Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

Coillte_Bhoy

mayo.mick wrote: »

Don't believe a word from that "journo". Been know for writing "suspect articles"

What journo? There is no by line

keith16

Neary sounds like an absolute Dinosaur in that interview and is someone who should have no place in the modern game.

Looking at Mayo this year, it is painfully obvious that they have gone backwards in terms of match day tactics. At least with Horan you could see the pain etched into him after a defeat.

With H&C it's all "ah shure, we gave it a bash, and shure look it, we'll go again next year".

Get them out.

PressRun

padd b1975 wrote: »

The rumours have been doing the rounds on this very thread for a couple of weeks now.

There was no way something like this was ever going to be kept under the radar.
It would be naive for anyone to think otherwise.
As for where the leaks came from.... as far as I'm concerned it could have come from any of the three parties involved, although realistically, you would have to think it came from the players.

Oh, I'd heard myself even a few months ago that things weren't right, but I guess I meant more about the news of the vote of no confidence getting out to the media the other night. While there may have been rumours swirling around, I thought it may have been kept under wraps that an actual vote had been passed until such time as they'd sat down with the Co. Board (not that I'm criticizing the players, I fully support their stance).

NabyLadistheman

BENDYBINN wrote: »

If the system was so wrong how come we were 4 points up with 15 mins to go against the dubs?

What good is being 4 points up with 15 minutes to go if you have exerted every bit of energy you have to get in that position? We still lost the game by 8. And that is what matters here. At no stage was that a comfortable lead, it was only a miracle we had not conceded any goals before we did such was the pressure our full-back line was under. They were exposed from minute one and that is down to management, not to mention the substitutions

mayo.mick

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

What journo? There is no by line

INFLUENTIAL Mayo defender Lee Keegan was one of the seven players who did not support the secret vote of no-confidence in the county's senior football management structure, writes Aiden Henry.

terryduff12

Neary and his procedure in place, did they follow proper procedure when they hired H&C http://www.newstalk.com/mayo-succession-crisis

jmayo

I see in some article that the vote news was leaked not by players, but by other side.

It is also noticable how many of old guard are being wheeled out to defend H&C.
Carney has had a swipe at the players with comments like "who would now want to manage Mayo?".

In a previous post I referenced Maughan when in fact it should have been John Casey. My mistake just heard the John and radio poor in car.
It was on Game on last night on 2fm.

BTW he comments that maybe the players didn't like the methods of H&C and has a side wipe at them with reference to things like "players weren't meeting with people (he referenced psychologists earlier in interview) telling them how great they were".

He has been doing a lot of mouthing off over the last few days.


At least people like BJP can see it from the players point of view.

seligehgit

TBF the vast majority of people totally understand where the players are coming from and identify with the very high standards they have come to expect in terms of their preparation.....But on a purely human level one can have a great deal of sympathy for Noel Connelly and Pat Holmes.Nobody comes out a winner from this sorry saga,at least not in the short term.

Fr Tod Umptious

Just a couple of observations.

If they are pining for Horans return I'd be surprised if Parsons is one of them.
He had a fantastic year, but was ignored by Horan throughout his tenure.

Lee Keegan not being on board is interesting and certainly a cause for concern for those who are driving this, he is a senior player and one of the best on the team.
It would be interesting to see who the others are.

Holmes and Connelly have every right to be pissed.
They lead this team to a SF replay v the best team in the country in their first attempt.
They certainly improved the team with the return of Parsons, the selection of DOC (although it could be argued that his inclusion was inevitable), and arguably with the move of AOS to FF.
There were plenty of positives to take out of 2015 and work on all winter.

Fr Tod Umptious

seligehgit wrote: »

TBF the vast majority of people totally understand where the players are coming from and identify with the very high standards they have come to expect in terms of their preparation.....But on a poorly human level one can have a great deal of sympathy for Noel Connelly and Pat Holmes.Nobody comes out a winner from this sorry saga,at least not in the short term.

Well said.

Uncle Ben

Just catching up now, but in fairness if Mayo only trained / met up once from the first semi final until the second then really the Mayo mgt team cannot defend themselves

I'm sure,even with all the Diarmuid Connolly palaver that Dublin didn't just meet up once. It's an AI final at stake ffs.

Peist2007

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I'v never understood the anti MacHale thing. He has a good knowledge of club football in Mayo and a good knowledge of modern tactics. Being from a basketball background the philosophy of training and preparation in basketball is superior to the traditional training methods of most GAA people. Basketball is all about skill development through repetition of perfect technique practice. Absolutely what modern teams need. Then you have defensive side of it with man to man and zonal and all this stuff that is way above my knowledge but Dublin used it this year.
By contrast there are several older Mayo players who did much less when playing at club/county and at management level who are still seen as being legends of the game. Always this negative attitude to Liam MacHale. He might go on a bit about 1996, at the same time that is usually foisted upon him by some tv/radio or newspaper interview.
Liam MacHale was weight training from 1985 onwards he was not actually blessed with natural bulk and strength in his early days, he developed it through dedicated hard work. Just an idea of how he's not just some naturally talented athlete who had it come easy so now he doesn't understand how to contribute on management side to the modern game. Liam could even name his first intro to that side of things by Liam ONeill.

I was involved with McHale for a couple of teams over a couple of years. The allegations of being a spoofer are harsh but correct. McHale doesnt live in the current world of defensive systems etc. Andy Moran, Alan Dillon, etc would definitely agree on this too. Hence last year's supposed veto.

davegrohl48

I feel what will come out is that prep between the drawn game and the replay was way below the players expections. Well referenced in many articles and interviews that they met collectively for the first time on the Wednesday night and then had a light workout in Dublin on the Friday night. Is that the standard of preparations of a top 4 team? Is that even the standard of preparation of any club team?
If you were a club player awaiting your championship replay even at junior level and the club only had a collective squad training on Wednesday night? You'd be wondering "Why aren't we doing for Tuesday/Thursday here?"
Going out after a Wednesday meetup and a Friday loosen the legs I'd be feeling completely unprepared.

davegrohl48

Peist2007 wrote: »

I was involved with McHale for a couple of teams over a couple of years. The allegations of being a spoofer are harsh but correct. McHale doesnt live in the current world of defensive systems etc. Andy Moran, Alan Dillon, etc would definitely agree on this too. Hence last year's supposed veto.

In fairness though apart from Stephen Rochford name me one high profile player or manager in Mayo with much credit in the bank over modern defensive systems?
Playing wise Barry Moran is the only player I'v seen mark space intelligently for 70 mins and not rush in messing up the alignment of who is covering space towards goal.

Shurimgreat

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Just a couple of observations.

If they are pining for Horans return I'd be surprised if Parsons is one of them.
He had a fantastic year, but was ignored by Horan throughout his tenure.

Lee Keegan not being on board is interesting and certainly a cause for concern for those who are driving this, he is a senior player and one of the best on the team.
It would be interesting to see who the others are.

Holmes and Connelly have every right to be pissed.
They lead this team to a SF replay v the best team in the country in their first attempt.
They certainly improved the team with the return of Parsons, the selection of DOC (although it could be argued that his inclusion was inevitable), and arguably with the move of AOS to FF.
There were plenty of positives to take out of 2015 and work on all winter.

Parsons played last year for Horan, played well in both games against Kerry. In fairness, he had a few bad years with injury and also loss of form. He was very inconsistent when he first came on the scene, nowhere near as good as he has become. The move of AOS to FF ultimately backfired. It works against weaker opposition but Dublin had a plan for him. Once that became clear it was time to change things around, but nope Mayo management stuck with their own plan which was failing.

The measure of good management is they recognise their mistakes midgame or after the game and tweak or change things. Horan unfortunately was guilty of being predictable and following the same plan most games, as are H/C. This is why I am sure people like Buckley get frustrated, and the players as well.

Peist2007

davegrohl48 wrote: »

In fairness though apart from Stephen Rochford name me one high profile player or manager in Mayo with much credit in the bank over modern defensive systems?
Playing wise Barry Moran is the only player I'v seen mark space intelligently for 70 mins and not rush in messing up the alignment of who is covering space towards goal.

What's your point? The question was asked why McHale isnt wanted and you've just been told why by someone who played under him in various teams from a low to a very high level. If you still think McHale is the man then fine. He isnt though and Mayo have dodged a bullet if he is gone to Roscommon

davegrohl48

Peist2007 wrote: »

What's your point? The question was asked why McHale isnt wanted and you've just been told why by someone who played under him in various teams from a low to a very high level. If you still think McHale is the man then fine. He isnt though and Mayo have dodged a bullet if he is gone to Roscommon

I believe Stephen Rochford is the best candidate just on that point.
My point is that people dismiss Liam MacHale as not being knowledgable of the modern game. That may be true or not. It would be logical his knowledge has increased since he trained yourself. Coaches don't stand still knowledge wise no more than players. If he lacks defensive knowledge it's no worse than any other high profile manager we have had.
I don't see why it's a thing to hold against Liam when James Horans teams were as leaky as a sieve. Even Horan stated in 2015 that he thinks sweeper system means you don't impose your game on the opposition. Well personally I like the idea of imposing the non-concession of goals on the opposition.
You may be right and MacHale just doesn't have it. Specifically I can't see how his knowledge on defensive side has him way below other coaching candidates. Donie Buckley gets lauded to the high heavens as a coach. People gathering in hushed groups ... tackling, tackling, tackling. Quick review.
- His teams have conceded goals
- His coached defenders play individual not collective with lots of rushing in by players unnecessarily leaving space in behind. Many examples across league and championship.

Utopia Parkway

keith16 wrote: »

Neary sounds like an absolute Dinosaur in that interview and is someone who should have no place in the modern game.

Looking at Mayo this year, it is painfully obvious that they have gone backwards in terms of match day tactics.

Is it? Did the current management not get praise heaped upon them after the tactical setup for the Donegal game? Barry Moran sweeping in front of Michael Murphy. They moved Aidan O'Shea into 14 this year.

One loss then after a replay to the best team in the country and they are suddenly tactically inept again.

Maybe there are underlying reasons for all this but on the football pitch the current duo haven't done any worse than Horan did.

Peist2007

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I believe Stephen Rochford is the best candidate just on that point.
My point is that people dismiss Liam MacHale as not being knowledgable of the modern game. That may be true or not. It would be logical his knowledge has increased since he trained yourself. Coaches don't stand still knowledge wise no more than players. If he lacks defensive knowledge it's no worse than any other high profile manager we have had.
I don't see why it's a thing to hold against Liam when James Horans teams were as leaky as a sieve. Even Horan stated in 2015 that he thinks sweeper system means you don't impose your game on the opposition. Well personally I like the idea of imposing the non-concession of goals on the opposition.
You may be right and MacHale just doesn't have it. Specifically I can't see how his knowledge on defensive side has him way below other coaching candidates. Donie Buckley gets lauded to the high heavens as a coach. People gathering in hushed groups ... tackling, tackling, tackling. Quick review.
- His teams have conceded goals
- His coached defenders play individual not collective with lots of rushing in by players unnecessarily leaving space in behind. Many examples across league and championship.

Donie Buckley is a coach. As is McHale. Goals being continuously leaked is at the manager's door.

However, in order to be as effective as Mayo are ie tackling in swarms, high intensity teamwork, you need to be coached to do this. Based on what i have seen of McHale (and McStay as a manager) there is little emphasis on tactical aspects and more an emphasis on basic skills like handling etc which is honed doing more intense versions of drills you would do on your club pitch back home. That is not even nearly what a county team needs in 2015/2016.

And i never said McHale shouldnt get the job because his teams would leak goals. That is a problem we have already. McHale would have us playing football from circa 2000. Would be nice to see a team line out traditionally i guess. Dont expect us to win though.

Shurimgreat

Peist2007 wrote: »

Donie Buckley is a coach. As is McHale. Goals being continuously leaked is at the manager's door.

However, in order to be as effective as Mayo are ie tackling in swarms, high intensity teamwork, you need to be coached to do this. Based on what i have seen of McHale (and McStay as a manager) there is little emphasis on tactical aspects and more an emphasis on basic skills like handling etc which is honed doing more intense versions of drills you would do on your club pitch back home. That is not even nearly what a county team needs in 2015/2016.

And i never said McHale shouldnt get the job because his teams would leak goals. That is a problem we have already. McHale would have us playing football from circa 2000. Would be nice to see a team line out traditionally i guess. Dont expect us to win though.

The current management have us playing football circa 2000...big man up front, bomb it in. Their attempt at a sweeper was poor, although I don't agree that modern sweepers tend to just stand on front of the goalie as Joe Brolly suggests.

Lets be honest, a McStay/McHale combination would be streets ahead of the current setup and probably ahead of the Horan setup too. Provided they would retain Buckley. McHale could have been a selector.

There's been some laughable stuff thrown around when it comes to choosing a Mayo manager. Objections to people who have no previous intercounty experience, objections to McHale on spurious grounds, objections to everyone and anyone.

Whoever you choose is not going to be perfect. There is no perfect manager out there.

Another point, I noticed in recent years that Mayo teams are experts at swarm tackles, turning over, etc....but often p*ss poor at essential skills like kick passing and point scoring from play, particularly a number of forwards. You can only get so far with modern football. You need a bit of traditional football too, and Dublin and Kerry both have footballers who can mix the modern with traditional skills.

Fr Tod Umptious

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The current management have us playing football circa 2000...big man up front, bomb it in. Their attempt at a sweeper was poor, although I don't agree that modern sweepers tend to just stand on front of the goalie as Joe Brolly suggests.

Lets be honest, a McStay/McHale combination would be streets ahead of the current setup and probably ahead of the Horan setup too. Provided they would retain Buckley. McHale could have been a selector.

There's been some laughable stuff thrown around when it comes to choosing a Mayo manager. Objections to people who have no previous intercounty experience, objections to McHale on spurious grounds, objections to everyone and anyone.

Whoever you choose is not going to be perfect. There is no perfect manager out there.

That's a big leap to suggest that.

Can you give us some idea of how you come to that conclusion.

And if I recall Buckley was never part of the McStay package last year, that was given as one reason for them not being chosen.

Shurimgreat

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That's a big leap to suggest that.

Can you give us some idea of how you come to that conclusion.

And if I recall Buckley was never part of the McStay package last year, that was given as one reason for them not being chosen.

Not altogether sure what McStay had in mind for Buckley, but he should have been kept on. That said, McStay won an AI with McHale by his side and he clearly rates McHale as a coach. It makes no sense for McStay to undermine Mayo and his own chances by picking a bad coach.

I'd trust McStay's judgement on this, more so than others. He's a proven manager, unlike many who comment about him. Harsh but true.

As for him being streets ahead, all it takes is a bit of cop on to manage this group of Mayo players and sadly that's been lacking in recent years. Tactical nous is what is missing at key times.

davegrohl48

When the players were told meetup again Wednesday after drawn game. Think on that as a club player or ex club player. Ridiculous.

naughto

davegrohl48 wrote: »

When the players were told meetup again Wednesday after drawn game. Think on that as a club player or ex club player. Ridiculous.

It should have being the next evening g and every evening that week if need be

Ascii

Just a thought...If Keegan voted for H+C and is it fair to say that Big Bird Barry, Cunniffe, Kirby and Durcan voted for their old manager that we possibly have 5 of the 7 identified already ?

On another note don't think this forum would be as busy if mayo won sam Maguire :-)
My phone is smoking from the alerts

davegrohl48

naughto wrote: »

It should have being the next evening g and every evening that week if need be

Of club players Iv checked everyone puzzled as to why not Tuesday n Thursday. Recover on Monday. Recover on Wednesday.

padd b1975

Ascii wrote: »

Just a thought...If Keegan voted for H+C and is it fair to say that Big Bird Barry, Cunniffe, Kirby and Durcan voted for their old manager that we possibly have 5 of the 7 identified already ?

On another note don't think this forum would be as busy if mayo won sam Maguire :-)
My phone is smoking from the alerts

You don't need to be a genius to work out that the Castlebar lads were always going to back Holmes.

paintitwhite

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Not altogether sure what McStay had in mind for Buckley, but he should have been kept on. That said, McStay won an AI with McHale by his side and he clearly rates McHale as a coach. It makes no sense for McStay to undermine Mayo and his own chances by picking a bad coach.

I'd trust McStay's judgement on this, more so than others. He's a proven manager, unlike many who comment about him. Harsh but true.

As for him being streets ahead, all it takes is a bit of cop on to manage this group of Mayo players and sadly that's been lacking in recent years. Tactical nous is what is missing at key times.

Isn't there a family connection between McStay and McHale? I would rate that ticket highly but worth pointing out as its a stick being used to beat the current ticket.

Peist2007

Shurimgreat wrote: »

The current management have us playing football circa 2000...big man up front, bomb it in. Their attempt at a sweeper was poor, although I don't agree that modern sweepers tend to just stand on front of the goalie as Joe Brolly suggests.

Lets be honest, a McStay/McHale combination would be streets ahead of the current setup and probably ahead of the Horan setup too. Provided they would retain Buckley. McHale could have been a selector.

There's been some laughable stuff thrown around when it comes to choosing a Mayo manager. Objections to people who have no previous intercounty experience, objections to McHale on spurious grounds, objections to everyone and anyone.

Whoever you choose is not going to be perfect. There is no perfect manager out there.

Another point, I noticed in recent years that Mayo teams are experts at swarm tackles, turning over, etc....but often p*ss poor at essential skills like kick passing and point scoring from play, particularly a number of forwards. You can only get so far with modern football. You need a bit of traditional football too, and Dublin and Kerry both have footballers who can mix the modern with traditional skills.

I never said there was a perfect manager out there.

How are my grounds for being against McHale spurious? I played under the man for about 5 years. He's a sound man but is tactically non-existent. He would be our coach instead of Buckley under that regime. You think that would be better? Fair enough but prepare for further disappointment.

Peist2007

paintitwhite wrote: »

Isn't there a family connection between McStay and McHale? I would rate that ticket highly but worth pointing out as its a stick being used to beat the current ticket.

McHale is married to McStay's sister.

Pat Holmes and Noel Connelly are not related.