Brazilian Jiu Jitsu - General Thread

sonic85

eeloe wrote: »

I was the exact same as you when I started buddy, your stamina will come.

What I found helped was to have one round of rolling and one round of drilling. This really helped me because the drilling round wasn’t 100%, but it kept the heart rate up and let my body adjust to being under pressure while also recovering.

The plus side to this, people don’t drill enough anyway, it’s just learn a technique for 45-60 mins, and then try and kill each other for an hour. Drilling will improve your game so much!

Thanks for the replies lads! What do you mean by drilling - just going easy and running through techniques?

sonic85

Mellor wrote: »

Go slower, and lighter.
while cardio and fitness is a factor, it's almost a certainty that you are going too hard and using too much energy in the first roll.
It's normal to not know what you are doing. But doing it harder

Can you go easier and lighter when rolling though? I seem to get swept too easily and then when I find myself on the bottom I'm pretty much stuck. If the lad I'm rolling with is bigger and stronger and he's going for a kimura or something I have to fight hard just to survive. It's frustrating as hell TBH

rob316

sonic85 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies lads! What do you mean by drilling - just going easy and running through techniques?

Drilling, doing the technique over and over again.
Start with low resistance from your partner then increase to full gradually.

Rolling can be a major shock to the body your using muscles you didn't even know you had. I know if felt physically sick when I first started. Concentrate on your breathing and try use technique over strength. If a bigger dude is getting you in a kimura you need to learn how not to end up in that position.

You will know the guys who use strength primarily they generally have **** technique and movement.

Tazzimus

sonic85 wrote: »

Can you go easier and lighter when rolling though? I seem to get swept too easily and then when I find myself on the bottom I'm pretty much stuck. If the lad I'm rolling with is bigger and stronger and he's going for a kimura or something I have to fight hard just to survive. It's frustrating as hell TBH

Ask can you do a flow roll or go a bit lighter, generally your partner will agree.

The stamina part will come, I still get ****ed after 3 ish rounds, but can keep going, even if it's just defensively for a round while I catch my breath.
Speaking of breath, breathing can be a big issue, especially if you're holding your breath when doing something, I used to do this a lot and still do every so often and it tires you quickly.

If you get stuck on bottom, work your defensive game so you're confident of surviving even when you're tired, then you can start working escapes, counters etc

DrPhilG

Breathing is massive. I had a grading coming up a while back and a heavy session was expected, so I spent a few weeks when rolling putting what I was doing secondary, and focusing completely on breathing properly. Slowing it down, not holding my breath, not getting stuck in mount or knee on belly where you can't get a breath.

Made a huge difference to me. I'm a fat guy with poor stamina but I can last 3 or 4 rolls now without being completely fecked. I might get less effective each roll, lol, but previously I just had to drag/roll off the mat and stop.

In hindsight it's kinda ridiculous that I've been doing BJJ for years without addressing something so basic yet important. Probably because my attendance has been intermittent due to work and injuries so I always just put my lack of stamina down to inactivity. Always knew the importance of breathing but it's only when you really focus on it that you realise how big a difference it makes.

I might still get dominated by higher belts, but now I might survive a 4 minute roll, or only get tapped once whereas before - the same people would submit me 3 or 4 times because I was basically just a carcass.

Chairman Meow

veganrun wrote: »

Yeah it's grand, just a bit of a nuisance wearing this thing. Will see next week when I can get back to training.

I think part of it is that I have only been to a few classes so haven't achieved much in bjj terms other than walking in the door and the love for it is not there yet.

At the same time I don't really want to give up and want to get promoted. Confusing

Dont put too much emphasis on getting promoted. Just focus on getting better every class and learning. I say this because at first i was totally set on getting that promotion too, but i trained BJJ 2 years and never even got a stripe on my white belt so after a while i just stopped caring about ever getting a promotion and focused on just trying to not suck. If i had been training and just chasing that first promotion, i wouldnt even have lasted as long as i did lol. I console myself with the fact that by any metric ive ever read for stripe promotions id made the grade, and that one time, i did a drop in class in my local Judo club and tapped out a couple of the coloured belts in newaza so im happy just knowing that i learned from my training, not that i got a piece of tape on my belt

veganrun

Haha nice one Chairman.

I had a follow up appointment today at the hospital. The Dr told me not to go back to bjj until I'm able to make a fist. I have to go back in 2 weeks if the exercises aren't helping and they will refer me for physio. The splint is off but it's quite stiff and I can't make a closed fist yet. Hopefully over the next 2 weeks it will improve. Although he said it will take time and I can expect some pain for 6 months. I've tried not to move it for the past 3 1/2 weeks ago I guess it's normal for it to be stiff etc.

It was a different Dr today and he said it was chipped so I guess that's not too bad.

I reckon even when I can get more mobility back in it, I will give it a few extra weeks before going back.

Froshtbit

sonic85 wrote: »

Can you go easier and lighter when rolling though? I seem to get swept too easily and then when I find myself on the bottom I'm pretty much stuck. If the lad I'm rolling with is bigger and stronger and he's going for a kimura or something I have to fight hard just to survive. It's frustrating as hell TBH

You're focusing on the wrong problem Last second escapes take the most energy. It's far easier to fight for grips then reverse a sweep. It's far easier to t-rex your arms than explode out of a nearly-locked in Kimura. Focus on defending the beginnings of an attack rather than the end. I'm a skinny guy who had the same problem. It was because I was giving them everything but the finish.

sonic85

Thanks very much for the replies lads I really appreciate it! I'll try respond properly to your replies tomorrow evening.

I'm really enjoying it so far but I feel I'm not progressing very much which is really frustrating and I'm the type of lad who's head starts to drop if I feel I'm not doing as well as I should. I'll probably be asking a few more stupid questions over the next while so hope ye can bear with me! Thanks again

Tazzimus

sonic85 wrote: »

Thanks very much for the replies lads I really appreciate it! I'll try respond properly to your replies tomorrow evening.

I'm really enjoying it so far but I feel I'm not progressing very much which is really frustrating and I'm the type of lad who's head starts to drop if I feel I'm not doing as well as I should. I'll probably be asking a few more stupid questions over the next while so hope ye can bear with me! Thanks again

Quick advice, I'd get used to that feeling, it sticks with you throughout your journey.

You'll make a leap, feel deadly, and then promptly go back to getting murdered.
It's a vicious, strangely addictive cycle

cletus

sonic85 wrote: »

Thanks very much for the replies lads I really appreciate it! I'll try respond properly to your replies tomorrow evening.

I'm really enjoying it so far but I feel I'm not progressing very much which is really frustrating and I'm the type of lad who's head starts to drop if I feel I'm not doing as well as I should. I'll probably be asking a few more stupid questions over the next while so hope ye can bear with me! Thanks again

Very often you wont feel like you are progressing, because everybody around you is also progressing. wait till a new member joins and you find yourself controlling them and hitting submissions.

As the great Renzo said - The secret of this sport is, while you’re the nail, hang in there, let them hit you, until the day you become the hammer, then you smash them back!

darced

Phoebe Full Overlap wrote: »

Damn, how are you all training?.

I didn't pick up significant injuries until my late 37's.. More or less the same injuries but longer recovery in my 40's and now at 52 when I'm injured I train more BJJ than Judo to recover.

Uninjured I split my training 70/30 in favor of Judo over BJJ.. Injured, I drop the Judo.

I'd say years of Judo has taught you how to train properly that and being a big guy will stop plenty of injuries. Most BJJ clubs are full of guys with huge ego's who will defend their belt to the death .

arybvtcw0eolkf

darced wrote: »

I'd say years of Judo has taught you how to train properly that and being a big guy will stop plenty of injuries. Most BJJ clubs are full of guys with huge ego's who will defend their belt to the death .

I'm not sure if being a big guy stops injuries, anything over 90kgs and you stop bouncing when you hit the tatami lol.

You're probably right about the BJJ ego's, I'm always very guarded with young whites and blues in BJJ. I don't mind someone who's enthusiastic but try screw my head off or break one of my limbs and I've a very large toolbox of nastiness to call upon to clip someone's wings

All joking aside injuries suck and it takes a long time, and a few grey hairs before most people realize the importance of taking time off to recover from injury.

Training through injury and illness isn't tough, its thick.

Mellor

Out of curiosity Makikomi, are you ranked in BJJ or was that not something you were ever interested in? I remember you talking about your judo black belt in the past. Obviously doesn't matter either way, just curious.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Mellor wrote: »

Out of curiosity Makikomi, are you ranked in BJJ or was that not something you were ever interested in? I remember you talking about your judo black belt in the past. Obviously doesn't matter either way, just curious.

Nope, not ranked. Never had an interest in giving BJJ the extra times which that would have required.

I've always seen both as opposite sides of the same coin. I've used BJJ really as a supplement to my Judo training.

Besides all that I simply wouldn't have the time to give both 100%.

Who knows what the future holds, I'm getting on bit and I've a few injuries which just aren't healing and have been considering retiring from Judo.

An oldie here, from 2005 and the start of what would become Team Ryano (it was SBG Northside back then).. This bunch would go on to produce three BJJ and three Judo black belts. Andy was already a Judo black at the time and a BJJ blue.



If I do retire my options are to concentrate on more BJJ or wrestling. I've even toyed around with the idea of going back to kickboxing.

No offense meant to anyone here, but of the three BJJ would be my least favored option, only because its too close to Judo.

Thanks for the question, nice to think I've pricked someone's interest :pac:

Mellor

Phoebe Full Overlap wrote: »

Nope, not ranked. Never had an interest in giving BJJ the extra times which that would have required.

I've always seen both as opposite sides of the same coin. I've used BJJ really as a supplement to my Judo training.

Besides all that I simply wouldn't have the time to give both 100%.

Who knows what the future holds, I'm getting on bit and I've a few injuries which just aren't healing and have been considering retiring from Judo.

I figured that might have been the case. I also know some judoka who’ve earned ranks in BJJ simply due to their newaza being so dangerous rather than formal jiu jitsu training – easier when you’re an Olympianswithout a day job ��

I do some judo to supplement my BJJ. But if I started giving it equal time to BJJ I'd end up with both half-assed. My coach is structured in his gradings, and there's a reasonable amount of judo included in the requirements. I've a feeling it's lifted mostly from the syllabus for the first few judo ranks. So basic enough.


I find those old photos interesting. How many are still training? If you took a random group of 10 guys today, in 2 years time 8 would be dropouts, never mind 13 years.

eeloe

So finally started back training last week, after a couple of months lay off with knee injuries, broken toes, and just not being well over the summer.

I'm not sure if i've just become absolutely ****e....or all the other lads in the club are after getting much better, but i'm getting absolutely mauled in every roll. Before i got injured, i used to have a pretty good closed guard, would be rare for someone to be able to open it without gassing themselves out....now, they can open it much easier, and when they do, i try and go for sweeps, it's as if my legs don't want to work, they have absolutely NO power....

Damn it, who'd have thought a couple of months off would give me such a set back!

RoboRat

eeloe wrote: »

So finally started back training last week, after a couple of months lay off with knee injuries, broken toes, and just not being well over the summer.

I'm not sure if i've just become absolutely ****e....or all the other lads in the club are after getting much better, but i'm getting absolutely mauled in every roll. Before i got injured, i used to have a pretty good closed guard, would be rare for someone to be able to open it without gassing themselves out....now, they can open it much easier, and when they do, i try and go for sweeps, it's as if my legs don't want to work, they have absolutely NO power....

Damn it, who'd have thought a couple of months off would give me such a set back!

They have improved and you're rusty. Been there when I was out for over a year with a ACL tear and lads who I started with were getting their blues and mauling me. They have picked up new techniques and polished what they know. It happens and don't worry about it. BJJ is a long journey and it's rare that someone can go through without sustaining a significant injury or several small injuries that will impede their progress.

All bar 2 of the lads I started with have quit and I am still at it as I see it as an adventure rather than a sprint... I am living for the training, not the belt and I am also older so I don't mind tapping rather than risking an injury.

Don't let it get to you, these are the challenges that weed out those who will go all the way from those who will quit.

RoboRat

sonic85 wrote: »

Can you go easier and lighter when rolling though? I seem to get swept too easily and then when I find myself on the bottom I'm pretty much stuck. If the lad I'm rolling with is bigger and stronger and he's going for a kimura or something I have to fight hard just to survive. It's frustrating as hell TBH

I always give this advice to newbies and it's what Royce Gracie always preached. Work on your defence and make yourself near impossible to submit - I'm not talking about hanging on or not tapping, just working on feeling the subtle body movements to predict what sub is coming and when a sub is being applied, moving to the right position to counter or nullify.

Once you have gotten to this point, then you can focus on sweeps and subs. If you are really difficult to sub, people try harder and make more errors which you can capitalise on when you start focusing on attacking.

My personal journey started with defence then I moved to position and maintaining position, maximising pressure - making myself hard to shift whilst exerting ungodly pressure on my opponent... I also worked on trying to keep as many contact points with my opponent as possible. Then I moved to sweeps and subs and I am still there now. I am 41 and carrying a lot of historical injuries so I have a clear strategy which plays to my strengths and capabilities. I am very instinctual and tend to catch very unorthdox submissions and this is because I spent a lot of time working on defence and understanding the attacks and movements so I can be one step ahead.

eeloe

RoboRat wrote: »

They have improved and you're rusty. Been there when I was out for over a year with a ACL tear and lads who I started with were getting their blues and mauling me. They have picked up new techniques and polished what they know. It happens and don't worry about it. BJJ is a long journey and it's rare that someone can go through without sustaining a significant injury or several small injuries that will impede their progress.

All bar 2 of the lads I started with have quit and I am still at it as I see it as an adventure rather than a sprint... I am living for the training, not the belt and I am also older so I don't mind tapping rather than risking an injury.

Don't let it get to you, these are the challenges that weed out those who will go all the way from those who will quit.

Oh i'm deffo not quitting, i'm just going to have to be more selective with my rolls going forward. They've all gotten so fast it's crazy, got caught in an armbar last night, and only got i tapped as it was going on, it was going to be snap time...the force behind it was going to be nasty....and he had my arm so tied up before he even began to go backwards, there was no point in even trying to line up an escape.

My cardio is shot to bits aswell, while i was off, i was going plenty of bike in the gym, hoping that would keep me at the level i was...but nah...didn't work...the only way to get jiu jitsu cardio is to do jiu jitsu!

RoboRat

eeloe wrote: »

Oh i'm deffo not quitting, i'm just going to have to be more selective with my rolls going forward. They've all gotten so fast it's crazy, got caught in an armbar last night, and only got i tapped as it was going on, it was going to be snap time...the force behind it was going to be nasty....and he had my arm so tied up before he even began to go backwards, there was no point in even trying to line up an escape.

My cardio is shot to bits aswell, while i was off, i was going plenty of bike in the gym, hoping that would keep me at the level i was...but nah...didn't work...the only way to get jiu jitsu cardio is to do jiu jitsu!

I would have a word with whomever done that, just explain that this is training and not the mundials and that you are only coming back after a long lay off. Ask them to ease up a bit until you find your rhythm again.

Probably best to also roll with the higher belts as they possess far more control. Personally I like wrist locks but I have yet to injure anyone in 7 years as I make sure I have tight control before I apply pressure and it's a slow very controlled pressure... a novice would go straight for pressure without control and that's when accidents happen.

eeloe

RoboRat wrote: »

I would have a word with whomever done that, just explain that this is training and not the mundials and that you are only coming back after a long lay off. Ask them to ease up a bit until you find your rhythm again.

Probably best to also roll with the higher belts as they possess far more control. Personally I like wrist locks but I have yet to injure anyone in 7 years as I make sure I have tight control before I apply pressure and it's a slow very controlled pressure... a novice would go straight for pressure without control and that's when accidents happen.

Ah this lad is grand, he's just really "excited" when he trains, he doesn't really know "light". When he has a sub, he usually goes for it. It's just a combination of him after getting really good, and not usually able to armbar me, then the opportunity arose, he just went for it, and then me being rusty, i'd normally be able to defend or try and escape and just being too rusty to try.

Tazzimus

eeloe wrote: »

got caught in an armbar last night, and only got i tapped as it was going on, it was going to be snap time...the force behind it was going to be nasty....and he had my arm so tied up before he even began to go backwards, there was no point in even trying to line up an escape.

I've been there with someone a bit overenthusiastic with an armbar.
I swear he leapt backwards he pulled that hard, I tapped soon as I realised what was happening but there was still a fair amount of pain and I had trouble with that arm for a few weeks.

He also didn't mean it (I think) but I was pissed that he was so reckless, armbars like that can do a lot of damage.

If that happens, say it to the person so they don't do it to someone else less prepared and hurt them.

No ego's and all that jazz

eeloe

Tazzimus wrote: »

I've been there with someone a bit overenthusiastic with an armbar.
I swear he leapt backwards he pulled that hard, I tapped soon as I realised what was happening but there was still a fair amount of pain and I had trouble with that arm for a few weeks.

He also didn't mean it (I think) but I was pissed that he was so reckless, armbars like that can do a lot of damage.

If that happens, say it to the person so they don't do it to someone else less prepared and hurt them.

No ego's and all that jazz

The more i think about it, i will say it to him, forgot it could happen to someone else, especially one of the new guys/girls thats just started!

arybvtcw0eolkf

Mellor wrote: »

I find those old photos interesting. How many are still training? If you took a random group of 10 guys today, in 2 years time 8 would be dropouts, never mind 13 years.

About 50% of that group are still training, which I think he a testament to what Andy Ryan has been building.

And yes the drop out rates are horrific, I think more so in Judo because a Judoka can only grade to green within the club, after which they must fight at a national grading & some competitions for their blue, brown and black belts ~ which doesn't suit a non competitive person, it gets really tough.

I like the competitive element, love it in fact.

I do some judo to supplement my BJJ. But if I started giving it equal time to BJJ I'd end up with both half-assed. My coach is structured in his gradings, and there's a reasonable amount of judo included in the requirements. I've a feeling it's lifted mostly from the syllabus for the first few judo ranks. So basic enough.

Like me so. I think if one can cross train then it benefits everyone. The club I train in doesn't about a 50/50 split in ground and take downs. WE train free style (old competition rules) and no-gi wrestling too. Then a few of us also cross train in other BJJ clubs.

eeloe

I dunno why, but I thought Andy Ryan had his black belt for about 10 years???

When did he get it?

Mellor

eeloe wrote: »

Ah this lad is grand, he's just really "excited" when he trains, he doesn't really know "light". When he has a sub, he usually goes for it. It's just a combination of him after getting really good, and not usually able to armbar me, then the opportunity arose, he just went for it, and then me being rusty, i'd normally be able to defend or try and escape and just being too rusty to try.

He's probably getting better. But he still still very much like a enthusiastic white belt. There's nothing wrong with being enthusiastic, but as he's moving towards not being outclassed every roll, he needs to learn to taper than enthusiasm. Especially with new guys. You were able to protect yourself. A random in his first week might not have.

Phoebe Full Overlap wrote: »

And yes the drop out rates are horrific, I think more so in Judo because a Judoka can only grade to green within the club, after which they must fight at a national grading & some competitions for their blue, brown and black belts ~ which doesn't suit a non competitive person, it gets really tough.

I like the competitive element, love it in fact.

I'm the same, I love competition. I like testing myself and finding out where I sit in my skill/belt level in the broader pool - which has pros and cons tbh.

How proficient do you need to be to get the first few judo belts?
I went down a bit of a judo rabbit hole yesterday and I was looking at the throw "groups" fro, the Kodokan. And I realised I know 5 or 6 from each of the first 3 groups. Which covers the gradings up to green belt, I think

arybvtcw0eolkf

eeloe wrote: »

I dunno why, but I thought Andy Ryan had his black belt for about 10 years???

When did he get it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_tPQmyA1ZE

April 2011

arybvtcw0eolkf

Mellor wrote: »

How proficient do you need to be to get the first few judo belts?
I went down a bit of a judo rabbit hole yesterday and I was looking at the throw "groups" fro, the Kodokan. And I realised I know 5 or 6 from each of the first 3 groups. Which covers the gradings up to green belt, I think

Depends on the clubs and your coach really.

You are tested on your technical knowledge so in theory the Judoka really should know the syllabus.. Some people are tested easier than other's, and I'll leave that there.

If you can work the throws you know even to your level and make combinations from them, including understanding grip fighting you can pretty much compete on a decent level just there.

Although I know probably over 90% of the Judokan syllabus without too much effort I'd only using a very small number of throws, off the top of my head ~ My 'go to' throws are Osoto Gari, Uchi Mata, & Harai goshi, but its what does on to set those up is where experience comes in.

I've been asked by a few BJJ and MMA coaches to teach throws in their class but I liken that to asking someone to come into a boxing club and just teach sucker punches and farmers hooks & totally ignoring the jab, head movement, foot work, levels etc.

So you really have to know the throws and how they're set up because unless your opponent is completely switched off you're never going to just hit one of those throws off the bat.

Same goes for ground work (newaza). The vast majority of my subs are by way of Ude Garami (Americana) and Kesa Gatami (scarf hold). I don't think I've ever gotten an armbar sub in competition despite knowing how to get them from anywhere, I'm just better at other things.

Here's a sad fact (IMO).. Due to the new Judo competition rules one can actually use more old/free style Judo in a BJJ competition can you can in a Judo competition, and that pisses me right the fvck off.

Sorry getting long winded about this (and after coming off a 24 hour shift its probably a little disjointed too).

Crossing training between the two.. I believe a BJJ player has more to benefit from cross training in Judo than a Judoka has in cross training in BJJ.. Why?.

A BJJ player has all the time in the world to try apply a throw in competition for 2 points but a Judoka has to be very explosive on the ground and try to quickly and actively work for the sub before the fight is stood up.

A judoka just wouldn't be allowed the time to work for subs and positions on the ground like BJJ player would, then there's other rules like we're not scored for knee on belly, passing guard etc.

average hero

Hey Mellor - just a post from me in relation to Judo.

As Makikomi said above, it depends on your coach and club. You could learn all of the 'moves' and grade within a week, but the skill in it is in seeing how:
- you grip fight. both knowing them and knowing how to use them (I only discovered proper grip fighting in later belts)
- knowing how you react to being pulled around a mat and how to counter
- knowing how to illicit a reaction from an opponent, whether that is a step/misstep or a grip
- uchi komi (breaking balance)
- and hitting the throws from an actively resisting judoka

I have done Judo in two clubs. One under a sophisticated, technique-based coach and my current one who is a scrapper-type of judo coach. For me, I absolutely prefer my current coach. I find I learn more by doing more sparring (randori) and we do it in a fairly rough and ready grappling/judo/wrestling style. The techniques will come when I am ready for them.