leinster vs Bath 14th jan 5:30 Rds/sky sports

Yeah_Right

awec wrote: »

I'd let it happen naturally.

Too much of a risk of setting him back or even ruining him if you stick him in a gym all summer.

I agree. Obviously he will be doing gym work over the summer but hopefully it will be to increase strength and specifically to increase bulk. The size will come.

I agree with AK that there's no need to rush him into the test side. There's plenty of more experienced centres around who can do the job. He should be in the wider squad and he should tour SA. Are there any midweek games on that tour?

wp_rathead

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Was delighted also.

Presume it was a rehearsal though, with the 6N a few weeks away (it is Ireland true rugby song), and hopeful that that frightful dirge about flooded fields in the west will be banished back the C&W ballrooms from whence it hails and not heard again in the hallowed environs of Lansdowne Road.

*cringe*

.ak

Interested Observer wrote: »

When you say things like hopefully he won't break into the team for 2 more years, or that he shouldn't play on the wing and we should bring in Darragh Fanning instead, then I'm going to disagree with you and if that comes over as defensive then so be it.

Now it seems like you're just nit-picking tbh. The physio was over to him a few times... so what? SOB got a load of treatment in the 2nd half too.



Edit - Just on Te'o's tackle, definitely should have been a yellow imo, was really daft.

Well let's just agree to disagree then. If ringrose breaks into the Irish team in the within the next two seasons (and that means legitimate caps not just tour caps) then I owe you a pint.

Interested Observer

.ak wrote: »

Well let's just agree to disagree then. If ringrose breaks into the Irish team in the within the next two seasons (and that means legitimate caps not just tour caps) then I owe you a pint.

I'm not sure he'll break into the Ireland team either in the next two seasons either and I don't think there's any mad rush to get him into the Ireland team, but with all due respect you made those comments I referenced in relation to Leinster, not Ireland.

Crimsonforce

This is a legit question, where actually is Darragh fanning?

Interested Observer

Crimsonforce wrote: »

This is a legit question, where actually is Darragh fanning?

He's been playing for the 'A' team.

Buer

.ak wrote: »

Because that law is there to protect players being dropped from a height. How many times do you tackle someone and you lose grip and the fall to deck? If the law was being upheld vehemently then there'd be a lot of yellows being bandied out.

This looks worse because of the fact he nearly goes beyond the horizontal (but doesn't) and because he aggressively brings him to deck. He slipped out of his grasp for the last few inches but not enough to ever cause any other injury.

I think it looks worse than it is.

How many times do people tackle another player, lift them clear of the ground and lose their grip? Not often because it's very much discouraged and often results in a yellow card. It doesn't look to me like Te'o lost his grip either.

Height has nothing to do with the matter. You're using the phrase "brings him to deck" which he clearly doesn't. If you watch the slow motion replays, you can clearly see Te'o lifts him, Joseph's legs go above horizontal, Te'o brings him towards the ground hard and then drops him with more than enough force to hurt him. Joseph's shoulder/upper body comes into contact with the ground first and he's immediately looking to the referee to do something about the incident.

In the below shot, Te'o has released Joseph, he has brought him beyond the horizontal (hips are higher than shoulders) and he's still got the last foot or so to hit the ground. I can't see how it should be anything but a card.

Quint2010

.ak wrote: »

Why wouldn't you? The outside centre isn't just there to pass the ball or arc their run. They need to offer a strike run capability. Both centres need to be able to carry through traffic.

The idea of having a bosh 12 and a 13 who skirts around contact is a myth. The best centre can do it all.

I think the perfect centre combo is one which has a big 12 who can crash ball and a 13 that can glide around defenders and give scoring passes eg Roberts and Davies, Nonu/Williams and Smith, Bastareud and Fofana. Not sure Ireland have it quote right with Henshaw and Payne but it's not bad. I don't think Ringrose shouldn't be picked because he doesn't have it in his armoury.

errlloyd

Quint2010 wrote: »

I think the perfect centre combo is one which has a big 12 who can crash ball and a 13 that can glide around defenders and give scoring passes eg Roberts and Davies, Nonu/Williams and Smith, Bastareud and Fofana. Not sure Ireland have it quote right with Henshaw and Payne but it's not bad. I don't think Ringrose shouldn't be picked because he doesn't have it in his armoury.

Think you have basteraud and fofanna the wrong way around.

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

Never a yellow for me, he "drops" him about 10 inches from the deck. If he lifted above the horizontal then I'd say yellow.

Dropping a player is a yellow whether or not it's horizontal. If you take a player off the ground then you bring him back down, full stop.

Hagz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Dropping a player is a yellow whether or not it's horizontal. If you take a player off the ground then you bring him back down, full stop.

Are you saying that in any and all circumstance where you release a player after bringing them off the ground it's a straight yellow? Thats bogus.

Whether the legs go above the horizontal is the whole point. Otherwise where's the danger?

molloyjh

Te'o should have been carded. I can't understand how anyone can say otherwise. Legs went above the horizontal and the player was then dropped. Seemed a clear call to me and I'm surprised he got away with it. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him cited for it.

irishbucsfan

Hagz wrote: »

Are you saying that in any and all circumstance where you release a player after bringing them off the ground it's a straight yellow? Thats bogus.

Whether the legs go above the horizontal is the whole point. Otherwise where's the danger?

It's not a yellow card in every situation

The danger is that you have absolutely no control over the player once you let go, and people naturally twist towards their head.

Hagz

Phew. You had me worried for a sec there.

irishbucsfan

There are situations where I do feel sorry for players involved in tip tackle situations. Particularly because players end up in the air a lot of the time when the tackler didn't expect it or engineer it and they just fail to deal with the surprise of having to look after the ball carrier in the air. That's what happened to me the first time I was penalised for it (a long time before yellows/reds were normal for tip tackles).

But this situation isn't one where I can sympathise for Te'o at all. He's intentionally brought JJ off the ground and thrown him back to the ground. It's dangerous play and to be honest I can't understand why he wasn't carded for it (and Bath fans are very right to feel aggrieved).

former total

It was a bit dangerous, he lifted him and dropped him. However he didn't drop him on his head, neck or shoulders. Penalty was enough, IMO, could have been yellow and would have been fair enough. Anything more would be extremely harsh.

hogandrew

Quint2010 wrote: »

I think the perfect centre combo is one which has a big 12 who can crash ball and a 13 that can glide around defenders and give scoring passes eg Roberts and Davies, Nonu/Williams and Smith, Bastareud and Fofana. Not sure Ireland have it quote right with Henshaw and Payne but it's not bad. I don't think Ringrose shouldn't be picked because he doesn't have it in his armoury.

I don't think an international rugby game would be beyond him at the moment. It's just he wouldn't have the correct conditioning yet to play one a week after another or a tournament.

hogandrew

molloyjh wrote: »

Te'o should have been carded. I can't understand how anyone can say otherwise. Legs went above the horizontal and the player was then dropped. Seemed a clear call to me and I'm surprised he got away with it. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him cited for it.

What is the rule regarding getting cited? I taught it was an offense which should have carried a red card.

AdamD

If that's a red card the games ****ed

The Rape of Lucretia

"- The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety (red card offence)

- For all other types of dangerous lifting tackles a yellow card or penalty may be considered sufficient"



Since you cannot be dropped from zero height, the first point presumably gives the ref discretion on what he determines a safe height. If he considers there was no disregard for the players safety and the height was not 'a height', then the second point applies. The Teo case was off the ground, but what, a foot ?

Fair choice to go for the second clause. Ref has full discretion on whether its simply a penalty or yellow, presumably depending on the danger he judges.


Rugby needs to be careful not to turn itself into basketball, or have oodles of players off the pitch for periods during every game.

Interested Observer

hogandrew wrote: »

What is the rule regarding getting cited? I taught it was an offense which should have carried a red card.

That is correct yeah. It's never worth a ban, it was not a red at all. I think he should have been binned though.

.ak

Interested Observer wrote: »

I'm not sure he'll break into the Ireland team either in the next two seasons either and I don't think there's any mad rush to get him into the Ireland team, but with all due respect you made those comments I referenced in relation to Leinster, not Ireland.

Respect duly noted, but you are incorrect.

.ak wrote: »

I said a few months ago that'll be at least a season or two before he'll be considered an international and I don't think my opinion has changed there.

With Henshaw, Payne, mccloskey and Fitzgerald there's absolutely no reason to rush him there either.

A few months ago my opinion may have been for Leinster as well, but that was before we lost T'eo and also Madigan, I would've said if T'eo stayed on he'd have kept Ringrose out as himself and Fitzgerald would've started our big games.

Hagz

You also said he'd be murdered in an ECC game.....

I do think you place to much emphasis on bulk .ak. (or whatever descriptor you would prefer to use). Ringrose and Molony, two guys seriously short in that department have coped comfortably with the physical demands of senior rugby. Of course they need to bulk up and they will, but I don't think its as big a handicap as you perhaps do. But it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Interested Observer

.ak wrote: »

Respect duly noted, but you are incorrect.

Sorry what am I incorrect about?

Hopefully he'll be in the team in 2 or 3 years.

You don't want him played on the wing ahead of AIL wingers.

You said these things, in the context of Leinster and not Ireland.

.ak

Interested Observer wrote: »

Sorry what am I incorrect about?

Hopefully he'll be in the team in 2 or 3 years.

You don't want him played on the wing ahead of AIL wingers.

You said these things, in the context of Leinster and not Ireland.

Yeah, I said those things before we lost T'eo, the situation has changed. In this thread I said those things in relation to Ireland. You referenced my previous post in this thread, as quoted above.

Unless we sign someone to replace T'eo....

.ak

Hagz wrote: »

You also said he'd be murdered in an ECC game.....

I do think you place to much emphasis on bulk .ak. (or whatever descriptor you would prefer to use). Ringrose and Molony, two guys seriously short in that department have coped comfortably with the physical demands of senior rugby. Of course they need to bulk up and they will, but I don't think its as big a handicap as you perhaps do. But it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Molony doesn't look small..

And, to be honest, from where I was sitting, Ringrose did get murdered quite a bit in contact, and that's bearing in mind bath wouldn't have a massive back line apart from MB. He runs around players, and that's brilliant, his footwork is sensational, but there's no escaping the fact he can't carry through traffic.

I'm not placing an emphasis on bulk, I'm just saying if we want him to be the next Conrad smith/saviour/whatever then he needs to be the complete player and he needs a bit of size and power to add to that.

Does anyone believe if yesterday wasn't a nothing game that he would've started?

It will come but it won't come overnight.

irishbucsfan

Ringrose absolutely did not get murdered in contact.

Between that and saying Madigan had his best game for Leinster at 10 I have to wonder what you were smoking last night!

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ringrose absolutely did not get murdered in contact.

Between that and saying Madigan had his best game for Leinster at 10 I have to wonder what you were smoking last night!

I'm not sharing it.

.ak

And in fairness how many times did ringrose actually take contact? He steps out of tackles, but anytime he joined a breakdown or got tackled he was noticeably bossed. I'm not sure why people are refusing to acknowledge this. It's not really an issue.

Regarding Madigan at 10, it does sound like I missed most of his errors. I missed the first 20.

Hagz

Molony is a beanpole in fairness.

Do I think Ringrose would have started if it was a nothing game? Probably not. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is the starting 13 for the rest of the Pro 12.