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Events Centre

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    #152
    Jimmy Bottles
    Registered Users Posts: 345 ✭✭Jimmy Bottles


    Michael.. wrote: »
    It's definitely progressing. I past the site today and there was a good few Bam workers there fixing up the site offices / containers. I don't think they'd be any where near the place if contracts and the rest of the issues weren't signed and sealed.

    As others have said, these are most likely site offices for The Capitol development.

    The first sign of any actual work would be Loftus demolition on site.


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    #153
    mire
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭mire


    Jimmy Bottles wrote: »
    As others have said, these are most likely site offices for The Capitol development.

    The first sign of any actual work would be Loftus demolition on site.

    This project has been evolving for about 5 years - from planning applications, project inception, funding applications, the site selection competition and negotiation, contractual and funding applications, and more recently final contracts and the appointments process. Work on site is about to commence; this is a major achievement - how can people say that there is no progress? There is a sense of shifting goalposts in the way some people are offering criticism here.


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    #154
    Cape Clear
    Registered Users Posts: 2,599 ✭✭✭Cape Clear


    mire wrote: »
    This project has been evolving for about 5 years - from planning applications, project inception, funding applications, the site selection competition and negotiation, contractual and funding applications, and more recently final contracts and the appointments process. Work on site is about to commence; this is a major achievement - how can people say that there is no progress? There is a sense of shifting goalposts in the way some people are offering criticism here.

    5 years and ground still hasn't been broken too bloody long in my view. Nothing has been achieved until it is built and operating. It will be interesting to see just how much the budget over run on this project will be.


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    #155
    mire
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭mire


    Cape Clear wrote: »
    5 years and ground still hasn't been broken too bloody long in my view. Nothing has been achieved until it is built and operating. It will be interesting to see just how much the budget over run on this project will be.

    Sorry, but large scale and complex projects usually take a long time. That is a trait of major multi party urban projects. The challenge is to do it right. Doing it quickly is much less important.


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    #156
    Cape Clear
    Registered Users Posts: 2,599 ✭✭✭Cape Clear


    mire wrote: »
    Sorry, but large scale and complex projects usually take a long time. That is a trait of major multi party urban projects. The challenge is to do it right. Doing it quickly is much less important.

    This has taken far too long and no guarantee it has been done right either time will only tell. Are there any figures available on what has been spent on the project to date?


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    #157
    Jimmy Bottles
    Registered Users Posts: 345 ✭✭Jimmy Bottles


    mire wrote: »
    Sorry, but large scale and complex projects usually take a long time. That is a trait of major multi party urban projects. The challenge is to do it right. Doing it quickly is much less important.

    Projects most certainly don't take this long. The reason there is a hold up is because Live Nation are unsure that this place can be profitable at all.

    It's clearly a huge issue as they still haven't signed off on it.


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    #158
    ofcork
    Registered Users Posts: 5,354 ✭✭✭ofcork


    Is this correct as i thought live nation had signed off as that was the last hold up.


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    #159
    moyners
    Registered Users Posts: 315 ✭✭moyners


    I just passed there and there's definitely more going on than just site offices. They seem to be stripping stuff out of the sheds to the right of the counting house.


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    #160
    mire
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭mire


    Jimmy Bottles wrote: »
    Projects most certainly don't take this long. The reason there is a hold up is because Live Nation are unsure that this place can be profitable at all.

    It's clearly a huge issue as they still haven't signed off on it.

    I'm sorry, but large projects of this nature regularly take an age. You're wrong to think that Cork's experience with its event centre is unusually slow. It's not. Look up Leeds, Liverpool just as a start. These public private ventures are usually very slow.

    It is a very complex project, particularly considering the number of parties involved, from funding to management. The funding model alone is very complicated, in that approximately 5 different interests are being asked to support the project, The State, the City Council, BAM, Heineken and Live Nation. Within that list there are multiple financial interests like banks, funding agencies, capital funds etc. The commercial dimensions of this project are not straightforward; event centres are usually not viable financially, and this is where the public funding and ancillary development becomes important. The delay has been frustrating but to be expected, and had to do with the operator holding out for as much as possible.

    My understanding is that the operator has in fact signed contracts and that there is sufficient certainty now. I'm not aware of any new developments, unless you know of any?


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    #161
    flo8s967qjh0nd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭flo8s967qjh0nd


    mire wrote: »
    There is a sense of shifting goalposts in the way some people are offering criticism here.

    There is a sense of shifting goalposts in the way we have been repeatedly been given deadlines and start dates for this project. None of which have yet been met.


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    #162
    flo8s967qjh0nd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭flo8s967qjh0nd


    mire wrote: »
    The challenge is to do it right. Doing it quickly is much less important.

    For the record, I doubt this has been done right from the start. It's the wrong locaton for an event centre for a variety of reasons which I won't repeat here again. That being said, it just needs to get built now.


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    #163
    P.lane78
    Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭P.lane78


    Nancy Unkempt Shop wrote: »
    There is a sense of shifting goalposts in the way we have been repeatedly been given deadlines and start dates for this project. None of which have yet been met.

    I agree...just look at the speed of the other projects that are progressing such as the capitol and the recently completed one albert quay, no messing about there. Its being a while since Enda and the boys turned the sod and nothing has progressed really.


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    #164
    mire
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭mire


    Nancy Unkempt Shop wrote: »
    For the record, I doubt this has been done right from the start. It's the wrong locaton for an event centre for a variety of reasons which I won't repeat here again. That being said, it just needs to get built now.

    nonsense. it's absolutely the right location. in so many ways.


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    #165
    mire
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭mire


    P.lane78 wrote: »
    I agree...just look at the speed of the other projects that are progressing such as the capitol and the recently completed one albert quay, no messing about there. Its being a while since Enda and the boys turned the sod and nothing has progressed really.

    comparing the event centre project to a regular straightforward commercial scheme is simply not valid. compare it to a similar project and do a fair comparison.


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    #166
    P.lane78
    Registered Users Posts: 470 ✭✭P.lane78


    mire wrote: »
    comparing the event centre project to a regular straightforward commercial scheme is simply not valid. compare it to a similar project and do a fair comparison.

    I think its a fair comparison ...both are 50 to 60 million euro developments, Bam are involved in both. In the end of the day both are straightforward commercial schemes as you say, which will have to pay there way in the world. If you are implying the event centre is some sort of civic amenity special project then i think you are mistaken. In the end of the day its just a big hall Granted the involvment of state money, state bodies and eager to look good politicians must be very annoying and the speed the public sector work at can be painfully slow. Just look at it this way, the Enda and Simon roadshow turned the sod on both the events centre and Capitol on the same day. Look at how each is progressing!!


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    #167
    flo8s967qjh0nd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭flo8s967qjh0nd


    mire wrote: »
    nonsense. it's absolutely the right location. in so many ways.

    There are positives and negatives to the location. We'll have to agree to disagree.


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    #168
    kub
    Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    P.lane78 wrote: »
    I agree...just look at the speed of the other projects that are progressing such as the capitol and the recently completed one albert quay, no messing about there. Its being a while since Enda and the boys turned the sod and nothing has progressed really.

    Bam have both contracts, as a major construction company they employ sub contractors. For whatever reason, they started on The Capitol first. Who started on site? Loftus demolition, recent pictures have shown they are almost complete in doing what they do.
    It has been mentioned here already and indeed in the media that Bam are hoping to start on The Beamish site after Easter, so my reckoning is that once Loftus are finished on The Grand Parade, their machines and men will be over to South Main St to carry on their good work.


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    #169
    mire
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭mire


    P.lane78 wrote: »
    I think its a fair comparison ...both are 50 to 60 million euro developments, Bam are involved in both. In the end of the day both are straightforward commercial schemes as you say, which will have to pay there way in the world. If you are implying the event centre is some sort of civic amenity special project then i think you are mistaken. In the end of the day its just a big hall Granted the involvment of state money, state bodies and eager to look good politicians must be very annoying and the speed the public sector work at can be painfully slow. Just look at it this way, the Enda and Simon roadshow turned the sod on both the events centre and Capitol on the same day. Look at how each is progressing!!

    That you suggest that the Capitol and the Event Centre are comparable and that you think both are 'straightforward commercial schemes' indicates a fairly major misunderstanding of development. Also, from your post, I don't think you know what the event centre project is actually about. It is in fact a 'civic project', do you know that it being subsidised to the tune of 40%? That is not a normal commercial project.

    The two projects are entirely different. In every respect. The Capitol is being pursued as a privately funded scheme with a single developer. The Event Centre is a multi party public-private partnership. One is a retail/office scheme. The other is for a public event/conference facility/bar/restaurant/museum/retail/residential development.

    One is private, the other is 40% public and 60% private. Very different.

    Anyway, clarifications aside, I do hope to see demolition and construction commence very soon. It probably won't prevent the continued negativity but it'll be a very important development. It will transform this part of the city. If it takes a long time, so be it. Doing it right is much, much more important than doing it quickly.


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    #170
    mire
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭mire


    Nancy Unkempt Shop wrote: »
    There are positives and negatives to the location. We'll have to agree to disagree.

    What are the negatives?


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    #171
    H8GHOTI
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭H8GHOTI


    mire wrote: »
    ...The two projects are entirely different. In every respect. The Capitol is being pursued as a privately funded scheme with a single developer. The Event Centre is a multi party public-private partnership. One is a retail/office scheme. The other is for a public event/conference facility/bar/restaurant/museum/retail/residential development.

    One is private, the other is 40% public and 60% private. Very different...

    This is true & it's a good point. However, I would have thought that any issues with the government would be sorted out before the contract was awarded. Once the decision was made, I think people expected work to start sooner.

    Also, wasn't it part of the BAM bid that Live Nation were on board? Why then after they won, we're hearing stories that they might not be 100% behind the project? Can't blame people really for being a bit suspicious about it.

    Anyway, things are looking more positive now. It will be great once finished. Looking forward to seeing it complete.


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    #172
    flo8s967qjh0nd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭flo8s967qjh0nd


    mire wrote: »
    What are the negatives?

    Well, since you've asked...
    Despite the best hopes of the developers, I would be pretty sure that developing this alongside a one-way, medieval road network will create traffic chaos along the North/South Main Street spine and surroundings. On an event evening, if only a couple of percent of patrons decide to get their Mum to drop them off on South MS, it will snare up an already clogged system.
    I think the effect on the protected view of the cathedral from South Gate Bridge will be negative.
    On a positive note, if it is the catalyst for full development o his site, it will have done the city some service.


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    #173
    mire
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭mire


    So, the event centre will create traffic problems ('chaos') and should therefore be located away from the city centre. That's just illogical. Firstly, how bad are south main street's evening and night time traffic problems? Really? It has none. It's a largely derelict area. Secondly, people don't expect to drive and park at events, see the Three arena Dublin, any city centre venue in the world, even Cork opera house; who actually expects and wants to drive to every gig they go to. Its simply another addition to the city centre offer, which cannot, and should not, be justified on the basis of providing additional transport or parking provision. In the same way that the new Capitol scheme will add hundreds of jobs and lots of new retail floorspace without any additional parking or roads infrastructure being provided. Thirdly, locating an arena like this is a less central location would actually generate more traffic issues as it will reduce the amount of patrons travelling by public transport/on foot and reduce overall accessibility levels. Fourth, what's really wrong with city centre traffic congestion once a week in the city centre when there is an event?? It might just be a sign of something happening; this is what happens when you have a busy place. It's usually a positive indicator of a city centre's health.

    On the view from South Gate Bridge, I agree that the view of the Cathedral will be affected, but that doesn't mean that it is a negative impact, IMO. There is another view worth considering from that same vantage point, and that is the view north through the historic centre from the bridge, which is of the site itself. This is probably Ireland's most blighted urban district in terms of the scale and impact of dereliction, physical quality, vacancy. It's like a bomb site, and is a real black mark on the city. This development will help to address some of that. Although the Citi park is equally bad.


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    #174
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,068 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    mire wrote: »
    So, the event centre will create traffic problems ('chaos') and should therefore be located away from the city centre. That's just illogical. Firstly, how bad are south main street's evening and night time traffic problems? Really? It has none. It's a largely derelict area. Secondly, people don't expect to drive and park at events, see the Three arena Dublin, any city centre venue in the world, even Cork opera house; who actually expects and wants to drive to every gig they go to. Its simply another addition to the city centre offer, which cannot, and should not, be justified on the basis of providing additional transport or parking provision. In the same way that the new Capitol scheme will add hundreds of jobs and lots of new retail floorspace without any additional parking or roads infrastructure being provided. Thirdly, locating an arena like this is a less central location would actually generate more traffic issues as it will reduce the amount of patrons travelling by public transport/on foot and reduce overall accessibility levels. Fourth, what's really wrong with city centre traffic congestion once a week in the city centre when there is an event?? It might just be a sign of something happening; this is what happens when you have a busy place. It's usually a positive indicator of a city centre's health.

    On the view from South Gate Bridge, I agree that the view of the Cathedral will be affected, but that doesn't mean that it is a negative impact, IMO. There is another view worth considering from that same vantage point, and that is the view north through the historic centre from the bridge, which is of the site itself. This is probably Ireland's most blighted urban district in terms of the scale and impact of dereliction, physical quality, vacancy. It's like a bomb site, and is a real black mark on the city. This development will help to address some of that. Although the Citi park is equally bad.

    The comparison to the Three Arena is way off in fairness. That has a high capacity Luas line at it's front door. Hardly comparable to the situation in Cork. Opera House is also incomparable - large difference in the capacity of the two venues.


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    #175
    mire
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭mire


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    The comparison to the Three Arena is way off in fairness. That has a high capacity Luas line at it's front door. Hardly comparable to the situation in Cork. Opera House is also incomparable - large difference in the capacity of the two venues.

    The comparison is entirely valid - it is the principle of the suitability of locating large scale event facilities in city centres. Who drives to the three arena? Who drives to the Opera House? Nobody is the answer. They drive part of the way, park and walk/use public transport. This is how the Event Centre will be used. I don't see how its location is seen as a negative, when it is in fact, one of its major advantages.


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    #176
    D'Agger
    Registered Users Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭D'Agger


    With regard to the traffic congesion expected - I'd imagine that a park and ride solution along with a taxi rank will be provided, along with public transport being available

    Whilst I'm not offering locations on these, you'd imagine these are three measures that should decrease traffic congestion, whilst not completely eradicating it


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    #177
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,068 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    mire wrote: »
    The comparison is entirely valid - it is the principle of the suitability of locating large scale event facilities in city centres. Who drives to the three arena? Who drives to the Opera House? Nobody is the answer. They drive part of the way, park and walk/use public transport. This is how the Event Centre will be used. I don't see how its location is seen as a negative, when it is in fact, one of its major advantages.

    Nobody drives to the Opera House? Seriously nobody? I must be the only one so. Went to the Panto over Xmas. Got a space on Pope's Quay. Guess I was the only one who drove eh?


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    #178
    FrStone
    Registered Users Posts: 720 ✭✭✭FrStone


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Nobody drives to the Opera House? Seriously nobody? I must be the only one so. Went to the Panto over Xmas. Got a space on Pope's Quay. Guess I was the only one who drove eh?

    The majority drive to the opera house. The queue to get out of paul street car park is manic after a show.


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    #179
    flo8s967qjh0nd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭flo8s967qjh0nd


    mire wrote: »
    Firstly, how bad are south main street's evening and night time traffic problems? Really? It has none.
    Evening traffic in the area is a serious problem. It can take 15-20 minutes to drive through this relatively short stretch in the evening. My issue is what effect extra traffic will have on this problem.

    mire wrote: »
    It has none. It's a largely derelict area.
    That's a pretty unfair assessment given the number of small businesses in the area trying their best. The place badly needs some work but to describe is as 'largely derelict' is bordering on the offensive.

    As regards, some of your other points, no, I do not expect that all patrons will expect to park at the event centre and that was not the point I was making. I was suggesting that those not parking there but being delivered there by public transport, taxis, friends, parents, rickshaw(?) will be contributing to and also being caught up in this evening traffic mess. Anybody walking past a school at closing time will get the idea. You can (and should) provide all the public transport you want, but ultimately a percentage of people will take the private option.
    mire wrote: »
    Fourth, what's really wrong with city centre traffic congestion once a week in the city centre when there is an event??
    The plans are for 3-4 events a week. Lots of people live and work in the area or travel through there to return home. You may not but others have to.


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    #180
    j8wk2feszrnpao
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭j8wk2feszrnpao


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Nobody drives to the Opera House? Seriously nobody? I must be the only one so. Went to the Panto over Xmas. Got a space on Pope's Quay. Guess I was the only one who drove eh?
    Agreed, I also parked on Pope's Quay directly opposite the Opera House for Jimmy Carr. It was more or less the same spot as the previous year.

    Parking shouldn't be an issue for the Events Centre. People should be able to stream out in multiple directions, access nearby (even a 10-15min walk isn't much) parking locations, give priority to public transport links, and ensure it's properly policed by the Gardaí.


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    #181
    mire
    Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭mire


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Nobody drives to the Opera House? Seriously nobody? I must be the only one so. Went to the Panto over Xmas. Got a space on Pope's Quay. Guess I was the only one who drove eh?

    That's exactly my point. You don't drive to the Opera House. You drive to somewhere else and walk. The Opera House has no parking.


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