Carlow Kilkenny General Election 2016

citykat

Cabaal wrote: »

The schools are state funded, the catholic church can discriminate against who they want when they pay for the school AND running costs.

Until that day its disgraceful that they will discriminate against 5 year olds based on their religion or lack of all at the tax payer expense.

If your tax money was being used to fund Muslim, Jewish etc schools and those same schools were the only choice for your family and they wouldn't allow your child into the school I don't think you'd be so accepting of the idea of discrimination at the tax payer expense.

In addition even if a school accepts a non-catholic we've seen that the school can outright refuse the parents wishes for the child to be opted out of catholic religion class (at primary level religion takes 10% of school time, thats as much time as they spend on Maths or English).

That's generally though for practical reasons rather than ideological. If a child cannot attend class for religion where do they go? Children cannot be left unsupervised at all during school hours. Maybe each school should have a non-religion class superviser to cater for these kids. I can only imagine the uproar this expense would generate.

Cabaal

citykat wrote: »

That's generally though for practical reasons rather than ideological. If a child cannot attend class for religion where do they go? Children cannot be left unsupervised at all during school hours. Maybe each school should have a non-religion class superviser to cater for these kids. I can only imagine the uproar this expense would generate.

Ah you see thats the interesting thing, the approach is inconsistent depending on the whim of the schools.

Most schools that do allow parents to exercise their constitutional right to opt their child out of religious teachings generally just allow the child to study or draw pictures (depending on age of course) whilst remaining in the class room (I saw this when I went to school).

However, there has been instances of schools claiming the parents must arrange supervision for the child during religious class time or in a recent case in Limerick the school outright ignoring the parents constitutional rights altogether by telling the parent they can't opt the child out of religion class and only later backtracking on the issue when the story broke in the media. As I'm sure you can agree citykat a school ignoring a parents constitutional rights like this is very worrying indeed,

The approach is inconsistent and needs to be reformed and rules put in place by the DOE. For example if a school wants to request that parents arrange their own supervision then the school should need to place religion class at the very end of the school day, this more easily allows parents to make arrangements.

Of course even this would be a poor solution as 10% of primary school time is taken up by religious instruction so effectively a school would be asking a parent to supervisor their own child during 10% of the school year just so they don't have to take part in a catholic religion class.

Religion is a very personal thing and really it is better left to parents and priests, it should never be the tax payers role to pay for religious instruction when most people have a perfectly good church nearby and the vast majority don't bother to use it or even have a interest in doing so unless its a funeral or wedding. One has to question just how interested they are in religion.

I no more expect the Irish state to teach the Jewish or Muslim faith to children then I do the catholic faith,

If the state must insist on religious education then the current catholic religious class should be reformed to give equal time to all faiths and none, the current setup does not reflect the multi-cultural Ireland we live in today.

Its also slightly worrying that a child can go to school and during this 10% religious time they can be told their own parents are wrong and sinful, we shouldn't have a setup like this in our educational system at the tax payers expense.

Owryan

My kids go to a school in Kilkenny that every class has religious studies at the same time.

They rotate which teacher supervises those children who have opted out, normally they do something nature based

Sky King

Children cannot be left unsupervised at all during school hours.

If there's a dedicated number of minutes per day dedicated to Catholic faith formation I don't understand why they are not earmarked to be the last minutes of each day, with an option for the child to go home early instead, if you don't want them being indoctrinated.

Cabaal

Owryan wrote: »

My kids go to a school in Kilkenny that every class has religious studies at the same time.

They rotate which teacher supervises those children who have opted out, normally they do something nature based

Sounds like a perfectly reasonable solution,

kikel

Owryan wrote: »

My kids go to a school in Kilkenny that every class has religious studies at the same time.

They rotate which teacher supervises those children who have opted out, normally they do something nature based

Which school is that please?

road_high

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Mary Lou was on Newstalk earlier this morning repeating the Good Republican line re. Slab Murphy. Does't seem overly embarrassed by the dose of fleas she's acquired by lying down with the dogs

Well birds of a feather and all that...she likes to peddle this (very thin) veneer of respectability, but lightly scratch the surface and you see what's underneath very quickly. She behaved like an absolute thug on that show, abusing other guests in the manner she did.

Nokia6230i

New candidate in the race from the Carlow side of the constituency.

Keith Gilligan running under the Right 2 Change banner as an Ind./NP; here's his GFM Page which details why he's running >

https://www.gofundme.com/cakmqsn8

He's the 3rd R2C Candidate in the race; PBP-AAA Candidate from Carlow Adrienne Wallace & Shinner Kathleen Funchion.

Find it odd that C MacLiam of AAA-PBP is not part of this movement given the 2 Parties have united for the General Election.

Policy wise is there much difference between AAA & PBP/PBFP/PB4P and indeed the R2C movement?

road_high

Nokia6230i wrote: »

New candidate in the race from the Carlow side of the constituency.

Keith Gilligan running under the Right 2 Change banner as an Ind./NP; here's his GFM Page which details why he's running >

https://www.gofundme.com/cakmqsn8

He's the 3rd R2C Candidate in the race; PBP-AAA Candidate from Carlow Adrienne Wallace & Shinner Kathleen Funchion.

Find it odd that C MacLiam of AAA-PBP is not part of this movement given the 2 Parties have united for the General Election.

Policy wise is there much difference between AAA & PBP/PBFP/PB4P and indeed the R2C movement?

I heard of him before not sure how though. Was it the near riot outside Tesco in Carlow last year? Seriously had enough of these nutters...what we need is good right wing on fiscal matters candidates to stand up for us taxpayers, not these career anarchists.

Nokia6230i

road_high wrote: »

I heard of him before not sure how though. Was it the near riot outside Tesco in Carlow last year? Seriously had enough of these nutters...what we need is good right wing on fiscal matters candidates and stand up for us taxpayers, but these career anarchists.

That was indeed "our Keith"!

I'm nae a supporter of his or the R2C R2H R2W Right 2 Everything/Pay For Sod All Movement, in his defence I do think "riot" is over-egging it a bit.

In the end after being arrested under Public Order Act his case was dismissed in the latter quarter of 2015.

RobertKK

Cabaal wrote: »

The schools are state funded, the catholic church can discriminate against who they want when they pay for the school AND running costs.

Until that day its disgraceful that they will discriminate against 5 year olds based on their religion or lack of all at the tax payer expense.

If your tax money was being used to fund Muslim, Jewish etc schools and those same schools were the only choice for your family and they wouldn't allow your child into the school I don't think you'd be so accepting of the idea of discrimination at the tax payer expense.

In addition even if a school accepts a non-catholic we've seen that the school can outright refuse the parents wishes for the child to be opted out of catholic religion class (at primary level religion takes 10% of school time, thats as much time as they spend on Maths or English).

State funded so they teach the state curriculum.

The state could stop funding them but then have nowhere for children to be educated.

RobertKK

Cabaal wrote: »

The schools are state funded, the catholic church can discriminate against who they want when they pay for the school AND running costs.

Until that day its disgraceful that they will discriminate against 5 year olds based on their religion or lack of all at the tax payer expense.

If your tax money was being used to fund Muslim, Jewish etc schools and those same schools were the only choice for your family and they wouldn't allow your child into the school I don't think you'd be so accepting of the idea of discrimination at the tax payer expense.

In addition even if a school accepts a non-catholic we've seen that the school can outright refuse the parents wishes for the child to be opted out of catholic religion class (at primary level religion takes 10% of school time, thats as much time as they spend on Maths or English).

It is not the fault of Catholic schools though.

The state basically pays private schools to provide education. People point the blame in the wrong direction, the state should be building public schools, but has relied on others to provide the education.
Bertie Ahern said this policy has saved the state many billions as they didn't have to build all the schools or buy the property.

jelutong

What's the protocol re candidates from The Waterford Constituency sticking posters up in Carlow/Kilkenny? Fine Gael people stuck a poster with land grabber Paudie Coffeys big head on it near The Aldi Store in Ferrybank. That was in Kilkenny the last time I checked.

fits

Just looking at whichcandidate.ie to see how my position matches with candidates. All the FG candidates answers are the same.

all FF and FG candidates are against repeal of the 8th amendment so I wont be voting for them.

fits

Just looking at whichcandidate.ie to see how my position matches with candidates. All the FG candidates answers are the same.

all FF and FG candidates are against repeal of the 8th amendment so I wont be voting for them.

citykat

Cabaal wrote: »

Ah you see thats the interesting thing, the approach is inconsistent depending on the whim of the schools.

Most schools that do allow parents to exercise their constitutional right to opt their child out of religious teachings generally just allow the child to study or draw pictures (depending on age of course) whilst remaining in the class room (I saw this when I went to school).

However, there has been instances of schools claiming the parents must arrange supervision for the child during religious class time or in a recent case in Limerick the school outright ignoring the parents constitutional rights altogether by telling the parent they can't opt the child out of religion class and only later backtracking on the issue when the story broke in the media. As I'm sure you can agree citykat a school ignoring a parents constitutional rights like this is very worrying indeed,

The approach is inconsistent and needs to be reformed and rules put in place by the DOE. For example if a school wants to request that parents arrange their own supervision then the school should need to place religion class at the very end of the school day, this more easily allows parents to make arrangements.

Of course even this would be a poor solution as 10% of primary school time is taken up by religious instruction so effectively a school would be asking a parent to supervisor their own child during 10% of the school year just so they don't have to take part in a catholic religion class.

Religion is a very personal thing and really it is better left to parents and priests, it should never be the tax payers role to pay for religious instruction when most people have a perfectly good church nearby and the vast majority don't bother to use it or even have a interest in doing so unless its a funeral or wedding. One has to question just how interested they are in religion.

I no more expect the Irish state to teach the Jewish or Muslim faith to children then I do the catholic faith,

If the state must insist on religious education then the current catholic religious class should be reformed to give equal time to all faiths and none, the current setup does not reflect the multi-cultural Ireland we live in today.

Its also slightly worrying that a child can go to school and during this 10% religious time they can be told their own parents are wrong and sinful, we shouldn't have a setup like this in our educational system at the tax payers expense.

Not sure how well informed you are but Kilkenny has it's own non-denominational school so any parents who don't want the religious/catholic ethos should enroll their kids there.

That would be the most straightforward solution to any parents concerns regarding religious indoctrination/instruction. It's far more preferable than some of the disruptive solutions proposed above.

It would also allay any parents concern that their child's constitutional rights were not being respected.

I'm not religious at all myself but in terms of where to send kids for education, a school's religious ethos or otherwise would not be a primary concern. I would certainly not lose sleep over my kids beings told that I'm a sinner/sinful. I don't take myself that seriously.

In terms of school selection I would consider the educational record; sports/recreational facilities; after school activities music/drama etc. would be of more concern.

You're correct, religion is a personal thing. Therefore if some people only attend a church for weddings/funerals, to me, that's their personal choice. I don't concern myself with people's attendance or otherwise at weekly mass.

The issue of tax payers funding religious instruction is one worthy of debate but other than certain political representatives, I don't see a great urge for change. If/when religious instruction is removed from primary education, it will only be done so by the will of the majority. Whatever the status quo, I'll respect the will of the majority.

fits

citykat wrote: »

Not sure how well informed you are but Kilkenny has it's own non-denominational school so any parents who don't want the religious/catholic ethos should enroll their kids there.

That would be the most straightforward solution to any parents concerns regarding religious indoctrination/instruction. It's far more preferable than some of the disruptive solutions proposed above.
.

sorry but that is complete and utter bollox. Many of us live a 30 minute drive or further away from any non denominational school and no guarantee of getting in. Religion has no place in public funded schools end of story.

DerryRed

road_high wrote: »

...what we need is good right wing on fiscal matters candidates to stand up for us taxpayers, not these career anarchists.

Speak for yourself. Not all taxpayers are interested in having 'good right wing on fiscal matters candidates'

road_high

DerryRed wrote: »

Speak for yourself. Not all taxpayers are interested in having 'good right wing on fiscal matters candidates'

Not the ones I talk to...those of us on the high rate of tax paying nearly 50% over 32k certainly want our taxes spent in the optimal fashion and not squandered on supporting a welfare class of entitlement. Only not very bright people would want otherwise.

DerryRed

fits wrote: »

sorry but that is complete and utter bollox. Many of us live a 30 minute drive or further away from any non denominational school and no guarantee of getting in. Religion has no place in public funded schools end of story.

My father sits on the board of governers in a Catholic school in N.Ireland. I was talking to him about this issue recently and he was telling me that throughout the country, North & South, the Catholic Church has in the last few years offered to hand over schools to the State, but the State have not been prepared to buy the property and land off the Church.

Due to the costs involved I imagine the State will not do anything on this issue until it is clear that an overwhelming majority support it, or their hand is forced by someone taking this through the courts.

road_high

jelutong wrote: »

What's the protocol re candidates from The Waterford Constituency sticking posters up in Carlow/Kilkenny? Fine Gael people stuck a poster with land grabber Paudie Coffeys big head on it near The Aldi Store in Ferrybank. That was in Kilkenny the last time I checked.

I'd imagine they're free to, but a silly waste of his posters as the locals in Carlow/Kilkenny can't vote for that donkey. John Paul Phelan lives in Ferrybank, a TD of infinitely greater ability then Coffey (which wouldn't be too hard) just didn't get a Junior/Senior Ministry thanks to Enda Kenny. One to watch in future cabinets though when Kenny steps aside.

DerryRed

road_high wrote: »

Not the ones I talk to...those of us on the high rate of tax paying nearly 50% over 32k certainly want our taxes spent in the optimal fashion and not squandered on supporting a welfare class of entitlement. Only not very bright people would want otherwise.

Not everyone is earning over 32k

road_high

DerryRed wrote: »

Not everyone is earning over 32k

No, but we are the ones paying proportionally more in tax- our voice is much under represented in a field of tax everything, pay for nothing lefties.

DerryRed

road_high wrote: »

No, but we are the ones paying proportionally more in tax- our voice is much under represented in a field of tax everything, pay for nothing lefties.

That's democracy for you i.e. a selection of candidates representing the various spectrums of society. It would be awful boring otherwise.

So when you say 'We' I assume you mean a specific section of society and not everyone. I'm sure those people who work hard but don't earn a particularly decent wage would have little interest in the policies of 'right wing on fiscal matters candidates'.

cameramonkey

http://www.irishexaminer.com/election2016/election2016-news-and-analysis/barring-catastrophes-incumbents-set-to-return-in-carlow-kilkenny-380089.html

Examined saying that that it will be the two sitting FG TDs, McGuiness, Aylward and Phelan. I would agree that JPP, McGuiness and Aylward should make it but with Funchion and one other. Phelan hasn't a hope.

Its a pretty poor article.

fits

cameramonkey wrote: »

Phelan hasn't a hope.

Its a pretty poor article.

How are you so sure Phelan has a bad chance? Are there polls for the constituency? (genuinely interested)

Sky King

...what we need is good right wing on fiscal matters candidates to stand up for us taxpayers, not these career anarchists.

Renua Ireland are probably as right wing as you're going to get, realistically. Only issue (if indeed it is an issue) with this is that they they are socially quite conservative as well. They allow votes of conscience on ethical issues but according to whichcandidate seem to be very much in favour of the state-sanctioned programming of children with religion.

road_high

Sky King wrote: »

Renua Ireland are probably as right wing as you're going to get, realistically. Only issue (if indeed it is an issue) with this is that they they are socially quite conservative as well. They allow votes of conscience on ethical issues but according to whichcandidate seem to be very much in favour of the state-sanctioned programming of children with religion.

They're a non entity though I'm afraid. Lucky to get a few seats, and hopefully no input to the next government- they were only set up because of Lucinda and her stance on abortion- that's no basis for a new political party as far as I'm concerned.

road_high

cameramonkey wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/election2016/election2016-news-and-analysis/barring-catastrophes-incumbents-set-to-return-in-carlow-kilkenny-380089.html

Examined saying that that it will be the two sitting FG TDs, McGuiness, Aylward and Phelan. I would agree that JPP, McGuiness and Aylward should make it but with Funchion and one other. Phelan hasn't a hope.

Its a pretty poor article.

"Labour’s Ann Phelan, in 2011, retook the seat once held by former ceann comhairle Seamus Pattison. Appointed a junior agriculture minister by Joan Burton in 2014, her recent fall from a canoe into a foot of water looms large in the memory.

She should be okay for the last seat, edging out Sinn Féin’s Kathleen Funchion, who will be hoping to compete for it."

They don't seem to think so....

cameramonkey

FG's incompetence in election organisation in the Carlow/KK constituency cannot be underestimated.
In the 2007 election the three blue shirts shared a combined vote of over 29% which with any half arsed mob should be enough to get at least 2 elected. However FG split the vote so perfectly that they only got one seat.