Mediterranean migrants- specific questions

KingBrian2

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

No they aren't, the Irish state is for the Irish people, no one else, we owe the world nothing, PC multiculturalism doent change that fact.

True but we have to work within the confines of EU legal procedures.

rgossip30

Nodin wrote: »

The posts in this thread are in relation to the Syrian refugees.

So I rephrase . Do you believe that bogus Syrian refugees should be given state benefits . There will undoublty be many who pretend to be from Syria.

rgossip30

Frank Grimes wrote: »

If they are given leave to remain then yes, I believe they are entitled to whatever benefits that grants them. I don't see how this relates to the post you quoted however, although I can take a wild guess.

Your opiinion. So you if you are a tax payer do not mind paying for this .That is fine as long as you do not expect the majority who disgree to pay .

Frank Grimes

rgossip30 wrote: »

Your opiinion. So you if you are a tax payer do not mind paying for this .That is fine as long as you do not expect the majority who disgree to pay .

It doesn't matter if they agree or disagree, people who are entitled to state benefits receive them regardless of what peoples' opinions are. If you have a problem with it vote for someone who will change it.

Nodin

rgossip30 wrote: »

So I rephrase . Do you believe that bogus Syrian refugees should be given state benefits . There will undoublty be many who pretend to be from Syria.

But if they aren't Syrian, they wouldn't have been brought here under that program. You might state more clearly your point.

KingBrian2

Nodin wrote: »

But if they aren't Syrian, they wouldn't have been brought here under that program. You might state more clearly your point.

Afghani's and Iraqis could be included in the figures and lest not forget the Kurds and Palestinians are looking for statehood. We also have other regions that see smuggling rife as in southern Spain and non EU countries in the Balkans. Just because your Muslim does not make you a Syrian.

Nodin

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Afghani's and Iraqis could be included in the figures and lest not forget the Kurds and Palestinians are looking for statehood. We also have other regions that see smuggling rife as in southern Spain and non EU countries in the Balkans. Just because your Muslim does not make you a Syrian.

We were talking about the 129 Syrians who arrived here, or that was the impression I was under.

KingBrian2

Nodin wrote: »

We were talking about the 129 Syrians who arrived here, or that was the impression I was under.

They are fine most of them are fleeing Islamism so the sooner they get set up the better.

View

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

No they aren't, the Irish state is for the Irish people, no one else, we owe the world nothing, PC multiculturalism doent change that fact.

No it isn't. It is for any and all that are legally resident here, or have the right to be, in accordance with the laws of Ireland and/or the EU (if EU law applies) OR in accordance with any international treaties that we have voluntarily chosen to enter into such as the UN convention(s) on refugees.

rgossip30

Nodin wrote: »

But if they aren't Syrian, they wouldn't have been brought here under that program. You might state more clearly your point.

The one line wonder returns . Who is we by the way ?
You must be seeing life through a haze. I was not refering to the refugee program rather those that just turn up to claim asylum . You know this .

Frank Grimes

rgossip30 wrote: »

You must be seeing life through a haze. I was not refering to the refugee program rather those that just turn up to claim asylum . You know this .

You started off talking about refugees, not asylum seekers, until your target shifted.

K-9

Mod:

Attack the post, not the poster. Thank you.

Lockstep

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Let me be clear so my words are not going to be used against me. European ministers have discussed the threat of terrorism and of returning fighters from the Arab states. The terrorist ringleader that hit Paris was a Moroccan that entered the continent and the media have reported the relative ease by which foreign fighters can travel across the EU to fight from Belgium, France & Britain to Turkey. Hysteria and distortions is not the best approach to have when handling Europe's external borders.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20151120/paris-attackers-refugees-migrants

https://www.malaysiakini.com/news/323097

The Paris attacks were not carried out by Syrians: all the identified attackers were European citizens, including Abaaoud who was born in Belgium. "Belgian-Moroccan" or "Of Moroccan descent" would be accurate terms. To ignore his Belgian birth and citizenship is ridiculous as these are far more relevent than his Moroccan ancestry.

Likewise, your second link is irrelevent: it concerns a Malaysian national who flew to Turkey and onto Syria. Nothing to do with the EU.

Lockstep

rgossip30 wrote: »

You are repeating this issue about immigration and still not making the distinction between those that come to work and those that claim asylum.

Considering refugees are a subset of immigrants, it's fairly logical that ignorance on refugees would be matched with ignorance on immigration.

At any rate, in Britain, the public are just as misinformed on refugees

rgossip30 wrote: »

I suggest you look at the German CDU conference in 2010 which shows a different Angela Merkel . Germany never allowed free access to new EU members to work in 2005 .This was not open to them until 2011 . Those that speak with forked tongue !!

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed

What is your point here?

Lockstep

rgossip30 wrote: »

So I rephrase . Do you believe that bogus Syrian refugees should be given state benefits . There will undoublty be many who pretend to be from Syria.

This claim has appeared a few times in the thread in an attempt at straw clutching. The UNHCR has already come estimated that half of European arrivals are Syrian, a figure which is matched by the nationality of those claiming asylum in Germany for October. Doubtless, some will try to claim asylum but do you really think an ethnic Albanian Kosovar can convincingly pass themselves off as a Syrian Arab to immigration officials? Once you factor in Afghanis, Iraqis and Eritreans, this equates to over 80% of arrivals who have a very high chance of being granted asylum.
Last year, refugee numbers were in the tens of thousand, this year, they're close to a million. Do you think this has to do with the deteriorating situation in the Middle East (particularly Syria) or do you think that "many" people are pretending to be Syrian and taking the extremely dangerous Mediterranean crossing in order to claim the dole?

BoJack Horseman

Lockstep wrote: »

Last year, refugee numbers were in the tens of thousand, this year, they're close to a million. Do you think this has to do with the deteriorating situation in the Middle East (particularly Syria)

No.
2015 was the quietest year thus far of the Syrian civil war.

The preceding years were more frenzied & fluid.
much of the country is in a sort of stalemate.
The increase in activity since Russia entering the fray 2 months ago did not cause the million plus influx.

KingBrian2

Lockstep wrote: »

The Paris attacks were not carried out by Syrians: all the identified attackers were European citizens, including Abaaoud who was born in Belgium. "Belgian-Moroccan" or "Of Moroccan descent" would be accurate terms. To ignore his Belgian birth and citizenship is ridiculous as these are far more relevent than his Moroccan ancestry.

Likewise, your second link is irrelevent: it concerns a Malaysian national who flew to Turkey and onto Syria. Nothing to do with the EU.

Europe's immigration policy enables terrorists to travel abroad and take part in armed combat. Terrorism is not confined to Islamism although it is the most notable threat other forms of terrorism such as separatism and narco-terrorism still exist. Europe is seen as a good place to become equipped with an arsenal of weapons to launch lethal attacks across the world.

We have to be aware of the threats and the fact that Europe can be used as a conduit for attacks against America, Russia, Horn of Africa & Afghanistan. The smugglers in southern Italy get off scot free as they bring in all these refugees leaving the rest of Italian peninsular in ruins as we see across our television screens.

Lockstep

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

No.
2015 was the quietest year thus far of the Syrian civil war.
The preceding years were more frenzied & fluid.
much of the country is in a sort of stalemate.
The increase in activity since Russia entering the fray 2 months ago did not cause the million plus influx.

Have you a source for this?

At any rate, the refugee flux is more complicated than this: refugees languish in Middle Eastern refugee camps (none of whom apply the 1951 Refugee Convention to Syrian refugees), and are prevented from working. As such, the longer they stay there, the less able they are to survive, especially as they burn through any resources they brought with them from Syria.

Critical in this is that the World Food Program cut the aid to Syrian refugees in 2015
Likewise, refugees are not just fleeing the conflict, they're fleeing the brutality of groups like Assad and ISIS.

A host of news agencies highlight that Syrians are fleeing in record numbers in 2015.
The Huffington Post
The Guardian
International Business Times

Lockstep

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Europe's immigration policy enables terrorists to travel abroad and take part in armed combat. Terrorism is not confined to Islamism although it is the most notable threat other forms of terrorism such as separatism and narco-terrorism still exist. Europe is seen as a good place to become equipped with an arsenal of weapons to launch lethal attacks across the world.

We have to be aware of the threats and the fact that Europe can be used as a conduit for attacks against America, Russia, Horn of Africa & Afghanistan. The smugglers in southern Italy get off scot free as they bring in all these refugees leaving the rest of Italian peninsular in ruins as we see across our television screens.

Yes and so far, those who have committed terrorist attacks for ISIS within Europe have been European citizens. So the issue has not been from European citizens rather than immigrants.

You keep changing the goalposts: when your claims are disproven, you ignore them and bring up something else.

KingBrian2

Lockstep wrote: »

Yes and so far, those who have committed terrorist attacks for ISIS within Europe have been European citizens. So the issue has not been from European citizens rather than immigrants.

You keep changing the goalposts: when your claims are disproven, you ignore them and bring up something else.

The refugees are not fleeing Assad or the Syrian civil war or even Turkish PM. They are fleeing poverty. Palestinians have no state. Gaza is besieged by Israel and millions are fleeing to Europe where they will be greeted as living people. They are granted citizenship as they should be. The terrorists snatch people up in Europe and give them weapons to carry out their indiscriminate war against their fellow citizens. Most of the hardline Jihadists are British, French & Belgium Nationals with links to the Arab world.

BoJack Horseman

Lockstep wrote: »

Have you a source for this?

Having trouble posting the link, will try when at a PC....

but taking 2014 to this year as an example, the total deaths in that war is down 35% YOY....

- 70k total deaths from the conflict in 2014 vs 50k up to November this year.
- Civilian deaths in 2015 are approximately half the number in 2013.

It's interesting that despite the war being much more intense last year, the proportion of illegal migrants being Syrian was 1/5th of total...
Now its over 50%.

It's hard to not consider it particularly relevent to Germany's unilateral carte blanche to anyone who said they were Syrian.

KingBrian2

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

It's interesting that despite the war being much more intense last year, the proportion of illegal migrants being Syrian was 1/5th of total...
Now its over 50%.

Because the numbers coming in are not linked to the war in Syria. There are more pronounced reasons these people are emigrating to Europe. The UN specify that the Syrian conflict is one of the reasons for people emigrating. Poverty is a huge reason and so is the threat of terrorism and lack of investment in these countries. Why would investors provide capital to a warzone!

The crux of the issue is that people are searching for safety in Europe and European Nations cannot provide for them due to the sheer numbers involved. A great way to stop this is by reducing the flow of weapons to the militias that are committing most of the endemic sectarian violence in the country. This will slow down the migrations and another helpful method of halting the flow is arresting the boat smugglers.

K-9

I suppose over the last year or so it has become more apparent that this is probably going to go on for years so that could have a big bearing.

BoJack Horseman

K-9 wrote: »

I suppose over the last year or so it has become more apparent that this is probably going to go on for years so that could have a big bearing.

Or that any Tom, Dick & Ahmed with a dodgy Aleppo library card can enter almost at will.

(remembering that one of the 9 perps who carried out the Paris attacks entered the EU on a bogus ID)

Lockstep

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Or that any Tom, Dick & Ahmed with a dodgy Aleppo library card can enter almost at will.

(remembering that one of the 9 perps who carried out the Paris attacks entered the EU on a bogus ID)

No they can't. There are certainly migrants posing as Syrian refugees to gain access but according to Frontex, the majority of fake Syrian passports are bought by Syrians themselves , given the difficulties in obtaining a passport during a civil war.

Are you referring to the Ahmad al-Mohammad passport? This was found during the attack, not on a terrorist.
So far, there's no evidence that this actually was him
Why would a suicide bomber be so insistent on bringing a passport to his death? That this was a deliberate plant has already been suggested by the
German Minister of the Interior as do French intelligence officials and the German Defence Minister

Lockstep

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Having trouble posting the link, will try when at a PC....

but taking 2014 to this year as an example, the total deaths in that war is down 35% YOY....

- 70k total deaths from the conflict in 2014 vs 50k up to November this year.
- Civilian deaths in 2015 are approximately half the number in 2013.

Is that from Wikipedia ? Total deaths from January to November in 2015 are lower than 2014 or 2013 but higher than 2012, even before December casualties are factored in. So it hardly backs your claim that "2015 was the quietest year thus far of the Syrian civil war."

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

It's interesting that despite the war being much more intense last year, the proportion of illegal migrants being Syrian was 1/5th of total...
Now its over 50%.

As the Guardian, IBT and Huffington Post article I linked to above show, it is due to a few different factors, primarily The war's continuation without any end in sight, their inability to provide for themselves in neighboring countries and the heavy cuts to the WFP budget in 2015 leaving many Syrians hungry.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

It's hard to not consider it particularly relevent to Germany's unilateral carte blanche to anyone who said they were Syrian.

Not really: Germany suspended the Dublin Agreement at the end of August at a time of exponentially increasing refugee numbers : Germany's actions were a response, not a cause, of the refugee crisis.

Lockstep

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The refugees are not fleeing Assad or the Syrian civil war or even Turkish PM. They are fleeing poverty. Palestinians have no state. Gaza is besieged by Israel and millions are fleeing to Europe where they will be greeted as living people. They are granted citizenship as they should be. The terrorists snatch people up in Europe and give them weapons to carry out their indiscriminate war against their fellow citizens. Most of the hardline Jihadists are British, French & Belgium Nationals with links to the Arab world.

Citation needed: out of the main groups crossing the Mediterranean, the success rate for claiming asylum is 98% for Syrians, 88% for Iraqis, 87% for Eritreans and 70% for Afhgans. They would not be granted asylum if they were merely seeking poverty. That's why just 1% of Albanians have their asylum claims accepted.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Because the numbers coming in are not linked to the war in Syria. There are more pronounced reasons these people are emigrating to Europe. The UN specify that the Syrian conflict is one of the reasons for people emigrating. Poverty is a huge reason and so is the threat of terrorism and lack of investment in these countries. Why would investors provide capital to a warzone!

The crux of the issue is that people are searching for safety in Europe and European Nations cannot provide for them due to the sheer numbers involved. A great way to stop this is by reducing the flow of weapons to the militias that are committing most of the endemic sectarian violence in the country. This will slow down the migrations and another helpful method of halting the flow is arresting the boat smugglers.

Again, citation needed. If Syrians, Iraqis, Eritreans and Afghans were merely fleeing povery, their asylum success rate would be much, much lower.

View

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Europe's immigration policy enables terrorists to travel abroad and take part in armed combat.

Europe doesn't have an immigration policy. That's up to each individual member state.

Also, immigration policies do not enable people to travel abroad. They focus on immigration not on whether people travel abroad. And European countries won't restrict people travelling abroad unless they know of very good grounds to do so for specific individuals. They aren't going to rebuild the iron curtain around the EU to keep you happy.

View

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

(remembering that one of the 9 perps who carried out the Paris attacks entered the EU on a bogus ID)

Given that the bogus passport was apparently a real passport issued under a false name and that it was checked on multiple occasions (five I believe), it was obviously good enough to be used to pass through normal security checks without causing alarm bells to go off.

Short of refusing to accept all passports, lest one of them be fake, it is very hard to see what realistic alternative action could have been taken in a situation such as this.

rgossip30

Lockstep wrote: »

This claim has appeared a few times in the thread in an attempt at straw clutching. The UNHCR has already come estimated that half of European arrivals are Syrian, a figure which is matched by the nationality of those claiming asylum in Germany for October. Doubtless, some will try to claim asylum but do you really think an ethnic Albanian Kosovar can convincingly pass themselves off as a Syrian Arab to immigration officials? Once you factor in Afghanis, Iraqis and Eritreans, this equates to over 80% of arrivals who have a very high chance of being granted asylum.
Last year, refugee numbers were in the tens of thousand, this year, they're close to a million. Do you think this has to do with the deteriorating situation in the Middle East (particularly Syria) or do you think that "many" people are pretending to be Syrian and taking the extremely dangerous Mediterranean crossing in order to claim the dole?

I never siad anything about figures . I just the posed the question but if you wish to orate do so .