Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Is Joe Schmidt concealing his hand?

Options
1246789

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    molloyjh wrote: »
    So a very good team narrowly beat us in their home ground with what was a fairly monumental defensive effort and that is your only real evidence of there being a problem with how we play the game? And why exactly does that trump the fact that we won the 6 Nations this year and last year, as well as won all our AI games?

    In fact, we actually played well in the 2nd half of that game, and changed up our tactics...


  • Options
    #93
    stephen_n
    Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    penybont exile wrote: »
    Ireland woulld be my preference for the semi if we're good enough to get there.

    Not likely to happen though ...... QF exit to the AB's beckons.

    I still think you vastly overrate the French ability to overcome an extremely poor coach.


  • Options
    #94
    kuang1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,438 ✭✭✭kuang1


    @penybont...
    Not cool to misquote anyone my friend.
    You replaced:
    "If that 6N match in cardiff was to be played over infinitely, with no change to team selections or referee, I can assure you we would not lose it infinitely. Wales peaked that day. That's them at their very, very best. We certainly were not. Yes I think Barnes had a shocker, but wasn't the sole reason we were defeated. Replay that match over and over again and either team would win at random."

    With:

    "Blah blah .... Referee .... Blah blah".

    Not cool sir.

    (Do it again and I'm telling my mammy!)


  • Options
    #95
    penybont exile
    Registered Users Posts: 732 ✭✭✭penybont exile


    kuang1 wrote: »
    @penybont...
    Not cool to misquote anyone my friend.
    You replaced:
    "If that 6N match in cardiff was to be played over infinitely, with no change to team selections or referee, I can assure you we would not lose it infinitely. Wales peaked that day. That's them at their very, very best. We certainly were not. Yes I think Barnes had a shocker, but wasn't the sole reason we were defeated. Replay that match over and over again and either team would win at random."

    With:

    "Blah blah .... Referee .... Blah blah".

    Not cool sir.

    (Do it again and I'm telling my mammy!)
    No offence .....

    Scanned and saw ..... Lose, referee, shocker etc.

    ...... Couldn't resist myself.

    If it wasn't you it could have been umpteen other posts here.


  • Options
    #96
    penybont exile
    Registered Users Posts: 732 ✭✭✭penybont exile


    stephen_n wrote: »
    I still think you vastly overrate the French ability to overcome an extremely poor coach.
    Not really - they've previous ......

    ...... And it's players over coach for me any day of the week.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    kuang1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,438 ✭✭✭kuang1


    penybont exile wrote: »
    ...... Couldn't resist myself.

    That's quite the confession!!! :D:D:D:D:D:D


  • Options
    #98
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,961 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    penybont exile wrote: »
    Ireland woulld be my preference for the semi if we're good enough to get there.

    Not likely to happen though ...... QF exit to the AB's beckons.

    Wales' pool doesn't cross over with the ABs pool though :p


  • Options
    #99
    blackcard
    Registered Users Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭blackcard


    Neil3030 wrote: »
    General gist of OP underlined above - conservative rugby is fine for the Six Nations, but won't win the RWC.

    I'm afraid the burden of proof is very much with you, blackcard; when has tryscoring proven the difference in the RWC format? When have bonus points ever proven crucial in group stages? When have knockout games rewarded open, attacking rugby?

    History suggests the opposite. Added to the fact that there are no BPs in the Six Nations, Schmidt's general style of play as Irish head coach is completely justified, imo.

    I just think we will have to do some level of offloading in the tackle to open up good defensive systems like the Welsh have, not suggesting we offload blindly or anything like that


  • Options
    #100
    Teferi
    Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    penybont exile wrote: »
    Not likely to happen though ...... QF exit to the AB's beckons.

    :rolleyes:


  • Options
    #101
    .ak
    Registered Users Posts: 30,308 Mod ✭✭✭✭.ak


    Personally I love all this naysaying.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Ah the stage is set for one of two things to happen. The first is that we continue our current form against the French, get past a tough but manageable Argie side and make it to the SF for the first time ever. From there who knows. The second is that the French revert to type and break our feckin' hearts again by doing a number on us, whereby we end up at a stage in the competition we've never gotten past against an opponent we've never beaten. Plus ça change and all that. The first follows current form whereas the latter doesn't.

    From a purely analytical point of view the French don't worry me all that much. For all their strengths (and they've a good few) they simply aren't coached well enough. The 2 games in the last 2 6 Nations that we lost saw our opposition put in fantastic displays defensively. When under the cosh for periods they trusted their systems and each other and as a unit they prevailed. If there's a side least likely to do that in the top 10 it's the French. And if they start Michalak, well then that just improves our chances dramatically. He may have been given a free ride against England, but he won't be against us. If we have a full squad out I'd back us to scrape it.

    That said it would be utterly foolish to expect this to come to pass......


  • Options
    #103
    oneils23
    Registered Users Posts: 30 ✭oneils23


    France seem to be coming good for the World Cup as they always seem to. If we don't beat them and finish second in our pool, I would still give us a great chance of beating NZ. We are a match for anyone on our day, especially when we're going in as the underdogs


  • Options
    #104
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,336 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    molloyjh wrote: »
    That said it would be utterly foolish to expect this to come to pass......

    What gets me is we've all be around long enough that the poor form in the WC is what we fear/prettymuchexpect to come to pass.

    On paper, we should top the group, get past a competitive but straightforward quarter, and it's 50/50 in the semi.

    Sometimes, I can't get past my innate pessimism driven into me during the 90s and early 00s, followed by choking during the latter 00s. As much as my head tells me we ****ing have this group, and if we play to our strengths we have a semi within our reach.

    That said, if there was a coach to make me get over myself, it'd be Schmidt.


  • Options
    #105
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »
    What gets me is we've all be around long enough that the poor form in the WC is what we fear/prettymuchexpect to come to pass.

    On paper, we should top the group, get past a competitive but straightforward quarter, and it's 50/50 in the semi.

    Sometimes, I can't get past my innate pessimism driven into me during the 90s and early 00s, followed by choking during the latter 00s. As much as my head tells me we ****ing have this group, and if we play to our strengths we have a semi within our reach.

    That said, if there was a coach to make me get over myself, it'd be Schmidt.

    We don't have the group though. We are favourites, and rightly so. But we don't have it.

    Having realistic expectations (as opposed to overly optimistic or pessimistic ones) is the way to go. France are still a talented side and they still have it in them to beat us. And if that happens we won't be favourites against NZ. However France could just as easily lose 2 games in the pool as well (Italy and us). It's still up in the air, we just have good reason to be optimistic. Just as long as we don't get carried away with that optimism.


  • Options
    #106
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Let's be fair here, France could obviously beat us. However we are going into that game as favourites. Yes, just like NZ went in as favourites against France in 99 and 07 and it could go tits up, but we'll be favourites and we'll be favourites for a reason.


  • Options
    #107
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,336 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Having realistic expectations (as opposed to overly optimistic or pessimistic ones) is the way to go. France are still a talented side and they still have it in them to beat us. And if that happens we won't be favourites against NZ. However France could just as easily lose 2 games in the pool as well (Italy and us). It's still up in the air, we just have good reason to be optimistic. Just as long as we don't get carried away with that optimism.

    I don't doubt the team are exactly in that frame of mind. Realistic, take each opposition seriously. They're far more solid than I am.

    I'll be a quivering mess come Oct 4th and 11th. They won't. I've watched too many France games, and they're good enough to pip us on their day.

    Realistically, I'm curious as to how much our (as fans) expectations affect the team. I hope 100% not (and expect it's slightly less than that but not much at all).


  • Options
    #108
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    .ak wrote: »
    Personally I love all this naysaying.

    Yes, I think it is good to challenge the party line sometimes. I hate it when the hype escalates and group think sets in.
    Of course Ireland can win and I think they have a decent chance of a really good performance with Joe as coach, a relatively benign draw, the WC being held locally and the team in good form coming into the competition.
    However, I start to get niggled when hope turns to expectation and when no criticism or objectivity is tolerated in debate. The ones who will hear no criticism of the tactics or the team now will be the first (and most vociferous) to condemn Joe and the players if we go out at an early stage.


  • Options
    #109
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    LorMal wrote: »
    Yes, I think it is good to challenge the party line sometimes. I hate it when the hype escalates and group think sets in.
    Of course Ireland can win and I think they have a decent chance of a really good performance with Joe as coach, a relatively benign draw, the WC being held locally and the team in good form coming into the competition.
    However, I start to get niggled when hope turns to expectation and when no criticism or objectivity is tolerated in debate. The ones who will hear no criticism of the tactics or the team now will be the first (and most vociferous) to condemn Joe and the players if we go out at an early stage.

    I dunno

    I think we've our best ever chance to perform well at a wc than before.

    I'd love to see us out of our group into a quarter, and a semi

    I genuinely find it hard to believe we could make the final

    I just can't imagine that


  • Options
    #110
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    LorMal wrote: »
    Yes, I think it is good to challenge the party line sometimes. I hate it when the hype escalates and group think sets in.
    Of course Ireland can win and I think they have a decent chance of a really good performance with Joe as coach, a relatively benign draw, the WC being held locally and the team in good form coming into the competition.
    However, I start to get niggled when hope turns to expectation and when no criticism or objectivity is tolerated in debate. The ones who will hear no criticism of the tactics or the team now will be the first (and most vociferous) to condemn Joe and the players if we go out at an early stage.

    That's some fancy time travel shenanigans you've got going on there predicting who will say what if we go out early. There's a happy medium to be struck between the wildly optimistic and the dour pessimistic. And that is that we are in the best position we've ever been in. That's a matter of absolute fact. We've never gone into a RWC as 6 Nations champions, let alone back to back champions having beaten every side bar 1 of the top sides in the world.

    Is our game what some expected from Joe? No. Is it working? Yes. Have we seen much evidence that it won't work in the RWC? No, some but not much. There's nothing at all wrong with being optimistic about our chances. And some of the comments on this thread about being "found out" or not having the game to do well at a RWC is more unfounded than those being overly optimistic. It's taking the exception as the guide to future form and not actual form.

    That's not at all to say that we don't have to vary our game. We do. And I firmly believe that we will. We've varied it from game to game, just subtly. We need more of that combined with the accuracy we've come to expect. We've become a hard team to beat. Not impossible, but hard. Nothing wrong with pointing that out, and even enjoying it.


  • Options
    #111
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    Its all this 'back to back champions having beaten every side bar 1 of the top sides in the world' stuff that gets me. Doesn't matter one iota. If we play hoof ball we will get stuffed.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    kuang1
    Registered Users Posts: 3,438 ✭✭✭kuang1


    LorMal wrote: »
    Its all this 'back to back champions having beaten every side bar 1 of the top sides in the world' stuff that gets me. Doesn't matter one iota. If we play hoof ball we will get stuffed.

    Think you've proven beyond all reasonable doubt now that either a) you don't know what you're talking or b) you're trolling.

    Either way I ain't engaging with you anymore.

    Good luck to you.


  • Options
    #113
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    LorMal wrote: »
    If we play hoof ball we will get stuffed.

    Have you ever watched a World Cup??

    "Hoof ball" has won it more than once.


  • Options
    #114
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    kuang1 wrote: »
    Think you've proven beyond all reasonable doubt now that either a) you don't know what you're talking or b) you're trolling.

    Either way I ain't engaging with you anymore.

    Good luck to you.

    Don't be getting upset. Its only a chat about rugby. I don't know anything more or less than anyone else - we are all speculating. I hope we stuff the French.


  • Options
    #115
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Have you ever watched a World Cup??

    "Hoof ball" has won it more than once.

    Yeah - I hope not this time though.


  • Options
    #116
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,345 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    LorMal wrote: »
    Yeah - I hope not this time though.

    I hope whatever style we choose to play wins it to be honest...

    I share some reservations about Ireland's playing style in the 6N (though I also think some of the criticisms were overblown). But I really have no time for this whole "oh we'll be lucky to get anything" bollocksology. Ireland are favourites to top the group and they are favourites for a reason.


  • Options
    #117
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    I hope whatever style we choose to play wins it to be honest...

    I share some reservations about Ireland's playing style in the 6N (though I also think some of the criticisms were overblown). But I really have no time for this whole "oh we'll be lucky to get anything" bollocksology. Ireland are favourites to top the group and they are favourites for a reason.

    Absolutely. My only point (which seems to be upsetting people for some reason) is that I think we will need to add another dimension to our play. I think France are improving and will be a far better side again by the time we play them.
    I worry about kicking away possession to the likes of Huget, Fofana and Nakaitaki. Plus they have the grunt up front to match us.
    So, I would hpe we can bring a bit if inventiveness and guile to the party when the game opens up. Otherwise, I think they will beat us.


  • Options
    #118
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    LorMal wrote: »
    Its all this 'back to back champions having beaten every side bar 1 of the top sides in the world' stuff that gets me. Doesn't matter one iota. If we play hoof ball we will get stuffed.

    So facts annoy you is basically what you are saying. Because that's all that sentence is. You seem to think you know better than a coach who has won at least 1 trophy every single season he has been here in Ireland, including those back to back 6 Nations trophies. Something Ireland hasn't done (outright) since the late 40s.

    You may not like it but we are winning when it counts. You need to get a handle on the favourites tag. It's not something to be afraid of.

    Also I wouldn't worry about kicking down Nakaitakis wing. The guy has been found out time and again positionally. He can and should be targetted in that area because we will get change from it.


  • Options
    #119
    rrpc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    LorMal wrote: »
    Absolutely. My only point (which seems to be upsetting people for some reason) is that I think we will need to add another dimension to our play. I think France are improving and will be a far better side again by the time we play them.
    I worry about kicking away possession to the likes of Huget, Fofana and Nakaitaki. Plus they have the grunt up front to match us.
    So, I would hpe we can bring a bit if inventiveness and guile to the party when the game opens up. Otherwise, I think they will beat us.
    You're descriptions of our kicking game as "hoofing it" or "kicking away possession" are hugely reductive. Our kicking game has been far more nuanced and accurate than you would have us believe by your choice of words.

    We only ever kick to gain both field position and possession. Contestable garryowens, chips over the defence and a kick chase to put the receiver under pressure and turn over ball or get a line out in the opposition half are just some of the kicking tactics we've used.

    But not the only tactics. Once we get into the opposition half, we change tack and use mauls, one out runners and loop plays to get around the defence. Never mind the kick to a winger that Madigan and FitzGerald carried out with such accuracy.

    The game very seldom 'opens up' against top defences.


  • Options
    #120
    JF100
    Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭JF100


    I see Scrumley in the IT got the Saturday Team Sheet in time to go to press at 1 in the morning...
    JS is very considerate in being able to work to newspaper deadlines.

    Pretty much the A1 team I'd say...
    Interesting.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    LorMal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭LorMal


    molloyjh wrote: »
    So facts annoy you is basically what you are saying. Because that's all that sentence is. You seem to think you know better than a coach who has won at least 1 trophy every single season he has been here in Ireland, including those back to back 6 Nations trophies. Something Ireland hasn't done (outright) since the late 40s.

    You may not like it but we are winning when it counts. You need to get a handle on the favourites tag. It's not something to be afraid of.

    Also I wouldn't worry about kicking down Nakaitakis wing. The guy has been found out time and again positionally. He can and should be targetted in that area because we will get change from it.

    Don't be getting your panties in a bunch there JH. It's alright, Ireland will win the World Cup, okay? Hooray.


Advertisement