Is Joe Schmidt concealing his hand?

molloyjh

LorMal wrote: »

Don't be getting your panties in a bunch there JH. It's alright, Ireland will win the World Cup, okay? Hooray.

I'm not getting in any way worked up over this. I think you might be reading a tad too much into all of this.

LorMal

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm not getting in any way worked up over this. I think you might be reading a tad too much into all of this.

As I stated a couple of times, I haven't a clue really. Just a punter like everyone else. I have no idea who will win so don't be offended if my opinion differs to yours.
We're all winners:)

molloyjh

LorMal wrote: »

As I stated a couple of times, I haven't a clue really. Just a punter like everyone else. I have no idea who will win so don't be offended if my opinion differs to yours.
We're all winners:)

I'm a tough person to offend so you've nothing to worry about there! I just think we're in a good place and shouldn't be afraid to acknowledge that. I do think we need to develop our game a bit as well but we've seen other teams kick their way to World Cups in the past. It doesn't have to be all-singing, all-dancing rugby. As long as we can vary things just enough we are in with a shout. We don't need to reinvent ourselves.

So in other words the truth is in the middle somewhere....

Akrasia

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm a tough person to offend so you've nothing to worry about there! I just think we're in a good place and shouldn't be afraid to acknowledge that. I do think we need to develop our game a bit as well but we've seen other teams kick their way to World Cups in the past. It doesn't have to be all-singing, all-dancing rugby. As long as we can vary things just enough we are in with a shout. We don't need to reinvent ourselves.

So in other words the truth is in the middle somewhere....

So, what you're saying is, we're definitely going to win??? awesome (:

The Rape of Lucretia

LorMal wrote: »

Its all this 'back to back champions having beaten every side bar 1 of the top sides in the world' stuff that gets me. Doesn't matter one iota. If we play hoof ball we will get stuffed.

Hoof ball wins. The more we hoof the more we win.

You need to have hoofers though to get in into the opposition half. But we have them.
And you need hoof retrivers. We have them in spades.
And a defense that gives nothing away easily and holds territory. We have that too.

So looking good for us. And its no accident Joe is racking up the trophies. Passing, jinking, speedie backs are totally passé at this stage and of interest only to rugby romantics or retro afficionados. Loping second rows roaming upfield, and quick offloading and opposition halfback terrorising backrows are old school.

Joe knows what wins games, and eschews all that self indulgent rugby a surprising number of modern professional coaches are still suckered into in devising their gameplans.

Thats why we will win the world cup. He knows it himself too. Witness his famed unerring attention to detail and see who was ticking the Irish citizenship box yesterday just to have everything in order.

LorMal

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Hoof ball wins. The more we hoof the more we win.

You need to have hoofers though to get in into the opposition half. But we have them.
And you need hoof retrivers. We have them in spades.
And a defense that gives nothing away easily and holds territory. We have that too.

So looking good for us. And its no accident Joe is racking up the trophies. Passing, jinking, speedie backs are totally passé at this stage and of interest only to rugby romantics or retro afficionados. Loping second rows roaming upfield, and quick offloading and opposition halfback terrorising backrows are old school.

Joe knows what wins games, and eschews all that self indulgent rugby a surprising number of modern professional coaches are still suckered into in devising their gameplans.

Thats why we will win the world cup. He knows it himself too. Witness his famed unerring attention to detail and see who was ticking the Irish citizenship box yesterday just to have everything in order.

Are NZ playing hoofball now too? (Genuine question - haven't seen them for a while)

Flipper22

LorMal wrote: »

Are NZ playing hoofball now too? (Genuine question - haven't seen them for a while)

Yes quite a bit. They certainly don't play in their own half.

To be honest I think the differences in gameplan among the top teams are quite a bit overblown in terms of the whole 'not playing much rugby' thing. If a team is dominating the collisions and winning the breakdown it's easy to look good in attack.

Yeah_Right

LorMal wrote: »

Are NZ playing hoofball now too? (Genuine question - haven't seen them for a while)

They do kick a lot. In the last couple of seasons I think they kicked more than their opponents and often had less possession. A lot of their attack came from turnovers and exploiting space with quick ball. Very little from first phase possesSion. I can't remember where I read these stats but I remember reading them.

ionadnapokot

Yeah_Right wrote: »

They do kick a lot. In the last couple of seasons I think they kicked more than their opponents and often had less possession. A lot of their attack came from turnovers and exploiting space with quick ball. Very little from first phase possesSion. I can't remember where I read these stats but I remember reading them.

NZ, Aus, SA and now Argentina are all focused on the scoring potential of turnovers. Most of their turnover tries come within two phases of the turnover.

I think this excellent piece by MK highlights how far Ireland have to go.
http://www.the42.ie/analysis-south-africa-new-zealand-turnover-tries-2015-2237913-Jul2015/
I can only remember one turnover try (excl interceptions) scored by Ireland under JS. Sextons 2nd in Paris (3 phases. Trimble made a hames of the finish).
However, set piece is still the best form of attack. But rarely will it result in a 1st phase score.

Where the tries are scored from in the Super Rugby. Unsurprisingly all the NZ teams top of the turnover conversion table.
http://en.espn.co.uk/super-rugby-2015/rugby/story/261417.html
http://www.sanzarrugby.com/superrugby/news/stats-feature-where-do-tries-originate/

jacothelad

penybont exile wrote: »

Ireland woulld be my preference for the semi if we're good enough to get there.

Not likely to happen though ...... QF exit to the AB's beckons.

So you think Wales are going to get to the QF and somehow play the ABs?........Optimist....have you been in the Severn Arms again?.:D

JF100

I believe this reference is in fact to Ireland...
i.e. a loss to France in the Group stages would result in a QF with NZ (and a probable loss ... again).

If the reference is to Wales however; then it is factually incorrect in that NZ and Wales are on opposite sides of the draw and would not meet until a semi-final at the earliest...

kuang1

JF100 wrote: »

I believe this reference is in fact to Ireland...
i.e. a loss to France in the Group stages would result in a QF with NZ (and a probable loss ... again).

If the reference is to Wales however; then it is factually incorrect in that NZ and Wales are on opposite sides of the draw and would not meet until a semi-final at the earliest...

Er...I think that's why the joke was made!

blackcard

If the first half against England is part of a masterplan to make other countries think we are one dimensional and poor, the plan is working brilliantly

LorMal

blackcard wrote: »

If the first half against England is part of a masterplan to make other countries think we are one dimensional and poor, the plan is working brilliantly

Exactly. I was getting derided on here for suggesting we are one dimensional. Our kick chase was poor and we didn't have anything else yesterday.
Hope that's the end of 'back to back 6n, 2nd in the world' nonsense. There is a lot to work on.
Sexton looks nothing like his pre-France self, our centre partnership is unconvincing, POC Toner POM SOB look unfit, hoof ball is predicable and ineffective against good teams, our line speed was pedestrian, and the no offload strategy means our attack is blunt.
Italy could beat us yet.

LorMal

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Hoof ball wins. The more we hoof the more we win.

You need to have hoofers though to get in into the opposition half. But we have them.
And you need hoof retrivers. We have them in spades.
And a defense that gives nothing away easily and holds territory. We have that too.

So looking good for us. And its no accident Joe is racking up the trophies. Passing, jinking, speedie backs are totally passé at this stage and of interest only to rugby romantics or retro afficionados. Loping second rows roaming upfield, and quick offloading and opposition halfback terrorising backrows are old school.

Joe knows what wins games, and eschews all that self indulgent rugby a surprising number of modern professional coaches are still suckered into in devising their gameplans.

Thats why we will win the world cup. He knows it himself too. Witness his famed unerring attention to detail and see who was ticking the Irish citizenship box yesterday just to have everything in order.

Hmmm....

kuang1

LorMal wrote: »

Exactly. I was getting derided on here for suggesting we are one dimensional. Our kick chase was poor and we didn't have anything else yesterday.
Hope that's the end of 'back to back 6n, 2nd in the world' nonsense. There is a lot to work on.
Sexton looks nothing like his pre-France self, our centre partnership is unconvincing, POC Toner POM SOB look unfit, hoof ball is predicable and ineffective against good teams, our line speed was pedestrian, and the no offload strategy means our attack is blunt.
Italy could beat us yet.

Ah there you are.

LorMal

kuang1 wrote: »

Ah there you are.

Talking to me again?

kuang1

LorMal wrote: »

Talking to me again?

Sure!:)
Chips on shoulders never good for anyone concerned.
But you're gonna keep it real right?!

LorMal

kuang1 wrote: »

Sure!:)
Chips on shoulders never good for anyone concerned.
But you're gonna keep it real right?!

So, I really hope we can find form. I don't care what anyone says, we need to be playing better than this at this stage if we are to give this competition a good go.

For me, Sexton looks way off. And the aimless kicking is beyond irritating at this stage. England were gaining territory every time we allowed them to run at us yesterday. So, we kept giving them the ball to have another go!

irishbucsfan

LorMal wrote: »

So, I really hope we can find form. I don't care what anyone says, we need to be playing better than this at this stage if we are to give this competition a good go.

For me, Sexton looks way off. And the aimless kicking is beyond irritating at this stage. England were gaining territory every time we allowed them to run at us yesterday. So, we kept giving them the ball to have another go!

And our try came from a great box kick that allowed us to turn over the ball on the half way line and put them under pressure deep in their own half.

It's not the face we're kicking that's the problem, it was just the execution and timing of it. We need to fix that, not move away from the kicking game.

rrpc

LorMal wrote: »

So, I really hope we can find form. I don't care what anyone says, we need to be playing better than this at this stage if we are to give this competition a good go.

For me, Sexton looks way off. And the aimless kicking is beyond irritating at this stage. England were gaining territory every time we allowed them to run at us yesterday. So, we kept giving them the ball to have another go!

A lot of players looked off. Dave Kearney being the standout to measure others by. Rory Best made some huge howlers in defence including deserting his pillar position at a ruck and allowing Tom Woods (I think) gallop through the gap he left. Conor Murray looked slow and hesitant and his box kicking was poor (the kick chase was poor too). You could blame Sexton for passes that bounced off the recipients but could blame those players for not reading the pass either. Close in passes need to be sharp to beat the intercept, so blame should be spread equally there.

There's been a lot of talk about Joe not wanting to show his hand in these warm-ups which is sensible, but what do the players do when they're on the pitch and trying not to give anything away? It must be very difficult to try and attack with nothing in the locker other than the most basic of moves.

LorMal

What do people think is happening? Ireland are keeping tons of secret moves up our sleeves while the other teams haven't thought about that and are naively giving these matches everything?

In regards to our kicking game, I would argue that's it's not just poor execution, it's also a fundamental flaw in strategy.
Yes, many of the kicks yesterday were too long and incontestable. However, there were a number of times where very hard won posisession was glibly given away by a clueless attack who couldn't think of anything to do so just kicked aimlessly.

aimee1

LorMal wrote: »

What do people think is happening? Ireland are keeping tons of secret moves up our sleeves while the other teams haven't thought about that and are naively giving these matches everything?

wales and italy looked crap last night. France just looked like france of the last 4 years and scotland looked decent, will be interesting to see how their group pans out.

I dont know what to make of england. They look really good in patches and really ordinary in others.

Ireland just looked inaccurate the last few weeks which kills us given how we like to play. But there is positives in some aspects too

Eugene Norman

LorMal wrote: »

What do people think is happening? Ireland are keeping tons of secret moves up our sleeves while the other teams haven't thought about that and are naively giving these matches everything?

In regards to our kicking game, I would argue that's it's not just poor execution, it's also a fundamental flaw in strategy.
Yes, many of the kicks yesterday were too long and incontestable. However, there were a number of times where very hard won posisession was glibly given away by a clueless attack who couldn't think of anything to do so just kicked aimlessly.

I agree with your assessment of the game yesterday but it could well be that Joe told people to not get injured first and win second. England have a tough enough game to start the World Cup and then have to play wales and Australia. Our toughest game before France is the Italy game which would be the easiest 6N game, although we could always lose it of course.

So we don't have to be where they are.

rrpc

LorMal wrote: »

What do people think is happening? Ireland are keeping tons of secret moves up our sleeves while the other teams haven't thought about that and are naively giving these matches everything?

Well Wales have never made any secret of their game plan and that hasn't changed. England, much like Wales don't do subtlety unless it's Courtney Lawes trying a 'subtle' elbow to the head. France generally spend so much time trying to pick a team that they don't have much for anything else. Italy are still working on the basics and Scotland are so pleased to have a good coach they want to use everything new they've learned now.

LorMal

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I agree with your assessment of the game yesterday but it could well be that Joe told people to not get injured first and win second. England have a tough enough game to start the World Cup and then have to play wales and Australia. Our toughest game before France is the Italy game which would be the easiest 6N game, although we could always lose it of course.

So we don't have to be where they are.

I appreciate that. But then England would have been avoiding injury too, especially given their schedule.
It was not the execution that really worries me, it is the lack of a coherent attacking strategy.
We don't offload - so what do we do instead against a solid defence ?

LorMal

aimee1 wrote: »

wales and italy looked crap last night. France just looked like france of the last 4 years and scotland looked decent, will be interesting to see how their group pans out.

I dont know what to make of england. They look really good in patches and really ordinary in others.

Ireland just looked inaccurate the last few weeks which kills us given how we like to play. But there is positives in some aspects too

I think England are coming good at the right time. They spent a long long time deciding on their centre pairing and their wingers - all looked excellent yesterday. I expect them to make the final.

rrpc

LorMal wrote: »

I appreciate that. But then England would have been avoiding injury too, especially given their schedule.

But it's England's schedule that would have had them push much harder in that game than us. Clearly they don't want injuries, but they don't have time to get up to full speed in the pool stages like we do. They didn't strike me as holding anything back in the contact areas. They had a lot of things to fix from the previous game too like their lineout.

LorMal wrote: »

It was not the execution that really worries me, it is the lack of a coherent attacking strategy.
We don't offload - so what do we do instead against a solid defence ?

We've used set piece moves in the past and we showed one in the try that POC scored. There have also been backline moves we used in the 6N to mixed effect (Murray Kinsella covered some of them at the time) and presumably we have more of those in the tank.

aimee1

LorMal wrote: »

I think England are coming good at the right time. They spent a long long time deciding on their centre pairing and their wingers - all looked excellent yesterday. I expect them to make the final.

if they can spend more time being good then ordinary in the big games they will do well. I still think their lineout has the potential to cost them though

molloyjh

LorMal wrote: »

Exactly. I was getting derided on here for suggesting we are one dimensional. Our kick chase was poor and we didn't have anything else yesterday.
Hope that's the end of 'back to back 6n, 2nd in the world' nonsense. There is a lot to work on.
Sexton looks nothing like his pre-France self, our centre partnership is unconvincing, POC Toner POM SOB look unfit, hoof ball is predicable and ineffective against good teams, our line speed was pedestrian, and the no offload strategy means our attack is blunt.
Italy could beat us yet.

I'm sorry but this is just reactionary nonsense. And please let me explain exactly why.

In all our other competitive games Ireland have shown at least 1 of 2 things. The first is strike moves. Look at Kearneys try against England in Twickenham 18 months ago or SOBs try against Scotland this year. Ireland often have set moves that they go to that are practised to within an inch of their lives. These don't have to be ball in hand moves either. Bowes try against SA is another example of a strike move. Something pre-planned and delivered with accuracy that the lads can pull out of the locker and execute well.

The second thing we've seen from Ireland regularly is an identification of opposition weaknesses to be exploited. Look at Wales in 2014 where we used a very specific type of kicking game to totally nullify them for 80 minutes. Or the France game this year where we clearly targeted Nacatacis wing because he was (and still is) defensively suspect, particularly in terms of positioning. When watching games you can often clearly see exactly what it is that Joe and the other coaches have spotted and decided to target.

These have both been regular and critical parts to Irish rugby under Joe Schmidt. We saw neither in the warm ups (2 simple line-out moves aside). The reason we didn't see them wasn't because the coaches suddenly forgot how to or were unable to come up with them. We didn't see them because the coaches didn't want us to see them. The purpose of the warm-ups was not to "shock and awe" people with our wonderful rugby skills, make a statement to the world that we're here to win it and show our hand while doing so. It was to get guys game time and improve their match fitness. And from that perspective (injuries to TOD and Trimble aside) we got pretty much exactly what we wanted from the games.

We were very one dimensional in the last few weeks because we wanted to be one dimensional. Joe himself prior to kick-off yesterday pretty much said himself that the result didn't really matter and that it was about guys putting in a performance. And as bad as the first half was there were still improvements to be seen over the previous 2 games (Bowe excluded). And the second half saw us step it up again. With 4 weeks to go to the Italy game we're not in a bad place.

I'd be incredibly worried if we continued on in the second half the same way we did in the first. Or if we were attempting a load of set plays and they just weren't coming off. But neither are the case. If we struggle against Canada and/or Romania then maybe I'll start to worry. Until then we're doing ok. We have a nice few weeks to gradually ramp up to the France game (the way the fixtures have fallen for us are perfect in that regard). I'm in no way discouraged by the last few weeks at all because it seems very clear to me that we have a hell of a lot left in the tank.