Wasps v Leinster match thread

ThisRegard

If fairness I don't think there have been over the top reactions in terms of omg Leinster are never going to win a game again.

I said at the outset I've no problem with a defeat, it's the manner of it and why fans, the players or Cullen would be OK with it purely because the game meant nothing.

irishbucsfan

Tox56 wrote: »

Are "ok" and "nothing special" really accurate terms to describe this squad? We contributed literally half the entire Irish six nations squad, most of our pack is first choice in their positions for Ireland and if not they arent far off, and there are Lions quality players all over the field. The best team we have is certainly European cup winning quality and our depth is very good by most standards, I would not regard the squad we have as nothing special. I think the fact we were spoiled by an absolutely phenomenal team a couple of years ago didnt raise expectations to an impossible level, but instead lessened expectations when that really shouldnt be the case

With Sexton and Nacewa back we're close to a top class side again. Our backline really struggled without their leadership and there was noone capable of stepping into that void. We saw that again today.

I do feel that our recent huge success and the high profile of our players actually contributes more to days like today as well. It'd be very difficult for a Lion/International to motivate themselves to play away from home in a dead rubber with the 6 Nations up next.

Buer

Tox56 wrote: »

Are "ok" and "nothing special" really accurate terms to describe this squad? We contributed literally half the entire Irish six nations squad, most of our pack is first choice in their positions for Ireland and if not they arent far off, and there are Lions quality players all over the field. The best team we have is certainly European cup winning quality and our depth is very good by most standards, I would not regard the squad we have as nothing special. I think the fact we were spoiled by an absolutely phenomenal team a couple of years ago didnt raise expectations to an impossible level, but instead lessened expectations when that really shouldnt be the case

Top class players do not equate to a top class side. We are potentially a top class side but not this season. We don't have a top class coaching team, which is the biggest gap. We've a squad that is massively impacted by national selection to a greater extent it wasn't when Schmidt was at Leinster also.

I also think the playing personnel, whilst potentially top class, isn't at the level it was. Heaslip is Ireland's best ever No. 8 but he's 32 and has played a crazy amount of rugby. Kearney is 30 and has a decade of rugby under his belt along with a long injury history. Sexton's injury woes are probably never going to fully go away at this point and I'd be shocked if he saw out his current contract. Cian Healy is a shadow of what he was 3 years ago. Most importantly, we've lost a huge amount of leadership within the camp over the past 18 months. BOD, Cullen, Jennings and McLaughlin...all Leinster captains are gone. Throw in D'Arcy too and we're down a lot of experience there.

I could go on regarding the standard of the personnel but there has been a drop there and we need to realise that we're not going to be winning European silverware any time soon.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

It was a poor performance, particularly in the second half. We were right in it at half time. We were completely out-thought up front and our starting flankers, as I suspected, have no business playing at this level on their current form. Ruddock is not a lock any day of the week.

I do think people are completely ignoring the fact that Wasps are a very good team just like it was glossed over last week that Bath were very poor.

With that said, the heads went down and the fight went out of them after 50 minutes. The players knew the race was run and they pretty much ambled around the field after that.

I do hold them accountable for such a poor response but there's absolutely no way people can read so much into it given the reality of what was at stake.

As per usual, the reactions here are completely knee jerk. Last week it was all about how the future is safe, what an academy, superb performance and this week it's about how we're back to where we were 2 months ago, this is a disaster and the players should be ashamed.

Just as the former wasn't true last week, the latter isn't this week. The truth is somewhere in the middle. We're an ok side. Nothing special and got our arses handed to us in a dead rubber game. I wish we had maintained a more professional performance when things started going wrong but, to be honest, the game was done the moment Sexton went off.

Pretty much agree with most of this. The loss of Sexton was enormous. Marsh was ok, but wasn't the controlling presence we needed. Which we shouldn't be surprised about. I'm still surprised Mads wasn't in the 23 at all given his lack of game time.

It should be remembered that we were actually pretty good in the first half. We had guys coming onto the ball at pace and got ourselves into a few good scoring positions. A lot of 50/50 stuff like the bounce of the ball didn't go our way and even that missed knock on in the second half was the difference between good field position for us and good field position for Wasps. The penalty try was the killing blow and we were on the plane from then on. Given the mi and match type squad we had out there that first half was very positive I thought.

Interested Observer

That was absolutely ****e. Must be Leinster's worst Euro defeat ever? Fairly disgusted I have to say.

errlloyd

Luckily a lot of tonight's average performers will be busy for the next few weeks.

awec

Buer wrote: »

Top class players do not equate to a top class side. We are potentially a top class side but not this season. We don't have a top class coaching team, which is the biggest gap. We've a squad that is massively impacted by national selection to a greater extent it wasn't when Schmidt was at Leinster also.

I also think the playing personnel, whilst potentially top class, isn't at the level it was. Heaslip is Ireland's best ever No. 8 but he's 32 and has played a crazy amount of rugby. Kearney is 30 and has a decade of rugby under his belt along with a long injury history. Sexton's injury woes are probably never going to fully go away at this point and I'd be shocked if he saw out his current contract. Cian Healy is a shadow of what he was 3 years ago. Most importantly, we've lost a huge amount of leadership within the camp over the past 18 months. BOD, Cullen, Jennings and McLaughlin...all Leinster captains are gone. Throw in D'Arcy too and we're down a lot of experience there.

I could go on regarding the standard of the personnel but there has been a drop there and we need to realise that we're not going to be winning European silverware any time soon.

Agree with this. Leinster may have a lot of depth but these guys coming through are mostly just good solid players rather than exceptional players.

This, combined with the fact that your exceptional players aren't really that exceptional any more means standards are going to drop.

However, I don't think it really excuses that sort of scoreline today. Yea it was a nothing match, but there's a difference between losing a nothing match by 10-15 points and losing it by over 40 points.

Billysays no

irishbucsfan wrote: »

With Sexton and Nacewa back we're close to a top class side again. Our backline really struggled without their leadership and there was noone capable of stepping into that void. We saw that again today.

I do feel that our recent huge success and the high profile of our players actually contributes more to days like today as well. It'd be very difficult for a Lion/International to motivate themselves to play away from home in a dead rubber with the 6 Nations up next.

Totally agree with this viewpoint. On that basis why would you pick a team that simply was utterly dull. Why not change it up a bit rather than play so many players out of position. Yes, it was a dead rubber for Leinster but all the more opportunity to test players. Just thought it was an utter waste of 80 minutes for leinster. Nothing to learn.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It'd be very difficult for a Lion/International to motivate themselves to play away from home in a dead rubber with the 6 Nations up next.

They have to play for their spot in the 6Ns - surely that would motivate them? There are viable options nearly everywhere from 6-15.

irishbucsfan

Billysays no wrote: »

Totally agree with this viewpoint. On that basis why would you pick a team that simply was utterly dull. Why not change it up a bit rather than play so many players out of position. Yes, it was a dead rubber for Leinster but all the more opportunity to test players. Just thought it was an utter waste of 80 minutes for leinster. Nothing to learn.

Well we did switch it up last week.

I think the answer to that question is that the guys who we would use to switch it up (Moloney, Ringrose, Tracy, McGrath, Marsh etc) are all about to be playing consistently for us during the 6 Nations period and so this game was probably the best opportunity to give them a break before that period.

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

Top class players do not equate to a top class side. We are potentially a top class side but not this season. We don't have a top class coaching team, which is the biggest gap. We've a squad that is massively impacted by national selection to a greater extent it wasn't when Schmidt was at Leinster also.

I also think the playing personnel, whilst potentially top class, isn't at the level it was. Heaslip is Ireland's best ever No. 8 but he's 32 and has played a crazy amount of rugby. Kearney is 30 and has a decade of rugby under his belt along with a long injury history. Sexton's injury woes are probably never going to fully go away at this point and I'd be shocked if he saw out his current contract. Cian Healy is a shadow of what he was 3 years ago. Most importantly, we've lost a huge amount of leadership within the camp over the past 18 months. BOD, Cullen, Jennings and McLaughlin...all Leinster captains are gone. Throw in D'Arcy too and we're down a lot of experience there.

I could go on regarding the standard of the personnel but there has been a drop there and we need to realise that we're not going to be winning European silverware any time soon.

Well this is kind of my point, it's not a patch on the team we had a couple of years ago, but that was a once in a lifetime team, you can't expect wall to wall great players in their prime in most positions, and most if not all teams in Europe don't have that, but we are certainly better than ok and capable of challenging in Europe. There is quality throughout the squad, Henshaw would be handy though...

wp_rathead

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I do feel that our recent huge success and the high profile of our players actually contributes more to days like today as well. It'd be very difficult for a Lion/International to motivate themselves to play away from home in a dead rubber with the 6 Nations up next.

You can't honestly believe that?

Tim Robbins

One thing I thought was good tonight was that it was a test for players like Reid and Marsh in terms of the level they need to be at it to make it as a top pro. You don't learn that from Leinster - A games, even some of the pro 12 matches can be deceptive.

Similarly, it should be clear that Fitz is a better winger than 13.

Cullen has a better idea where more of his squad are at now.

KingBrian2

Leinster let it slip this season. The only positive was beating Munster aside from that pretty much in the doldrums also have to say Madigan was not playing he was Leinster's best kicker. If he goes we are in big trouble which he is so we need to get another big kicker. Connacht don't have a kicker that is why they end up losing a lot while up in Ulster Jackson is an excellent kicker.

Buer

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Leinster let it slip this season. The only positive was beating Munster aside from that pretty much in the doldrums also have to say Madigan was not playing he was Leinster's best kicker. If he goes we are in big trouble which he is so we need to get another big kicker. Connacht don't have a kicker that is why they end up losing a lot while up in Ulster Jackson is an excellent kicker.

Whilst I'm not concerned about the goalkicking, hugely, I am concerned about having any outhalf. Sexton's days are numbered, I feel. He took another knock to the head tonight and he cannot take many more. I would think another one or two (which are almost inevitable) and he'll have the decision taken from his hands and have to retire from the game.

ArmchairQB

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Leinster let it slip this season. The only positive was beating Munster aside from that pretty much in the doldrums also have to say Madigan was not playing he was Leinster's best kicker. If he goes we are in big trouble which he is so we need to get another big kicker. Connacht don't have a kicker that is why they end up losing a lot while up in Ulster Jackson is an excellent kicker.

Ross Byrne coming thru is an excellent kicker as is Ringrose far better than Madigan at same stage of development

Timothy Bryce

ArmchairQB wrote: »

Ross Byrne coming thru is an excellent kicker as is Ringrose far better than Madigan at same stage of development

I read during the week somewhere (tweet machine probably) that Ross Byrne broke his ankle on Monday.

ArmchairQB

Timothy Bryce wrote: »

I read during the week somewhere (tweet machine probably) that Ross Byrne broke his ankle on Monday.

Heard he got an injury during the week but didn't realise it was that serious. That's a big blow for him if true as might have had a few decent opportunities during 6 nations

CatFromHue

Buer wrote: »

Whilst I'm not concerned about the goalkicking, hugely, I am concerned about having any outhalf. Sexton's days are numbered, I feel. He took another knock to the head tonight and he cannot take many more. I would think another one or two (which are almost inevitable) and he'll have the decision taken from his hands and have to retire from the game.

Kev McL retired not from concussion related injuries but because he'd enough that he would just start getting them easier and easier.

thomond2006

Having Marsh at 10 for 70 minutes is not ideal but really....51-10?!

.ak

wp_rathead wrote: »

You can't honestly believe that?

I do.

We played an experimental side against probably the best attacking side in Europe. The senior players would read very much into that. Joe doesn't pick squads on performances put into nothing games. The guys would be very reluctant to bust a gut for this game.

Buer

CatFromHue wrote: »

Kev McL retired not from concussion related injuries but because he'd enough that he would just start getting them easier and easier.

Soooo....what you're saying is that it was a concussion related retirement?!

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

Having Marsh at 10 for 70 minutes is not ideal but really....51-10?!

Marsh was a non-entity for his time, for the most part but the rest of the team was pretty much entirely nonchalant in the second half. We were actually in it at half time but when they scored early in the second half, it was curtains and the team just threw in the towel.

Notable exception was Dave Kearney who was very good again. Fielded high balls well, had one great, scything broken field run and very cleverly offloaded as he was going into touch to keep the ball alive for a Reddan try.

awec

.ak wrote: »

I do.

We played an experimental side against probably the best attacking side in Europe. The senior players would read very much into that. Joe doesn't pick squads on performances put into nothing games. The guys would be very reluctant to bust a gut for this game.

So Dave Kearney being decent the past two weeks will be ignored by Schmidt?

former total

awec wrote: »

So Dave Kearney being decent the past two weeks will be ignored by Schmidt?

Maybe. Dave Kearney being decent the last six months won't be.

Tox56

awec wrote: »

So Dave Kearney being decent the past two weeks will be ignored by Schmidt?

I actually doubt it would be that relevant, I doubt Schmidt has picked his wingers yet and training will determine the starters, it's an incredibly competitive position

.ak

awec wrote: »

So Dave Kearney being decent the past two weeks will be ignored by Schmidt?

Form isn't everything, especially when selecting for a different team.

Dave Kearney has probably been the best wing for the provinces over the past few weeks but I wouldn't be surprised if he misses out on selection all together for Ireland... Because they're a different team, with different tactics and different needs.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if he misses out on selection all together for Ireland... Because they're a different team, with different tactics and different needs.

.....bet he doesn't though!

CatFromHue

Buer wrote: »

Soooo....what you're saying is that it was a concussion related retirement?!

what I'm saying is that if you walk backwards around the Hell Fire Club 3 times while saying the word concussion over and over you actually get a concussion yourself

wp_rathead

.ak wrote: »

I do.

We played an experimental side against probably the best attacking side in Europe. The senior players would read very much into that. Joe doesn't pick squads on performances put into nothing games. The guys would be very reluctant to bust a gut for this game.

So you believe ye got hammered because ye'r players thought game today's game was below them?
I can't bring myself to believe this