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Why do you hate Irish?

LeinsterDub

Given the other thread it was surprising to the level of hatred for Irish. Having been over in Wales recently the English speakers would generally be apathetic to Welsh. No one seemed to hate it. Why do people hate a language so much?

Cen faith mar is fuair a lán daoine Gaeilge?

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Huntergonzo

kefir32 wrote: »

Coles u sound like the biggest haemorrhoid goin pal

Nah give him a like, the man is clearly a genius

kefir32

Coles u sound like the biggest haemorrhoid goin pal

Huntergonzo

Coles wrote: »

Listen son. Normal adults don't actually say that they 'hate' subjects. Kids say things like that and when they mature into big people they realise their failure was their own fault.

Haha righteo so, whatever you say horsebox :-)

Coles

Huntergonzo wrote: »

@Coles

You don't seem too interested in debate yourself Coles and you don't seem to have a real problem with insults either, I pulled you up on a post earlier and you never got back to me. Here they are if you're still interested:

You:

If you said that you hated History or Geography most people would dismiss you as being an immature schoolchild or an adult with a learning disability. I think the same is true about people who say they 'hate Irish'.

My response:

Ha you see, didn't take long for somebody to get upset. "Most people" is a huge presumption on your behalf btw, how do you know how "most people" on this Island would react???

So anyway what you're telling me is you've never met anybody who wasn't "an immature schoolchild or an adult with a learning disability" say the words, 'I hate x (enter subject)", can't say I believe you Coles, I think you're lying to me!

Listen son. Normal adults don't actually say that they 'hate' subjects. Kids say things like that and when they mature into big people they realise their failure was their own fault.

Coles

Del.Monte wrote: »

Ireland consists of people from many different backgrounds - never more so - and the Irish language is the national language of those who are descended from 'genuine' natives (if there is such a thing). How is the Irish language the national language of the descendants of Norman, Planter, Cromwellian or Williamite stock? I know that it's not PC to hold this view but it's doesn't invalidate it.

Because those lines of your ancestry are extremely diluted now! I'm not saying that to hurt your feelings, but it's true. Of course you can select the line of your ancestry to push to the fore, but you should also be aware of the ancestry that you are choosing to push away from you. If you go back 15 generations (just 300 years) you have 33000 distinct lines of ancestry. It really doesn't matter if you now choose to regard yourself as 'Cromwellian', most of those lines of ancestry spoke Irish!

'Stock'! Lol!

Huntergonzo

@Coles

You don't seem too interested in debate yourself Coles and you don't seem to have a real problem with insults either, I pulled you up on a post earlier and you never got back to me. Here they are if you're still interested:

You:

If you said that you hated History or Geography most people would dismiss you as being an immature schoolchild or an adult with a learning disability. I think the same is true about people who say they 'hate Irish'.

My response:

Ha you see, didn't take long for somebody to get upset. "Most people" is a huge presumption on your behalf btw, how do you know how "most people" on this Island would react???

So anyway what you're telling me is you've never met anybody who wasn't "an immature schoolchild or an adult with a learning disability" say the words, 'I hate x (enter subject)", can't say I believe you Coles, I think you're lying to me!

Coles

@Wibbs, Your standard of debate is very poor. You're like some hysterical auld one lashing out with insults and ignorance.

It's funny, but not very constructive.

I have no interest in debating at that level for the obvious reasons. Calling me a 'Little Irelander' for pointing out that there is a strong correlation between poor academic grades and a hatred for a subject is a bit off. And what does it achieve to say that I have a 'blinkered worldview'. You don't know my 'worldview', and I'm not the one preaching hate and ignorance, the very defining characteristics of a 'blinkered worldview'!

You constantly equate Irishness with negativity and backwardness. It's odd to see that kind of self loathing but to be honest, I can't help you. I can love my heritage and my country while also loving other cultures.

Anyway, less insults. More debate.

ligertigon

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

What is wrong with American English? It's not much different to the version of it we speak in Ireland.

Gaeilge is the name of the language and Irish is just the English language/colloquial name given to it.

Agreed, its just the disingenuous way we proclaim it as ours, unique, no one elses.

The original spelling of the chemical element sulfur, was sulphur (english) the americans used sulfur. The international IUPAC chemical society needed only one version.... they chose sulfur. The original language lost out. However, aluminim was outlawed for aluminium, but the yanks refused.

Iwasfrozen

smurgen wrote: »

it's the very definition of collective achievement.contries do not become great by accident.we are regularly in the top 10 for index of livings.I am happy that I am irish.

Well no. It's more a fluke of geography than colkective achievement of the inhabitants. If Ireland were an island off the coast of Tanzania it would not be such a good place to live Guns Germs and Steel is a very good book on this topic.

Am I supposed to be proud the dice landed in my ancestors favor. Yey I guess?

Huntergonzo

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

It's not about having pride in being born somewhere for that reason alone.

It's about having pride in your surroundings and wanting to make it as good as it can be.

I am sure most people would look unfavorably upon families who would allow their children to go to school poorly clothed or having their house looking in a shabby condition.

The same applies on a larger scale on not wanting the country you live in to be as good as it can be.

Fair enough, I see what you're saying, we all want the best possible society so we can all benefit. We have a good standard of living in Ireland no doubt but I certainly wouldn't be proud of this country given some of our very harsh conservative laws and widespread religious discrimination in our publicly funded schools, in fact I'm ashamed of our country on those fronts.

We have potential but there's a long why to go for this country and anyway I think excessive pride can lead to complacency, there's always something that can be improved.

BTW I'm not sure about looking down unfavourably upon families who allow their children to go to school poorly clothed or having their house looking in a shabby condition. I know on the surface it may look like neglect and quite often it is (which deserves little sympathy for the parents) but also you never really know their circumstances, they may need help rather than judgement!

Caoimhgh1n

ligertigon wrote: »

I hate it because its like American English. The language "Irish" is Gaelic, and spoken in Scotland. Here, we have commondeered it as our own language, and called it Irish. Its not, its Gaelic

Scottish people call it Gàidhlig (Pronounced Gaelic), usually, or so I was told by a Scottish friend of mine.

Irish is Irish.

Dirty Dingus McGee

ligertigon wrote: »

I hate it because its like American English. The language "Irish" is Gaelic, and spoken in Scotland. Here, we have commondeered it as our own language, and called it Irish. Its not, its Gaelic

What is wrong with American English? It's not much different to the version of it we speak in Ireland.

Gaeilge is the name of the language and Irish is just the English language/colloquial name given to it.

ligertigon

I hate it because its like American English. The language "Irish" is Gaelic, and spoken in Scotland. Here, we have commondeered it as our own language, and called it Irish. Its not, its Gaelic

HIB

Del.Monte wrote: »

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Surely, if you bothered to read my post you would have understood what I meant?

Ireland consists of people from many different backgrounds - never more so - and the Irish language is the national language of those who are descended from 'genuine' natives (if there is such a thing). How is the Irish language the national language of the descendants of Norman, Planter, Cromwellian or Williamite stock? I know that it's not PC to hold this view but it's doesn't invalidate it.

And for that matter, the thousands, probably tens of thousands of Irish children born to foreign parents. Eastern Europeans etc.
I suppose the gaelgori would have us believe that to truly identify with the country of their birth, they must know their lioms from their leats and leos.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Fair enough, but any time I hear someone taking out national pride I always laugh and think of this quote:

https://louiseinperson.wordpress.com/2012/12/18/most-enjoyable-george/george-carlin-quote-on-ethnic-and-national-pride/

It's not about having pride in being born somewhere for that reason alone.

It's about having pride in your surroundings and wanting to make it as good as it can be.

I am sure most people would look unfavorably upon families who would allow their children to go to school poorly clothed or having their house looking in a shabby condition.

The same applies on a larger scale on not wanting the country you live in to be as good as it can be.

kefir32

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Somebody ignorantly spoke on behalf of the entire country, and I was telling him he was incorrect. How is that fighting? Is that all you want to do, win, for your ego?

You are incorrect !!!Ego ? Wrong!!!!!!!!! Pragmatic yes!!!!!!!!

ToddyDoody

LeinsterDub wrote: »

More needs to be said because that post means nothing. What is it you think my username is implying about Irish?

I'm sure this has changed a bit in the last while but generally the perception has been that no-one in Dublin has any time for Gaeilge.

smurgen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's certainly one of the best countries in the world but that's hardly a personal achievement you can feel pride in is it? It's not even an achievement of the Irish people collectively.

it's the very definition of collective achievement.contries do not become great by accident.we are regularly in the top 10 for index of livings.I am happy that I am irish.

Huntergonzo

smurgen wrote: »

I'm not insecure of my achievements buy I'm proud of Ireland.it's one of the best countries in the world and anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know a lot about the world.

Ah in fairness it's a bit of a conservative kip, also I'm appalled by the lack of burrito bars around, had to leave the farm yesterday and head for the big schmoke to get one, there should be one on every street corner!

Iwasfrozen

smurgen wrote: »

I'm not insecure of my achievements buy I'm proud of Ireland.it's one of the best countries in the world and anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know a lot about the world.

It's certainly one of the best countries in the world but that's hardly a personal achievement you can feel pride in is it? It's not even an achievement of the Irish people collectively.

Caoimhgh1n

kefir32 wrote: »

Fighting a losing battle champ

Somebody ignorantly spoke on behalf of the entire country, and I was telling him he was incorrect. How is that fighting? Is that all you want to do, win, for your ego?

smurgen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Some people are insecure about their own achievements and need to feel a part of the achievements of others. That's really what "national pride" is about.

I'm not insecure of my achievements buy I'm proud of Ireland.it's one of the best countries in the world and anyone who thinks otherwise doesn't know a lot about the world.

Iwasfrozen

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Fair enough, but any time I hear someone taking out national pride I always laugh and think of this quote:

https://louiseinperson.wordpress.com/2012/12/18/most-enjoyable-george/george-carlin-quote-on-ethnic-and-national-pride/

Some people are insecure about their own achievements and need to feel a part of the achievements of others. That's really what "national pride" is about.

Iwasfrozen

mansize wrote: »

In your mind alone

Nooo, that's pretty much the lay of the land.

mansize

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To call Irish a dieing and useless language is to call a spade a spade. Yes I'm blunt but I'm also correct.

In your mind alone

Huntergonzo

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

No I'm saying in general it's good for a country for the citizens to have a sense of pride in the country in general.

Fair enough, but any time I hear someone taking out national pride I always laugh and think of this quote:

https://louiseinperson.wordpress.com/2012/12/18/most-enjoyable-george/george-carlin-quote-on-ethnic-and-national-pride/

Huntergonzo

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Okay some fair points. It is probably impractical if my suggestion of all primary schools being Gaelscoils were to come true, but I don't see what harm would come of it, I don't think grades would suffer and I think it would make us as a nation better with languages in the long term. It might not be a good enough reason to enforce this obviously, but if the government did want to truly revive the Irish language I think that would be the most effective way of doing so.

Again I have no problem with people wanting to learn languages (including Irish), in fact some people have a real skill for it and I actually admire that, one of my sister's mate's can speak something 10 or 12 languages fluently (but she's an exceptional case and she's made a career out of it).

Also in fairness I don't think it's really up to the government to decide to revive the language, they're supposed to reflect the will of the people on such issues (except for in circumstances of human rights of course, no amount of will should deny someone their human rights) and I don't see a huge amount of interest in it's revival, bit of talk here and there yes but nothing on a mass scale.

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

There are more practical languages we could learn of course, but sure wouldn't it be more practical if everyone in the world just learned English? (not exactly a fair comparison I know..)

I think it would actually be very practical if we all had a common language (not necessarily English) but that's not likely to happen any time soon and you can't force these things on people.

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Whenever I am communicating with someone from another country I do think it's a shame that they often have two or three languages while most Irish people only have one. I have found people to react very well to when I speak Irish to them as a lot of them aren't even aware that we have our own language.

I agree, as a rule English speaking countries tend to be very bad at second languages and it's a bit of a shame but circumstances has worked in our favour because English is a sort of universal second language, so there's no great necessity for us to learn a second language.

Ps, I also use a bit of Irish here and there when abroad, comes in great with the local cailíní

Ferris_Bueller

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

The question I asked still stands: why change something that works fine for something that makes the lanaguge a priority ahead of the kids and their education?

And this "sense of pride" question is bogus - let the kids decide what they like and don't like. Let them express themselves.

Because in your scenario, your forcing them to express you (or the state), and you don't have the right to do that.

How would it effect the kids and their education? I don't think it would effect their education at all, if anything I would guess it would only further their education. Maybe as some of you are saying it isn't worth the hassle of trying to revive the language to the majority, and for this reason it will probably never happen, but to say it would effect their education is untrue.

Also, would the state not have a right to do that? At the moment Irish is compulsory in schools so they are already 'forcing them' to learn it.. If I stated they don't have a right to force my kids to speak English would I have a leg to stand on?

kefir32

Caoimhgh1n wrote: »

Incorrect.

Fighting a losing battle champ

Caoimhgh1n

kefir32 wrote: »

yeah its just you

Incorrect.