler in the so Called weaker counties

Realt Dearg Sec · 20-03-2016 6:28pm

SteakandKidney wrote: »

What's even worse is that the winners of Westmeath and Carlow have to beat the losers of said laois and kerry game to get promoted to 1. , pardon the bun but that's not promoting hurler in the so Called weaker counties

I'd go a step further and day that is specifically designed to keep the weaker counties out. Makes no sense otherwise to have that rule for one division but not another.

Bonniedog · 20-03-2016 7:17pm

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I'd go a step further and day that is specifically designed to keep the weaker counties out. Makes no sense otherwise to have that rule for one division but not another.

Kerry were rightly complaining about that last year when they had to win 2a and then beat Antrim in another playoff. A league should be based on straight forward relegation of the bottom team, especially teams that lost all their games as Cork and Laois have.

Otherwise, the structure is the best for a long time as it narrows the gap between the two top divisions and gives top four teams in 1B at least one extra match. Even Limerick have stopped giving out!

Kerrydude1981 · 21-03-2016 2:25pm

All the play offs should be scrapped,Cork should be relegated and so should Laois,the winners of 2A should be promoted automatically to 1B

Two years ago Offaly had to play us in a play off even though they won a game in 1B but then Antrim who finished at the bottom of 1B with no points beat Offaly in the relegation play off

Now we find ourselves in the same position.

Mehapoy · 21-03-2016 3:34pm

Bonniedog wrote: »

Kerry were rightly complaining about that last year when they had to win 2a and then beat Antrim in another playoff. A league should be based on straight forward relegation of the bottom team, especially teams that lost all their games as Cork and Laois have.

Otherwise, the structure is the best for a long time as it narrows the gap between the two top divisions and gives top four teams in 1B at least one extra match. Even Limerick have stopped giving out!

Its financially crippling a lot of counties though, for instance I'd say limerick would barely have got 10k to all their home matches this year, in a stadium rebuilt a few years ago to accommodate 40k...they are away in the quarter finals so may have no more home games for the year in the middle of March, last year they spent 1 million on inter county teams, how is that remotely sustainable?
Its not just a problem with the league but the structure as a whole, some people wont be happy until every inter county game is a championship play off.

mountgomery burns · 21-03-2016 9:18pm

Limerick financially crippled...Ive heard it all now.

redlead · 21-03-2016 10:01pm

Mehapoy wrote: »

Its financially crippling a lot of counties though, for instance I'd say limerick would barely have got 10k to all their home matches this year, in a stadium rebuilt a few years ago to accommodate 40k...they are away in the quarter finals so may have no more home games for the year in the middle of March, last year they spent 1 million on inter county teams, how is that remotely sustainable?
Its not just a problem with the league but the structure as a whole, some people wont be happy until every inter county game is a championship play off.

Limerick have had six chances to get to 1a and failed each time. This proves that they don't deserve to be in 1a any more than the other 1b teams. If they want to improve their gates they are going to have to improve their hurling.

Mehapoy · 21-03-2016 11:07pm

redlead wrote: »

Limerick have had six chances to get to 1a and failed each time. This proves that they don't deserve to be in 1a any more than the other 1b teams. If they want to improve their gates they are going to have to improve their hurling.

Thats a bit of a short sighted view, just because everybody gets a slim chance to get up doesn't mean its the right format, even in 1a you could only have two home games for the year..Apart from that only 7 teams have had top level experience in the last 6-7 years, how does that benefit Limerick, Wexford or Offaly, put it this way would Dublin have been able to progress as they did from 2008 onwards if they had the same slim chance of going up? With an 8 team top tier they had a chance to consolidate and cement their place

Realt Dearg Sec · 21-03-2016 11:36pm

Only in the gaa do people think that the competition should be structured according to how it might benefit somebody in particular. The point of a league is to rank teams, and generate competitiveness, and hopefully a free good matches while they're at it. The old format didn't do that, the current one does. For most teams in the 8 team format, there was absolutely nothing at stake. It bored the bollocks off everyone, and nobody ultimately gave a ****e how they performed in it.

redlead · 21-03-2016 11:46pm

Mehapoy wrote: »

Thats a bit of a short sighted view, just because everybody gets a slim chance to get up doesn't mean its the right format, even in 1a you could only have two home games for the year..Apart from that only 7 teams have had top level experience in the last 6-7 years, how does that benefit Limerick, Wexford or Offaly, put it this way would Dublin have been able to progress as they did from 2008 onwards if they had the same slim chance of going up? With an 8 team top tier they had a chance to consolidate and cement their place

The whole purpose of leagues is so that teams play other teams at their own level. If a team consistently fails to get promoted then they are in the right league for them. It was handy being able to try young lads out against the likes of Offaly and Laois knowing that you'd always stay up but the savage competition in 1a stands to everyone in it more than any previous format. Letting weaker teams back in just dilutes the overall quality of the national league in general. 1b always has a few strong teams in it too as things stand. It's up to other teams who think they should be in 1a to earn their place.

The real problem with the league is how hard it is get promoted into 1b. The whole set up is to protect the 1b teams which isn't fair on everyone else.

PTH2009 · 22-03-2016 1:13am

division 1- 16 teams
Kilkenny, Clare, Waterford, Dublin, Tipperary, Galway, Cork, Limerick, Wexford,Offaly,Kerry, Laois, Westmeath, Carlow, Antrim, London.

random draw 2 grps of 8 teams each team plays each other once (4 home and 4 away matches).

Top 4 teams qualify for Division 1 quarter Finals- coin toss for home advantage

Top Grp A vs 4th Grp B
2nd Grp A vs 3rd Grp B
3rd Grp A vs 2nd Grp B
4th Grp A vs 1st Grp B

Semis and Final like normal after that

Teams that finish 5th and 6th in each group will play in the Division 1 shield.
5th Grp A vs 6th Grp B
6th Grp A vs 5th Grp B

winners play each other in the shield final

Teams that finish 7th and 8th in each group will playoff in the relagation zone.
Semis
7th Grp A vs 8th Grp B
8th Grp B vs 7th Grp A
winner of each semi final survives and the losers will playoff in the relagation final.

Relagation final- the loser will be relagated to division 2. The winner of the match will playoff with the loser of the Division 2 final with the winner of that match staying/being promoted to division 1.

id be looking to introduce 2 rounds of mid week games (wednesday night under lights)

Division 2- 8 teams
Kildare, Derry, Down, Armagh, Mayo, Meath, Wiclow, Donegal

1 grp each plays each other once (4 home/4 away games).

Top 4 play in the winners section
1st vs 4th
2nd vs 3rd
Winners of both games will playoff in the final with the winner gaining promotion to division 1, the loser will play the winners of the division 1 relagation playoff to gain promotion to division 1.

bottom 4 play in the relagation section
5th vs 8th
6th vs 7th

losers of each match playoff in the relagation final.

Relagation final- the loser will be relagated to division 3. The winner of the match will playoff with the loser of the Division 3 final with the winner of that match staying/being promoted to division 2.

Division 3- 10 teams
Roscommon, Monaghan, Louth,Fingal,Tyrone,Warwickshire, Fermanagh, Longford, Leitrim, Sligo

2 groups of 5.

top 2 in each group play off in the winners section.

2 grp A vs 1st Grp B
1st Grp A vs 2nd Grp B

winners qualify for the final.
Final- winners gain promotion to Division 2, Losers will play winners of the division 2 relagation playoff to gain promotion to division 2.

Mehapoy · 22-03-2016 10:12am

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Only in the gaa do people think that the competition should be structured according to how it might benefit somebody in particular. The point of a league is to rank teams, and generate competitiveness, and hopefully a free good matches while they're at it. The old format didn't do that, the current one does. For most teams in the 8 team format, there was absolutely nothing at stake. It bored the bollocks off everyone, and nobody ultimately gave a ****e how they performed in it.

But the league in gaa is not the main competition, its more of a warm up for the championship, therefore its not beneficial to the championship as a whole to have a stagnant first and second division that's harder to get into than fort Knox (granted 1b to 1a is easier than 2a to 1b). The point of the league should be to give the best possible preparation for ALL teams for the championship not just the 6 in 1a, until they make the league the main competition that should be the point of the format.

blue note · 22-03-2016 10:44am

Mehapoy wrote: »

But the league in gaa is not the main competition, its more of a warm up for the championship, therefore its not beneficial to the championship as a whole to have a stagnant first and second division that's harder to get into than fort Knox (granted 1b to 1a is easier than 2a to 1b). The point of the league should be to give the best possible preparation for ALL teams for the championship not just the 6 in 1a, until they make the league the main competition that should be the point of the format.

I wouldn't agree with that at all. I think the league is a great competition the way it is, in some ways better than the championship. Essentially in 1b you have to not mess up against the weaker teams and win the 1 match that counts each year to get promoted. It's not that hard to get out of.

Bonniedog · 22-03-2016 11:54am

Mehapoy wrote: »

would Dublin have been able to progress as they did from 2008 onwards if they had the same slim chance of going up?

Dublin had the same chance as everyone else in 1B to be promoted!

I also happen to recall that in 2006 when we won the old division two that there were plenty of traditionalists who voted to stop us being promoted. Only reason that was over turned was because it also affected Louth who had won Division Two in football.

Mehapoy · 22-03-2016 12:08pm

Bonniedog wrote: »

Dublin had the same chance as everyone else in 1B to be promoted!

I also happen to recall that in 2006 when we won the old division two that there were plenty of traditionalists who voted to stop us being promoted. Only reason that was over turned was because it also affected Louth who had won Division Two in football.

Point was with an 8 team top division it was easier to get up(it was still 1up 1down I think) and as it wasn't as ultra competitive as a 6 team top flight they had a chance to bed in and consolidate...in a 6 team top flight that is alot harder...

Bonniedog · 22-03-2016 12:17pm

Mehapoy wrote: »

Point was with an 8 team top division it was easier to get up(it was still 1up 1down I think) and as it wasn't as ultra competitive as a 6 team top flight they had a chance to bed in and consolidate...in a 6 team top flight that is alot harder...

Dublin won Leinster and Limerick won Munster a few months after contesting the 1B final in 2013. Cork were relegated that year I think and came within a puck of a ball of winning the big one. Wexford beat Clare in 2014 championship after a year in 1B. Clare are a lot of peoples dark horses for this year.

So you could argue that it is not a massive handicap on teams.

HanaleiJ5N · 22-03-2016 12:43pm

The quarter finals are a nonsense addition, more than half the teams in a group should not qualify for play offs, and 3rd and 4th place in 1B should not be rewarded with quarter final places.

That is literally giving those teams n extra game for the sake of it. It was done so the Div 1 counties would all be guaranteed a 6th game- a privilege not extended to Div 2 or 3 teams. Why should the 9th and 10th best teams be sent out to play the top 2?

There is literally no difference between finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th in 1B. You won't be promoted (even if you go on to win the competition outright) and you'll get a quarter final place.

And in some groups the bottom 2 play off for relegation, in others the bottom automatically goes down. And the promotion relegation exchange between 1B and 2A is ridiculous, that extra play-off is completely unfair.

I'd make the following changes;

Keep 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B as 6 team groups, cut the nonsense and call them what they are; Divisions 1, 2, 3 and 4.

Division 3A and 3B renamed to divisions 5 and 6, and instead of a 6:4 split have 5 teams in each, yes that will mean 3A counties now playing 4 instead of 5 games but it will also mean 3B counties playing 4 instead of just 3.

1st place guarantees promotion, no play off nonsense.
Last place guarantees relegation, no play off nonsense.
Second last in each group plays second in the group below in relegation/promotion play-offs.

Main competition semi finals; 1st, 2nd and 3rd placed division 1 teams joined by 1st placed division 2 team.

The league doesn't need sweeping changes, just a few minor tweaks here and there.

HanaleiJ5N · 22-03-2016 1:07pm

adrian522 · 22-03-2016 1:26pm

Good idea, It does leave Tipp without a game from 20/3 to 22/05. Could be even longer (mid-June possibly) if they had a semi final bye this year.

Ideally I'd like some sort of link between league and championship. I don't have an ideal setup for the league in mind though.

blue note · 22-03-2016 1:49pm

HanaleiJ5N wrote: »

The quarter finals are a nonsense addition, more than half the teams in a group should not qualify for play offs, and 3rd and 4th place in 1B should not be rewarded with quarter final places.

That is literally giving those teams n extra game for the sake of it. It was done so the Div 1 counties would all be guaranteed a 6th game- a privilege not extended to Div 2 or 3 teams. Why should the 9th and 10th best teams be sent out to play the top 2?

There is literally no difference between finishing 2nd, 3rd or 4th in 1B. You won't be promoted (even if you go on to win the competition outright) and you'll get a quarter final place.

And in some groups the bottom 2 play off for relegation, in others the bottom automatically goes down. And the promotion relegation exchange between 1B and 2A is ridiculous, that extra play-off is completely unfair.

I'd make the following changes;

Keep 1A, 1B, 2A, 2B as 6 team groups, cut the nonsense and call them what they are; Divisions 1, 2, 3 and 4.

Division 3A and 3B renamed to divisions 5 and 6, and instead of a 6:4 split have 5 teams in each, yes that will mean 3A counties now playing 4 instead of 5 games but it will also mean 3B counties playing 4 instead of just 3.

1st place guarantees promotion, no play off nonsense.
Last place guarantees relegation, no play off nonsense.
Second last in each group plays second in the group below in relegation/promotion play-offs.

Main competition semi finals; 1st, 2nd and 3rd placed division 1 teams joined by 1st placed division 2 team.

The league doesn't need sweeping changes, just a few minor tweaks here and there.

I much rather it the way it is than the way you're suggesting. On the naming I mainly agree it's stupid. Since the 1B teams go on to play the 1A teams it's not too bad, but it's just a name so I don't really care.

Giving the 1B teams an extra game against 1A teams (the quarter finals) has been a great idea. A major problem with being in a lower division was the lack of games against strong opposition to prepare you for championship. Now, if you're one of the two stronger teams you get at least a game against the other stronger team and a 1A team at the end of it (and more if you're good enough). Also, Limerick have shown that the games against Offaly and Wexford are far from walks in the park as well - they were lucky to beat Wexford last year and lost to Offaly. I think Limerick are better, but not good enough that they'll beat them every time.

The relegation situation from 1B is a disgrace, there should be 1 up 1 down each year.

The fact that 1A is so competitive and teams really have to fight to stay out of the relegation playoff has been brilliant for the quality of games though - both for us spectators and for the teams. If it was increased to an 8 team division again we'd be back to dead rubber games and half the teams just trying out lads for most of the games. Glorified challenge matches almost.

Limerick being stuck in 1B is a problem for them I agree - but it's one they have the tools to solve. Their minor team of a couple of years ago was outstanding, they should be bringing those guys through to get themselves out of the division they currently deserve to be in. And then they can play in 1A when they've earned the right.

National Hurling League 2016

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