Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

ultrapercy

The more things change the more they remain the same. Poor decision making on the line and lack of composure and naivety on the pitch were the main factors in this defeat. While Rob Hennley was taking the kick out with one of his gloves off and held in his hand I had a horrible sinking feeling. That rushed kick out led eventually to Brogans goal. When Mayo needed cool heads and composure it seemed to evaporate. The loss of SOS was a massive bearing too and you can only question the black card. Had it been red it would be more understandable but if not a red surely a yelbow was the correct decision. To then loose Barry Moran (who I hope was injured )and then Parsons left us without a midfield for 15 mins of an all ireland semi final. Vaughan should never have started and Duncan was the wrong man to replace him. It's as if the management had a plan to bring Duncan on as first sub regardless of circumstance. Hindsight is 20/20 though and the player sitting on the ditch knows all. You must feel for this incredible bunch of athletes who do not seem to know any limits to their physical and mental endurance. If the ball was kicked into a bear pit these lads would chase in after it but the truth is that the quality to scale the very top of the mountain is not there. They are very close but its hard now to see how they can win it. They may yet contest more semis and finals but I don't believe that the mix is right to win the ultimate prize. At any rate it's all just opinion and this squad owe nothing to anyone but themselves.

jmayo

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I see this as year one of a new project. The Horan style has been dismantled. Think back to Donegal in year one and how they progressed and gained the ultimate prize in year two. If we are to persist with Aido at full forward then we have to develop our style so that a) we deliver quality ball into him, good diagonal ball that he can win, b) have runners and/or corner forward that takes a pop pass coming from behind and slot the easy points, c) develop a quick counter attack. Rewatching the game this evening you could see that an awful lot of aimless and unwinnable ball was played in. Also we slowed the ball down time and time again when if we played at a higher tempo the Dubs would have been exposed.

You are still forgetting the big fecking elephant in the corner that has been there for over a decade.
The defense needs to be tightened to prevent goals.
Brolly for all his shytetology is damm right.

And the fact that the management had the year to try and remedy that, but yet shipped soft goals is the worrying thing.
They should have been working on developing a sweeper system all year not the last couple of months.

If you look at the Donegal development, the tight defense was probably the thing most developed in the first years.

Suarezistheman wrote: »

I wrote this 2 months ago. Whatever about the substitution's it was criminal to set-up so naively against the Dubs. No sweeper whatsoever, I would hate to play in that Mayo full-back line. They were so exposed and it's only a miracle there was no goals conceded in the first half.

In my mind we need to go way for the winter & start working on a defensive structure for next season. One which employs at least one full-time sweeper who can play the position, (unlike Boyler, & I love Boyler) We have the perfect link men in DOC to play this way & the fact Noel & Pat could not see this as soon as they came in worries me greatly.

Donegal 2012 - defensive
Dublin 2013 - defensive
Kerry 2014 - defensive
Kerry Dublin 2015 - defensive

Some of the fan-base may not be happy, such was the hullabaloo after the drawn match. But in the end of that match we had Dublin broke. This system needs to be played in the FBD, the league & every match we play in Connaught. It's the only way forward & our only chance of sealing the deal with these lads. God knows they deserve it. Do Noel & Pat ave the foresight & ability to implement it though?!

Agree.
And if anything I think someone linked to Northern teams needs to be brought on board to do it because I don't think the two guys there know how.
They had a long time to work on something, but in the end the developed sweeper system looked like it was half ar**d and cobbled together last minute.

A lot of people are writing off the likes of Tyrone.
Tyrone are a lot closer than people think (they need a reliable free taker and a couple more scoring forwards much like ourselves) and wily old fox Mickie Harte is worth all of Mayo's managers in the last 20 years combined.

But for the fact that some guys are getting on and have a lot of hours of hard work on the clock, it would be fine for this current management team to have a few years to do the necessary.
There are only so many years you can ask guys to postpone their lives and go back to the well.
No one could begrudge some of the older guys hanging their boots up after all the years hard service they have given.

Poor_old_gill

Hard luck to Mayo on Saturday - the on pitch reasons for the loss have been discussed ad infinitum so there is no need for me to delve into them any more.
I know Mayo fans wear the over the top support of the county as a badge of honour but maybe the whole 'Mayo for Sam' thing every year where fans try to out do each other by undertaking ever more zany acts is actually increasing the pressure on the team.

A more low key build up might help the team in the future?
Don't take my words as gospel or an insult- just an opinion.

ColeTrain

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

Hard luck to Mayo on Saturday - the on pitch reasons for the loss have been discussed ad infinitum so there is no need for me to delve into them any more.
I know Mayo fans wear the over the top support of the county as a badge of honour but maybe the whole 'Mayo for Sam' thing every year where fans try to out do each other by undertaking ever more zany acts is actually increasing the pressure on the team.

A more low key build up might help the team in the future?
Don't take my words as gospel or an insult- just an opinion.

This is a fair point. There was serious hype around the county after we beat Donegal. I tried to avoid social media the last couple of weeks because it was just too much, I've personally had enough of it the last few years. The thing is, the hype is usually generated from the bandwagon support and it seems to be getting worse every year! I even saw songs released before the Donegal game, ffs who in their right mind though that it was a good idea to release that?

While I appreciate there is always going to be a level of excitement around the county when the team is doing well, I really don't think it helps things. From an outsider looking in, it must seem beyond cringe worthy too. The 'Mayo 4 Sam' slogan to be fair, is just used as a piss take by a lot of people but its had its day. Hopefully one day there will be a slogan 'Mayo have Sam' and nobody will laugh.

Blackjack

Not entirely relevant but does anyone else see Kerry at 6/5 to win as remarkable value?. I know they didn't look world beaters against Tyrone but I'd put a lot of that down to conditions on the day being more suited to Tyrones hand passing game.

MayoForSam

I yearn for the day I can change my user name to MayoWonSam :(:(.

Loafing Oaf

Blackjack wrote: »

Not entirely relevant but does anyone else see Kerry at 6/5 to win as remarkable value?.

No I'd probably make Dublin slight favourites too, if only because you'd think they're slightly hungrier

fullstop

Gallagher10 wrote: »

I think i read in here somewhere that there are only 3 big teams left where I disagree with that entirely. I believe that there are 6 teams to think of for any given game and they are Mayo, Dublin, Donegal, Kerry, Tyrone and Monaghan. Tyrone ran Kerry close, Mayo were fortunate to have a fluke goal against Donegal that really killed the game, Dublin aren't much ahead of Mayo. It's close tbh. Honestly I think COC needs to develop more from play as I only see him score frees in the big games. Thoughts?

I think it was more the 3rd game in 4 weeks that did for Donegal rather than Keegan's goal. It was always going to be a big ask with Mayo having 4 weeks (?) off after a cakewalk in the Connaught final. I have to laugh at Fr Tod's post basically saying nobody should trouble Mayo until the final next year! Arrogant much?! Not for the first time of course.

Gallagher10

I see what yous are saying lads but donegal were killed by keegans goal it just knocked the stuffing out of them! Like i know it's all what ifs but if that goal didn't go in i coulda seen a closer affair in the 2nd half leaving it truly 50/50! But the past is the past!

kupus

Onwards and upwards I've been pizzed the last few days so need to look forward to cold wet blustery Rainey days in Mchale park followed by a couple in mchales pub!!

Donegal home
Down ?
Roscommon...haven't the foggiest, it's being so long they were playing in the big time
Kerry home
Dublin away
Monaghan away
Cork home

So only two home games not incl down or ros coz I don't know.
Anyone know about them.

Always_Running

I think Mayo are further away from winning the All Ireland now than 12 months ago. Saturday was Mayo largest margin of defeat in the championship for 4 years and in that defeat they showed signs of side with a lot of miles on the clock. In regards to 2016 at home Roscommon,Galway should mean a 6th Connacht title in a row but i think a someone like Tyrone who showed improvement this year and have more U-21 All Ireland winners to bring into their side could catch Mayo on the hop in the All Ireland series.

Defiler Of The Coffin

Obviously I was very disappointed after the match, but not as despondent as last year when we certainly should have kicked on and got to the final. We never looked strong enough to win either game. You simply can't chase a match against the Dubs and expect to come out on top. There has been much made about tactics and whatnot but for all his bluster Brolly is correct, we ship goals at crucial moments in games. That has been our undoing in the past four years. Who was supposed to pick up Fenton when he made his run, why was Brogan allowed to pass the ball inside the way he did, why did McManamon have so much space to run into? We simply must devise a proper defensive plan, practice like crazy on the training ground and deploy it against the big teams in the league. We will never make it over the line otherwise. We seemed to get it right against Donegal but it just didn't work against Dublin, the warning signs were there when McMahon should have goaled in the first half.

In attack, the experiment with O'Shea might have worked against the weaker teams but until it makes hay against the likes of Dublin or Kerry then it must be expanded upon. More coaching on the training field to have lads get themselves in a position to deliver quick diagonal ball into O'Shea before he is boxed in by the opposing defence, along with players to lay off it to or to collect if punched away. As a strategy it has potential but needs more work as a team. More natural forwards are required, and perhaps McLoughlin and Doherty should be playing deeper if that is to be their role. As our main scoring threat there should be no need for COC to track back as he was regularly doing the last day.

Much has been made about players having miles up on the clock, psychological tiredness and whatnot. I think the majority of the players will have the hunger to give it another go next year. But the team does need to be freshened up. Get the likes of Kirby, Byrne, Irwin, Conroy, Coen and Durkan in there and give them plenty of game time in the league and have them compete for places. Give Mickey Sweeney more game time, we only ever seem to see him with 5 minutes remaining and the game slipping away. Either give him proper game time or don't bother. Diarmuid O'Connor showed potential in last year's championship but has already come to prominence in a short space of time. We need more like him to step up.

The league will be very important next year, plenty of new players to be blooded and better defence and attack strategies to be deployed. We cannot make it up as we go along. By all means give the established players a rest but it's vital that management get planning early for the league. No need to go all out and win it (although it would be a badly needed confidence boost) but progress does need to be made.

I don't know, I have mixed feelings about this year. Noel and Pat have made errors but they have shown they aren't afraid to shake things up. I was disappointed with some of the basic errors made on the pitch. Bad kick-passing, decision making, poor shot selection, poor kick-outs. These are things that need to be coached out early in the year. It's also disappointing that players on the road this long are not displaying the cuteness needed to win big games. We were short on leaders after our goal went in. But kudos to the players for coming back to the well year-after-year. I have no doubt they will be challenging again next year, hopefully with lessons fully learned and a more astute coaching team behind them.

Fr Tod Umptious

fullstop wrote: »

I think it was more the 3rd game in 4 weeks that did for Donegal rather than Keegan's goal. It was always going to be a big ask with Mayo having 4 weeks (?) off after a cakewalk in the Connaught final. I have to laugh at Fr Tod's post basically saying nobody should trouble Mayo until the final next year! Arrogant much?! Not for the first time of course.

It's not arrogance it's realistic expectation.

And there is nothing wrong with having that realistic expectation.

All things being equal Mayo have a great opportunity to make next years All Ireland final.
And what I mean by all things being equal is that you don't have any major injuries and the likes of Mayo, Kerry and Dublin win their provinces thus allowing Mayo to avoid the other two up to the final.
As I said in the other post I'd fully expect Mayo to win Connacht what with having home games etc.
Galway may be improving but Mayo are still much better and myuch more experienced.
Roscommon are not beating mayo at home either.
Once you get past Connacnt you are in a QF.
This could be anyone but if they keep the A\B structure it's unlikely to be the Ulster loser or qualifier because that's who we played this year.
If they are doing some sort of rotation it’s likely to be the Leinster loser or a qualifier, and to be honest I don't think there is anything in Leinster to trouble Mayo.
Now that qualifier may be and Ulster team, but really Ulster is the most over rated province in the land.
Monaghan are a one dimensional joke. Since 2011 they are the only provincial champion not to have a 100% QF record, they actually have a 0% QF record.
Tyrone were made to look good this year by a poor Monaghan team and a pretty soft ramble through the qualifiers.
Donegal look road weary and they may have a number of retirements this winter.

So realty there is no team in Ulster that should be threatening Mayo, in a QF as a qualifier or in a SF as qualifier or champion.

Cork once again are the big outliers here, no one knows what to expect.
They may throw the whole thing into chaos by beating Kerry in Munster but they again they may be gone by the middle of July.

So just as this year based on the draw a SF loss to Dublin was always about as far as I thought Mayo would go, so next year a final is well within their grasp based on the draw.

Fr Tod Umptious

Always_Running wrote: »

I think Mayo are further away from winning the All Ireland now than 12 months ago. Saturday was Mayo largest margin of defeat in the championship for 4 years and in that defeat they showed signs of side with a lot of miles on the clock. In regards to 2016 at home Roscommon,Galway should mean a 6th Connacht title in a row but i think a someone like Tyrone who showed improvement this year and have more U-21 All Ireland winners to bring into their side could catch Mayo on the hop in the All Ireland series.

Since June 26th 2010 Mayo have not been caught on the hop.
The closest was v Roscommon in 2014.
Tyrone may have won the U21 this year but as we have seen from the likes of Galway it takes more than a single year to move U21s to senior.
A soft run through the qualifiers and a QF v Monaghan made Tyrone look a lot better than they are

Fr Tod Umptious

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

............... and perhaps McLoughlin and Doherty should be playing deeper if that is to be their role. As our main scoring threat there should be no need for COC to track back as he was regularly doing the last day...........

Swap McLoughlin and Keegan

McLoughlin started out as a wing back, the change may help him, and we all know how Keegan likes to get forward.

TCDStudent1

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Swap McLoughlin and Keegan

McLoughlin started out as a wing back, the change may help him, and we all know how Keegan likes to get forward.

I'd put mcloughlin back to the backs alright but wouldn't put keegan in the forwards. Keegan loves to get forward alright but he is also a wonderful marker. Just look at how well he did on Connolly. You'd really be robbing your defence and weakening it with that move. Mayos defence certainly can't cope with being weakened any more than it currently is! I'd also wonder if keegan would be as effective further up the pitch, he is great at running from deep, from the half back line to create an overlap and get into a point scoring position. But it's not as easy to find that space when you're further up the pitch being marked by a defender (rather than a forward). I wouldn't move keegan if I was manager anyway.

naughto

Mcstay could be unveiled as Ross manager this week

Kayleigh..

MAYO FOR SAM

Loafing Oaf

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

It's also disappointing that players on the road this long are not displaying the cuteness needed to win big games.

I wonder is this a cultural thing, that no amount of big-game experience can teach you. Are us Mayo bucks just too nice and 'straight edge'?:P
Would players from a 'lesser' team like Tyrone have bundled Brogan out over the endline before he had the chance to set up the second goal, even taking a booking if they had to?

ProudDUB

Niceness doesn't come into it. The Mayo defenders were soley intent on closing down Brogans angle, so that he couldn't fist the ball over the bar for an easy point. They succeeded in that, but they neglected the acres of space to his right, for Philly Mc to run into. If they'd been just a bit tighter there, they could have stopped both - the fisted point and the goal, without having to resort to any Tyrone-esque levels of nastiness.

corny

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I'd put mcloughlin back to the backs alright but wouldn't put keegan in the forwards. Keegan loves to get forward alright but he is also a wonderful marker. Just look at how well he did on Connolly. You'd really be robbing your defence and weakening it with that move. Mayos defence certainly can't cope with being weakened any more than it currently is! I'd also wonder if keegan would be as effective further up the pitch, he is great at running from deep, from the half back line to create an overlap and get into a point scoring position. But it's not as easy to find that space when you're further up the pitch being marked by a defender (rather than a forward). I wouldn't move keegan if I was manager anyway.

Agreed. Keegan was what every other Mayo back wasn't on Saturday..diligent in marking his man. All the nonsense about sweepers and systems is irrelevant if lads aren't pulled to task for not doing their basic jobs. Higgins (out of character perhaps), Cafferkey and Vaughan were loose loads of times. AOS avoided criticism even though his man ran a mock.

For me its nothing to do with tactics. The manager can't help lads concentrate from the sideline. Too easy to blame him/them.

Always_Running

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Since June 26th 2010 Mayo have not been caught on the hop.
The closest was v Roscommon in 2014.
Tyrone may have won the U21 this year but as we have seen from the likes of Galway it takes more than a single year to move U21s to senior.
A soft run through the qualifiers and a QF v Monaghan made Tyrone look a lot better than they are

Cork got within a score of Mayo last year also and Cork could easily have beaten Kerry this summer. If thats what they are like when (in your own words) a mess what will they be like if they get their act together next year?

Tyrone have now reached two All Ireland semi finals in the last three years. A few weeks ago against Kerry the wayward free taking and not scoring at least one of the 4 goals chances created cost Tyrone it wasn't to dissimilar to Mayos semi final defeat to Kerry in 2011 and we have seen how far Mayo have improved since. They may have got relegated but Tyrone are established top 8 side and they have a proven and experienced manager, Galway on the other hand have been unable to get out of Div 2 the last few years they haven't won a game in Croke park since 2001 i think and i doubt if they will make much progress under Kevin Walsh.

padd b1975

kupus wrote: »

Onwards and upwards I've been pizzed the last few days so need to look forward to cold wet blustery Rainey days in Mchale park followed by a couple in mchales pub!!

Donegal home
Down ?
Roscommon...haven't the foggiest, it's being so long they were playing in the big time
Kerry home
Dublin away
Monaghan away
Cork home

So only two home games not incl down or ros coz I don't know.
Anyone know about them.

Is it not Donegal away next year having drawn with them earlier this year in McHale Park?

We last played Down on a Saturday evening in Newry and were well beaten in the end, so that one should be at home, unless it all has to be mixed up to give balance.

Fr Tod Umptious

Always_Running wrote: »

Cork got within a score of Mayo last year also and Cork could easily have beaten Kerry this summer. If thats what they are like when (in your own words) a mess what will they be like if they get their act together next year?

Tyrone have now reached two All Ireland semi finals in the last three years. A few weeks ago against Kerry the wayward free taking and not scoring at least one of the 4 goals chances created cost Tyrone it wasn't to dissimilar to Mayos semi final defeat to Kerry in 2011 and we have seen how far Mayo have improved since. They may have got relegated but Tyrone are established top 8 side and they have a proven and experienced manager, Galway on the other hand have been unable to get out of Div 2 the last few years they haven't won a game in Croke park since 2001 i think and i doubt if they will make much progress under Kevin Walsh.

In 2015 Cork were a team that were one badly taken 45 away from beating Kerry in Kerry for the first time in 20 years and thus putting Kerry on the same side of the draw as Dublin.
A few short weeks later they were getting their holes handed to them by a Kildare team that endedup losing by 19 and 27 pts in a single season.
And then a few short weeks later again they claimed in public that the ref cost them a AI SF place no less, not a Munster title, but an AI SF place.

If that is not the definition of a team that are a mess I don't know what is.

As for Tyrone, the two SF places were on the back of beating the worst provincial champions in the past 5 seasons.
Sure they exposed a few homes in the Kerry defence, even Tipp did that, but they never exploited it.

ultrapercy

ProudDUB wrote: »

Niceness doesn't come into it. The Mayo defenders were soley intent on closing down Brogans angle, so that he couldn't fist the ball over the bar for an easy point. They succeeded in that, but they neglected the acres of space to his right, for Philly Mc to run into. If they'd been just a bit tighter there, they could have stopped both - the fisted point and the goal, without having to resort to any Tyrone-esque levels of nastiness.

This obsession with Tyrone us just a bit rich at this stage. What Cooper did to DOC in the first match was worse than anything I have seen done by Tyrone over the years. Dublins verbal abuse of AOS was on a par with anything any Ulster county do. To my knowledge none of the Tyrone county panel have ever pleaded guilty to gbh. You don't have to look too farm from your own door to see nasty, is the basic tennant of what I'm saying.

padd b1975

ultrapercy wrote: »

 To my knowledge none of the Tyrone county panel have ever pleaded guilty to gbh.

Indeed.

Illegal dog fighting is more their thing.

ProudDUB

ultrapercy wrote: »

This obsession with Tyrone us just a bit rich at this stage. What Cooper did to DOC in the first match was worse than anything I have seen done by Tyrone over the years. Dublins verbal abuse of AOS was on a par with anything any Ulster county do. To my knowledge none of the Tyrone county panel have ever pleaded guilty to gbh. You don't have to look too farm from your own door to see nasty, is the basic tennant of what I'm saying.

Calm down. I was replying to a Mayo poster who referenced what a Tyrone player would have done in a similar situation. If you object to Tyrone being brought into the discussion, take it up with them.

Loafing Oaf

ultrapercy wrote: »

This obsession with Tyrone us just a bit rich at this stage. What Cooper did to DOC in the first match was worse than anything I have seen done by Tyrone over the years. Dublins verbal abuse of AOS was on a par with anything any Ulster county do. To my knowledge none of the Tyrone county panel have ever pleaded guilty to gbh. You don't have to look too farm from your own door to see nasty, is the basic tennant of what I'm saying.

I brought up Tyrone, as an exemplar of 'cuteness'/cynicism/rule-bending rather than out-an-out thuggery, which I don't think is unfair, Sean Cavanagh's rugby tackle on Conor MacManus a couple of years ago being a case in point. The broader point is that pretty much every team that has won an AI in recent years has more of this 'quality' than Mayo. I'm just wondering is this something that flows from Mayo's football culture. Don't know enough about the sport at grassroots level to judge.

ultrapercy

ProudDUB wrote: »

Calm down. I was replying to a Mayo poster who referenced what a Tyrone player would have done in a similar situation. If you object to Tyrone being brought into the discussion, take it up with them.

I'm perfectly calm dude, calmer than you are.

Ace2007

ultrapercy wrote: »

This obsession with Tyrone us just a bit rich at this stage. What Cooper did to DOC in the first match was worse than anything I have seen done by Tyrone over the years. Dublins verbal abuse of AOS was on a par with anything any Ulster county do. .

Really?, strange there was no talk about any verbals in the game - but yet there was a lot about in in Ulster not so long ago, a Donegal minor player was allegedly taunted over his father's death by tyrone players.

I don't think any other county would do that do another person. Really have to wonder how young lads in Tyrone are being raised for them to think it was acceptable.