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leinster vs Bath 14th jan 5:30 Rds/sky sports

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    #242
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,200 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Thanks Buer. I, eh, appreciate it????

    My sarcasm clearly wasn't apparent enough as I held the same views as yourself prior to kick off.


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    #243
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Buer wrote: »
    My sarcasm clearly wasn't apparent enough as I held the same views as yourself prior to kick off.

    I was defending the selection but I never saw the performance coming. I suppose I thought Bath would be a lot better than they were.


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    #244
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,200 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Sure even I was defending the selection but I never saw the performance coming. I suppose I thought Bath would be a lot better than they were.

    Indeed. Bath were very poor. We made them poor up front but their cohesion and error count was still very high.

    Just scanning the opinions of their fans and they had two very legitimate gripes that could have impacted the outcome:

    - VDF should have been binned for taking out a supporting player off the ball. Instead just a penalty.
    - Te'o should have been binned for dumping JJ

    20 minutes with 14 men could have seen a very nervy end to that game even if we absolutely deserved the clear win.


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    #245
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Buer wrote: »
    Indeed. Bath were very poor. We made them poor up front but their cohesion and error count was still very high.

    Just scanning the opinions of their fans and they had two very legitimate gripes that could have impacted the outcome:

    - VDF should have been binned for taking out a supporting player off the ball. Instead just a penalty.
    - Te'o should have been binned for dumping JJ

    20 minutes with 14 men could have seen a very nervy end to that game even if we absolutely deserved the clear win.

    Both correct but they also should have had another sin binning when they gave away that penalty on their line after Ringrose' break. Not sure if anyone has pointed that out to them.


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    #246
    Hippo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,879 ✭✭✭Hippo


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Both correct but they also should have had another sin binning when they gave away that penalty on their line after Ringrose' break. Not sure if anyone has pointed that out to them.

    This. JVDF and Ben were both very lucky, but this was missed at a vital time as well.


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    #247
    hogandrew
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭hogandrew


    Buer wrote: »
    Indeed. Bath were very poor. We made them poor up front but their cohesion and error count was still very high.

    Just scanning the opinions of their fans and they had two very legitimate gripes that could have impacted the outcome:

    - VDF should have been binned for taking out a supporting player off the ball. Instead just a penalty.
    - Te'o should have been binned for dumping JJ

    20 minutes with 14 men could have seen a very nervy end to that game even if we absolutely deserved the clear win.

    When vdf tackled the player without the ball, I think it was Cronin got a hand to the pass so it was going to ground and not to the man. My opinion was that it wasn't a yellow because of that.

    Teo never should have given the ref that decision to make and was lucky not to get a yellow but it was a decision that would probably divide most refs. I got the impression that the tmo would have looked for a yellow if he was a stronger personality.


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    #248
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    hogandrew wrote: »
    When vdf tackled the player without the ball, I think it was Cronin got a hand to the pass so it was going to ground and not to the man. My opinion was that it wasn't a yellow because of that.

    Teo never should have given the ref that decision to make and was lucky not to get a yellow but it was a decision that would probably divide most refs. I got the impression that the tmo would have looked for a yellow if he was a stronger personality.

    JVDF a yellow for me.

    What is the case at all for Teo being a yellow?


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    #249
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,065 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    Are there extended highlights anywhere? Saw the Champion's Cup FB highlights but they really only showed the tries.


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    #250
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,200 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    JVDF a yellow for me.

    What is the case at all for Teo being a yellow?

    Lifted a man off the ground and didn't bring him down. JJ landed horizontal but on his shoulder. Yellow all day, for me.


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    #251
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Hippo wrote: »
    This. JVDF and Ben were both very lucky, but this was missed at a vital time as well.

    Honestly if teo is lucky to escape a yellow I'm pretty pissed off with the way things are going in rugby, the ref was right beside it and saw it for what it was in real time which was pretty much nothing, if you have to give a penalty because of what maybe could have happened in an alternate universe because his legs went above parallel I can begrudgingly accept and get over it, but I'd be sick seeing a yellow given for that


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    #252
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,293 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Buer wrote: »
    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    JVDF a yellow for me.

    What is the case at all for Teo being a yellow?

    Lifted a man off the ground and didn't bring him down. JJ landed horizontal but on his shoulder. Yellow all day, for me.

    Not only did he fail to bring him down safely, he actively threw him to the ground. He was incredibly lucky and may be cited in my opinion.


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    #253
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,200 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Not only did he fail to bring him down safely, he actively threw him to the ground. He was incredibly lucky and may be cited in my opinion.

    Yup, you can see he turns his shoulder down to dump him down with force rather than just release him. Possible citing but I suspect he'll be ok given it was reviewed at the time by the TMO and referee.

    The groan from the crowd was clearly audible on television; they knew it was very dodgy.


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    #254
    jack01986
    Registered Users Posts: 863 ✭✭✭jack01986


    jack01986 wrote: »
    Delighted with that win. Anywhere to re watch the game on tv or internet?

    The whole game is on youtube if you search for it.


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    #255
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,200 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Match is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMo2ZOVR1xU

    Series of replays for Te'o incident are at 1 hour 24 minutes. No questions for a yellow card there at all, for me. Very fortunate to get away with it just with a penalty.


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    #256
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Buer wrote: »
    Match is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMo2ZOVR1xU

    Series of replays for Te'o incident are at 1 hour 24 minutes. No questions for a yellow card there at all, for me. Very fortunate to get away with it just with a penalty.

    If Te'o had just let him go when Joseph was in the air, which would allegedly be worse than slamming him back down, JJ would have landed on his neck/shoulder/head and it would be deemed far worse than it was. The fact he brought Joseph's lower half down, albeit violently, pretty much insured Joseph wasnt going to land on his neck or head


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    #257
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    Ringrose was absolutely fine in the physical stakes, he got emptied once after making a pass but that can happen to anyone as you're obviously not braced for the tackle. He was not "peeling himself off the floor" after every contact.

    You need to watch the game again (although realistically it won't show him getting off the deck on TV I imagine) I'm not talking about the hit he took after the ball went; anyone would be struggle after a hit like that. I counted the physio over to him 3-4 times in the second half.

    When he got early ball he scythed through their defence. When he got crap ba he got absolutely creamed and went backwards.

    People need to stop getting so defensive when someone criticises him. I already said I thought he should've got MoTM, all I said is his frame needs more weight on it for this level. I really don't care if he's 90kg, he's a tall lad, that means nothing. Short arse BOD is 88kg iirc.

    Modern day centres need that extra bulk of they intend to have international aspirations. Guys like Fickou and Ringrose will lose out to Basteraud and Henshaw despite being probably more skilled.

    I reckon Ringrose will get there, he's got acne ffs, I'm sure he's a bit of growing to go.


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    #258
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Tox56 wrote: »
    If Te'o had just let him go when Joseph was in the air, which would allegedly be worse than slamming him back down, JJ would have landed on his neck/shoulder/head and it would be deemed far worse than it was. The fact he brought Joseph's lower half down, albeit violently, pretty much insured Joseph wasnt going to land on his neck or head

    Never a yellow for me, he "drops" him about 10 inches from the deck. If he lifted above the horizontal then I'd say yellow.


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    #259
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Also rewatching that match again is ridiculously encouraging, you have these Leinster A players coming through, Tracy, Dooley, Molony, Furlong, McGrath, VdF, Ringrose, and they are so comfortable with the basics, handling the ball at speed, taking the ball at pace and at excellent angles. They are simply bringing the skills theyve been using for years at A level and transferring it to this higher level. Special mention for the front rowers, they're almost like a different species compared to the likes of Ross and Hayes, when Te'o makes that failed break in the midfield before the Bath almost-try, he was supported by Kirchner on his right, and on his left tighthead prop Tadgh Furlong, Tracy was playing like a centre on several occasions too.

    This is the sort of thing you get in New Zealand, they basically perfect these skills from the moment they are born and they are always comfortable taking and handling the ball at speed. Its always said NZ have just perfected the basics, and that is the sort of thing we are getting from the young players coming through now, huge credit to Dempsey and whoever the other Leinster A coaches were over the last few years, and long may it continue


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    #260
    Quint2010
    Registered Users Posts: 5,178 ✭✭✭Quint2010


    .ak wrote: »
    His weakness is his size. He was peeling himself off the deck most of the night, he'll be in bits tomorrow. He needs bulking to play regular at this level. He can't crash ball, for example, and at this level a centre needs to be as to ride the traffic, but he won't always get clean ball.

    Why would we want a 13 to "crash-ball"?


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    #261
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Quint2010 wrote: »
    Why would we want a 13 to "crash-ball"?

    Why wouldn't you? The outside centre isn't just there to pass the ball or arc their run. They need to offer a strike run capability. Both centres need to be able to carry through traffic.

    The idea of having a bosh 12 and a 13 who skirts around contact is a myth. The best centre can do it all.


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    #262
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,972 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    90kg is too light for a midfielder as tall as Ringrose. BOD was heavier and shorter. Some people have compared Ringrose to Conrad Smith and they do have similar builds but Smith has 5 or 6kg on him.

    As others have mentioned, he is young and will grow/develop over the next couple of years. I suppose the question is, should he bulk up drastically in the offseason this year or let it happen over the next couple of years?


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    #263
    aimee1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭aimee1


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    90kg is too light for a midfielder as tall as Ringrose. BOD was heavier and shorter.

    Ringrose needs to bulk up on the BOD diet so .....

    http://c1.thejournal.ie/media/2015/04/bod-57-752x501.jpg


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    #264
    errlloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 12,604 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Ak, perhaps I am one of those defensive posters. He could benefit from being a little heavier. But I don't think it's a reason that he should miss out on selection. (if you get me)


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    #265
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    90kg is too light for a midfielder as tall as Ringrose. BOD was heavier and shorter. Some people have compared Ringrose to Conrad Smith and they do have similar builds but Smith has 5 or 6kg on him.

    As others have mentioned, he is young and will grow/develop over the next couple of years. I suppose the question is, should he bulk up drastically in the offseason this year or let it happen over the next couple of years?

    Lot of talk about size and what not, but the reality is that if Ringrose doesn't get drastically bigger over the next two years it's not a huge problem. He is going to fill out naturally somewhat moving further into his 20's, but mostly he is going to get conditioned to playing against larger, faster units and that conditioning will help him deal with the impacts.

    Technically he will also improve so that his body shape in the tackle or contact area is buffering some of the impact.

    He is obviously working very hard on strength and conditioning which looks to have left him maybe a little lean alright, but an off season and pre season will take care of that.

    Look at the difference between VDF last season and VDF this season. That time off over the summer turned him into an entirely new athlete.

    I agree with .ak in that defensively he looked shook a couple of times defending his channel, but I would say that offensively in traffic he did well. I know he got held up once but in fairness he was able to pivot enough to get forward momentum and when more bodies arrived the maul went in our favor and we got the ball out.

    A couple of times despite heavy traffic he made yards just by being difficult to hold onto. Barnes referred to him as "elusive" and I think this is right. Certainly reminiscent of Conrad Smyth. Joseph had moments like that in last years 6N also.


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    #266
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,562 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    90kg is too light for a midfielder as tall as Ringrose. BOD was heavier and shorter. Some people have compared Ringrose to Conrad Smith and they do have similar builds but Smith has 5 or 6kg on him.

    As others have mentioned, he is young and will grow/develop over the next couple of years. I suppose the question is, should he bulk up drastically in the offseason this year or let it happen over the next couple of years?

    I'd let it happen naturally.

    Too much of a risk of setting him back or even ruining him if you stick him in a gym all summer.


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    #267
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    I really hope they don't try lump a load of weight onto him over the summer, one of his biggest assets is his pace and running, anything that damages that will be a negative imo.


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    #268
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,200 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    .ak wrote: »
    Never a yellow for me, he "drops" him about 10 inches from the deck. If he lifted above the horizontal then I'd say yellow.

    Hold on, so he lifted him clear of the ground, brought him horizontal, aggressively brought him towards the ground ("violently" as Tox, says) and released him before bringing him to ground but it's never a yellow?

    Once you lift a player into the air like that and release him whilst still in the air a yellow should automatically come into consideration.


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    #269
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Ak, perhaps I am one of those defensive posters. He could benefit from being a little heavier. But I don't think it's a reason that he should miss out on selection. (if you get me)

    Not for Leinster maybe, but a big international or big hcup game? I think so. I'd be worried to see him against Toulon for example.

    As yeah_right said he could very much be compared to CS in terms of body shape. That natural conditioning will come. I said a few months ago that'll be at least a season or two before he'll be considered an international and I don't think my opinion has changed there.

    With Henshaw, Payne, mccloskey and Fitzgerald there's absolutely no reason to rush him there either.


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    #270
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Buer wrote: »
    Hold on, so he lifted him clear of the ground, brought him horizontal, aggressively brought him towards the ground ("violently" as Tox, says) and released him before bringing him to ground but it's never a yellow?

    Once you lift a player into the air like that and release him whilst still in the air a yellow should automatically come into consideration.

    Because that law is there to protect players being dropped from a height. How many times do you tackle someone and you lose grip and the fall to deck? If the law was being upheld vehemently then there'd be a lot of yellows being bandied out.

    This looks worse because of the fact he nearly goes beyond the horizontal (but doesn't) and because he aggressively brings him to deck. He slipped out of his grasp for the last few inches but not enough to ever cause any other injury.

    I think it looks worse than it is.


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    #271
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,051 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    .ak wrote: »
    People need to stop getting so defensive when someone criticises him.

    When you say things like hopefully he won't break into the team for 2 more years, or that he shouldn't play on the wing and we should bring in Darragh Fanning instead, then I'm going to disagree with you and if that comes over as defensive then so be it.

    Now it seems like you're just nit-picking tbh. The physio was over to him a few times... so what? SOB got a load of treatment in the 2nd half too.



    Edit - Just on Te'o's tackle, definitely should have been a yellow imo, was really daft.


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