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I hate the M50 [Warning post #222]

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    #752
    HeidiHeidi
    Registered Users Posts: 28,930 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    Ultimately, they should stop, and not force their way in.

    Vehicles in the driving lane should enable vehicles to merge, but if they don't, the onus is on the vehicle merging to stop/ give way, not force their way in.

    Very rare in Ireland that any one uses the full slip to get up to speed to merge seamlessly anyway, but that's a different issue...
    And when the next truck comes along?

    And the one after that?


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    #753
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    Ultimately, they should stop, and not force their way in.

    Vehicles in the driving lane should enable vehicles to merge, but if they don't, the onus is on the vehicle merging to stop/ give way, not force their way in.

    Very rare in Ireland that any one uses the full slip to get up to speed to merge seamlessly anyway, but that's a different issue...

    The obligation is clear as you state, but it's not practical as you mention in your closing line.

    If someone has to come to a stop at the end of the merging lane, it'll be even harder to try and build up speed to match traffic. (granted I understand they'll be to use the hard shoulder as an extended merge) It just seems like it's setup to fail, if there's no need for us to try to accommodate each other.


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    #754
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,148 ✭✭✭plodder


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    It is clear cut. Onus is on the vehicle joining to give way, regardless of the behaviour of those in the driving lane.
    Really? Even if there is a reasonable gap, but the driver in the driving lane tries to close it, and rear-ends the person joining?


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    #755
    shootermacg
    Registered Users Posts: 4,836 ✭✭✭shootermacg


    plodder wrote: »
    Really? Even if there is a reasonable gap, but the driver in the driving lane tries to close it, and rear-ends the person joining?

    Its a crazy situation, you need to get up to speed to join, and what happens if you run out of slip road?


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    #756
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    shootermacg wrote: »
    Its a crazy situation, you need to get up to speed to join, and what happens if you run out of slip road?
    You then stop until it is safe to proceed.
    Unlike what someone said, you may not use the hard shoulder as this is a penalty point offence.

    However the rules are intended for a normally flowing motorway. A congested mess like the N4/M50S in the morning can be an exception to this where a dose of common sense is required.


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    #757
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    kbannon wrote: »
    You then stop until it is safe to proceed.
    Unlike what someone said, you may not use the hard shoulder as this is a penalty point offence.

    However the rules are intended for a normally flowing motorway. A congested mess like the N4/M50S in the morning can be an exception to this where a dose of common sense is required.

    If you've come to a stop at the end of the merge lane, there is no other means to build up speed.


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    #758
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    If you've come to a stop at the end of the merge lane, there is no other means to build up speed.
    True, but them's the rules!
    Have you another suggestion apart from either barging your way in (possibly dangerously), driving on a restricted area of the motorway or stopping)?


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    #759
    Dravokivich
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    kbannon wrote: »
    True, but them's the rules!
    Have you another suggestion apart from either barging your way in (possibly dangerously), driving on a restricted area of the motorway or stopping)?

    I've never suggested barging, so I'm not sure why you're presenting that first.

    The safest option is the best to take. If someone looks to ping me for it, I'll put forward my reasons to challenge it.


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    #760
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    kbannon wrote: »
    You then stop until it is safe to proceed.
    Unlike what someone said, you may not use the hard shoulder as this is a penalty point offence.

    However the rules are intended for a normally flowing motorway. A congested mess like the N4/M50S in the morning can be an exception to this where a dose of common sense is required.


    I find it worrying that employing common sense is seen as an exception. Probably explains the crap driving on our roads.
    Dravokivich wrote: »
    If you've come to a stop at the end of the merge lane, there is no other means to build up speed.

    If you are stopped you are allowed to use the hard shoulder to build up speed.


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    #761
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    I've never suggested barging, so I'm not sure why you're presenting that first.
    I had to present something first. It was not an attempt to point fingers or anything!
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I find it worrying that employing common sense is seen as an exception. Probably explains the crap driving on our roads.
    If you look at my post (#756) you will see that I have mentioned using common sense!
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    If you are stopped you are allowed to use the hard shoulder to build up speed.
    Grand, and I'm not doubting you, but under which Act is this in? Does it also exempt drivers from the "driving in the HS attracts penalty points" rule?


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    #762
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    kbannon wrote: »
    I had to present something first. It was not an attempt to point fingers or anything!


    If you look at my post (#756) you will see that I have mentioned using common sense!


    Grand, and I'm not doubting you, but under which Act is this in? Does it also exempt drivers from the "driving in the HS attracts penalty points" rule?


    http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/motorway_driving.pdf

    Page 10.


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    #763
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/motorway_driving.pdf

    Page 10.
    Firstly, that is not an Act. It is an advisory document.

    However, it says on page 10:
    RSA wrote:
    Before you rejoin the motorway after a breakdown, build up your speed on the hard shoulder before merging into traffic. Be aware that other vehicles may have stopped on the hard shoulder.
    We're not talking about rejoining the motorway following a breakdown!
    In fact, on page 6 it says:
    RSA wrote:
    You must not drive on the hard shoulder as it is a motoring offence to do so and you could get penalty points.


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    #764
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,260 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    kbannon wrote: »
    Firstly, that is not an Act. It is an advisory document.

    Feel free to look up the relevant SIs.
    kbannon wrote: »

    However, it says on page 10:

    We're not talking about rejoining the motorway following a breakdown!
    In fact, on page 6 it says:

    If you are stopped in the hard shoulder because you cannot join the motorway how is that any to difference to being stopped because of a breakdown? Do you think you should just pull straight out without building up speed? Do you think that nobody has thought of this situation before and legislated accordingly? So much for using common sense.


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    #765
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,148 ✭✭✭plodder


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    I find it worrying that employing common sense is seen as an exception.
    I'm not sure that is the case. There is an explicit offense now of "driving without reasonable consideration". It's a much lower bar than careless or dangerous driving. Some of the examples I mentioned above might come under that category. I recall a conviction a couple of years ago of a farmer who caused a huge tailback by driving at 20km/h (hardly dangerous or careless) but got banned for a year iirc.

    That doesn't mean you can just barge your way into a lane of traffic, but neither does it mean you can assert an absolute right to the piece of road in front of you. As some roads become busier and busier, I think we're going to see more attention on finer details like this.


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    #766
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Feel free to look up the relevant SIs.
    You stated that "you are allowed to use the hard shoulder to build up speed". I now have to research whether or not your claims is true?
    Traditionally, in debating the onus is on you to back up your claims!
    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    If you are stopped in the hard shoulder because you cannot join the motorway how is that any to difference to being stopped because of a breakdown? Do you think you should just pull straight out without building up speed? Do you think that nobody has thought of this situation before and legislated accordingly? So much for using common sense.
    Being in the HS because you could not merge is different from being there because of a fault that occurred with your vehicle. if you need to ask how it is different then going any further is pointless.
    If you cannot merge safely then you do not drive into the HS, you stay in the slip road - you do not cross the yellow line! Moving into the HS in the event of a brakdown is allowed so as to help prevent a collision. By stopping in the slip road, you are not going to cause a collision, are you?


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    #767
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,296 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    Ultimately, they should stop, and not force their way in.

    Vehicles in the driving lane should enable vehicles to merge, but if they don't, the onus is on the vehicle merging to stop/ give way, not force their way in.

    Very rare in Ireland that any one uses the full slip to get up to speed to merge seamlessly anyway, but that's a different issue...

    Stop? And then what?


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    #768
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,858 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    According to AA, the M7 northbound from the M9 junction northwards was jammed up at 630am this morning. New record.


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    #769
    irlirishkev
    Registered Users Posts: 2,503 ✭✭✭irlirishkev


    My disbelief at not being able to merge safely was more to do with the fact that there are so many morons out there quite happy to tailgate the car in front in such sh*tty conditions. It drives me bonkers thinking of the potential carnarge that would ensue should someone lose control.


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    #770
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    If the NRA hadn't build tiny short merging lanes when they were widening the m50, this wouldn't be an issue
    The original spin was that every onramp would have the full length of the Auxiliary lane to merge, but we ended up with some merge lanes shorter than a 45' container and cab


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    #771
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    If the NRA hadn't build tiny short merging lanes when they were widening the m50, this wouldn't be an issue
    The original spin was that every onramp would have the full length of the Auxiliary lane to merge, but we ended up with some merge lanes shorter than a 45' container and cab
    Probablt down to some who clown decided to create a "suicide merge" (as described above) instead of merging the two inbound lanes into the auxiliary lane, something they're finally doing now.

    I wonder how many were killed by that original design. :mad:


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    #772
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,344 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kbannon wrote: »
    You stated that "you are allowed to use the hard shoulder to build up speed". I now have to research whether or not your claims is true?
    Traditionally, in debating the onus is on you to back up your claims!


    Being in the HS because you could not merge is different from being there because of a fault that occurred with your vehicle. if you need to ask how it is different then going any further is pointless.
    If you cannot merge safely then you do not drive into the HS, you stay in the slip road - you do not cross the yellow line! Moving into the HS in the event of a brakdown is allowed so as to help prevent a collision. By stopping in the slip road, you are not going to cause a collision, are you?


    Personally I drive straight into the hard-shoulder to continue if i can't merge correctly on a motorway. I've only ever had to do it one time, admittedly, but I would always do that instead of coming to a complete stop.


    As an aside, I have two experiences of An Garda Siochana encouraging a vehicle to speed up when in the hard shoulder before merging with traffic.

    One is a personal experience where a car i was a passenger in was pulled by AGS (can't remember why, but it turned out to be a non-issue) and the Garda told him (driver) to build up speed before attempting to join traffic.

    The other experience is less personal, as it was in a TV show. I think Traffic Blues. A garda pulls a car and then tells the driver that she needs to build up speed before joining traffic (in the same clip, she doesn't, and causes a lot of sudden braking, which the Garda gives a bollocking for).


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    #773
    ChikiChiki
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    M50 is at breaking point. 4th day in a row there's been an accident on it at morning rush.


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    #774
    shar01
    Registered Users Posts: 817 ✭✭✭shar01


    I must sound like a broken record but tailgating needs to be tackled. The electronic overhead signs tell us when the road is wet. No sh1t Sherlock! How about using them to tell the morons to back the fcuk off!


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    #775
    NufcNavan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,832 ✭✭✭NufcNavan


    Traffic was brutal in D15 this morning. Presume it must have been a knock on effect of heavy traffic on M50.


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    #776
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    ChikiChiki wrote: »
    M50 is at breaking point. 4th day in a row there's been an accident on it at morning rush.

    Three between blanch and red cow, took me two hours fifteen to get from swords to inchicore


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    #777
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,057 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    shar01 wrote: »
    I must sound like a broken record but tailgating needs to be tackled. The electronic overhead signs tell us when the road is wet. No sh1t Sherlock! How about using them to tell the morons to back the fcuk off!
    Tailgating is often (but not always) a result of others not using their mirrors or just not giving a toss about how their driving affects others. This needs to be tackled at the same time.

    The only way to improve the congestion is to remove the volume.
    I presume that they will introduction tolling along the entire road before realising that there would be little improvement.
    As I said before, the only way to lighten the load is for people to willingly choose to leave the car at home and use public transport, cycle or walk.
    However both the public transport and cycling options need massive investment first to make them a realistic option for many. This financial decision will take many years in this country though!


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    #778
    Roadhawk
    Registered Users Posts: 935 ✭✭✭Roadhawk


    How inconsiderate...these people crashing on the M50 and ruining it for the rest of us.


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    #779
    TheDoc
    Registered Users Posts: 23,137 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    Roadhawk wrote: »
    How inconsiderate...these people crashing on the M50 and ruining it for the rest of us.

    Of the opinion your a moron if you cause a crash on a motorway, the easiest road to drive on.

    At some point it would be nice to see people who cause these crashes, through utter negligence, to serve a short ban from driving or be barred from motorway driving.

    This morning was absolutely brutal and as said previously about the 4th day in a row now


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    #780
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #781
    Pinch Flat
    Registered Users Posts: 7,761 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    It's pretty obvious that driving in the M50 is beyond the competencies of most drivers - other countries have heavy traffic on similar roads but not the daily mayhem we see here. Couple of observations from driving on this road:

    Tailgating - this is a huge issue. People drive in your back seat, so any sudden stops can lead to pile ups very easily.

    Merging - because everyone drives to protect the space in front of their bonnet like their life depends on it, common sense doesn't prevail. So when the road is backed up, people trying to merge are not alllowed to do so - I know there's no obligation to allow someone merge, but sometimes it's the sensible and mature way to deal with these situations. People doggedly protecting the space in from of their Bonnet leads to people merging taking chances. Because of the tailgating issue above, any sodden stop can cause a pile up.

    Lane swapping and in the wrong lane - lane discipline is almost absent - so people think darting left and right is going to transform their morning commute, whereas it saves a few seconds in reality. This causes sudden braking and the issues with tailgating become evident very quickly.

    Overall I think our driving style here is quite immature and defensive and people take irresponsible risks for apparent little gain. If people chilled out a bit and used the road responsibly, we might go someday to helping what must be a daily nightmare at this stage.


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