Mediterranean migrants- specific questions

View

gallag wrote: »

Well in my eyes they are not British because they did not identify as British, they hate British values and way of life, and they exploded themselves on public transport to kill as many British people who they hate as possible.

Who is or who isn't British depends on what Parliament in the UK so decides. It doesn't depend on how British terrorists regard themselves (be they members of the self-styled IRA or self-styled "Islamist" death-cult), nor on how you do either.

You are not disputing the sovereign right of Parliament in the UK to make laws for the UK, are you?

Frank Grimes

gallag wrote: »

Well in my eyes they are not British because they did not identify as British, they hate British values and way of life, and they exploded themselves on public transport to kill as many British people who they hate as possible.

The ones I was referring to were British regardless of whether you think so or not. The other poster wasn't talking about them specifically (in ohter posts) either hence me asking them to clarify what they mean.

JPNelsforearm

View wrote: »

That is obvious nonsense. As all humans can inter-breed that means we are all one species. Also, no one has ever claimed the British Isles as being a regional evolutionary centre for mankind. Homo By Jingo is entirely your own invention. :-)

All dogs can interbreed, no once claims different breeds of dog dont exist or Tigers for example.https://www.google.ie/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=different%20species%20of%20tigers
You either believe in evolution and the differences it brings or you believe humans are somehow exempt from its effects as a species, which is a religious/communist argument.

I never claimed the British Isles were an evolutionary center for mankind, I claimed it was an evolutionary center for the majority inhabitants currently residing there.

None of the above alters that mankind is not indigenous to the British Isles. Nor indeed is it particularly relevant since it ignores pre-modern times. An "invention" such as farming has had a far greater impact on mankind than most modern discoveries, yet you won't find the original farmers in any gallery of Nobel prize winners. Nor will you find the Arab & Indian mathematicians whose works form the foundations of the math we use today to underpin our daily lives.

But the various people that make up Britain are indigenous to the British Isles. If they want to dilute and hand over their land to people who outbreed them thats fine, but Britain will stop being Britiain, a nation is only its people, moving someone from Brazzaville to Brighton does not change the evolutionary/ethnic heritage of that person, you cannot just swap people and expect continued progress, look at the collapse of Rome.
And what happened to Arabia and India? Look at the rates of inbreeding in the Arab world, the regressive religion, they have regressed intellectually and culturally.

The U.K. has been running a very liberal immigration policy for decades. That's their right as a sovereign nation and it is entirely a matter for the UK, so it really is none of our business. We aren't going to rejoin the UK just so you can alter their sovereign decisions.

It does affect us as we have common travel, I cited the transferring of FGM from Britain to Ireland as one problem, but if 2k women being mutilated in the name of religion is fine with you, grand. We dont need to join the UK to stop it, just control who enters our country.

Ireland has never controlled its own borders. We have had, at best, partial control in modern times. Likewise the UK with us. So also in the various regional open border areas that have existed throughout European history (eg Nordic, Austro-Hungarian, (European) Ottoman/Byzantine, Russian, Polish-Lithuanian, (Arabic and non-Arabic) Spain, (Germanic) Holy Roman Empire, (Original) Roman Empire etc). There are almost no borders that have remained unchanged in the last hundred years, much less controlled (Indeed so often do borders change that the RoI-NI one is actually now one of the older ones). All modern Europeans are products of those open and largely uncontrolled borders, yet I doubt you'd persuade many Europeans that their people are the lesser because of them.

And we were occupied for over 800 years because we did not control our own borders. How did all those borders change, war. How many civilisations, languages, cultures etc died because of those border changes? Look at all the diversity of peoples and culture destroyed because they could not unite/control their borders. Who wants a monoglot world, with monoglot ethnicity, cultures? Its a dystopian vision of the future.

gallag

So, to be clear, if a lad is born to two Nigerian parents in London, has 4 Nigerian grand parents and 8 Nigerian great grand parents and completely self identifies as Nigerian with plans to relocate to Nigeria once his father retires from his job, he also despises the British culture and hated the British way of life and people. You are telling me he has no option but to be considered British because a civil servant signed a form somewhere and all his cultural identity and self ambition mean nothing? Sort of like the Catholic Church, once your signed up that's that?

Frank Grimes

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

It does affect us as we have common travel, I cited the transferring of FGM from Britain to Ireland as one problem, but if 2k women being mutilated in the name of religion is fine with you, grand. We dont need to join the UK to stop it, just control who enters our country.

You keep saying this but you don't ever seem to clarify what you mean exactly. Who should or should not be allowed enter?

JPNelsforearm

Frank Grimes wrote: »

You keep saying this but you don't ever seem to clarify what you mean exactly. Who should or should not be allowed enter?

Anyone with an infectious or inheritable/debilitating genetic disease, any aged or enfeebled people, any people of of low intellect/incapable of caring for themselves and are here solely to live off the state. Uneducated and unskilled people(we have enough of those here between the long term unemployed and travellers).
Any Islamists(the Halawa clan would be an example) or any other religious supremacists(we have just thrown of the Roman Catholic yoke, who import more of the same?). Anyone who comes here expressly to work against the Irish people through their pronouncements or actions(see any of George Soros's open society affiliated "think thanks") the likes of certain Trinity college professers and groups that arise out of their lobbying efforts(refugee council/immigrant council for example).

That would be my take on it, saying that, I'd welcome anyone into the country who is all of the above to holiday, enjoy the place, even to debate and air their views or pass on their perspective, freedom of speech and a robust exchange of ideas is essential for a society to flourish. But, that is separate from degrading the nation by willingly inviting in a foreign people and culture and paying for it live alongside your own, when your own culture and language still have not recovered from a long history of colonialism.

Frank Grimes

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Anyone with an infectious or inheritable/debilitating genetic disease, any aged or enfeebled people, any people of of low intellect/incapable of caring for themselves and are here solely to live off the state. Uneducated and unskilled people(we have enough of those here between the long term unemployed and travellers).
Any Islamists(the Halawa clan would be an example) or any other religious supremacists(we have just thrown of the Roman Catholic yoke, who import more of the same?).

How would you control all of this, particularly given that we're in the EU? Non-EU immigration is regulated here so unskilled/educated people wouldn't really have much of a chance of getting in apart from asylum seekers/refugees.

Anyone who comes here expressly to work against the Irish people through their pronouncements or actions(see any of George Soros's open society affiliated "think thanks") the likes of certain Trinity college professers and groups that arise out of their lobbying efforts(refugee council/immigrant council for example).

How are these NGOs working "against the Irish people"?

But, that is separate from degrading the nation by willingly inviting in a foreign people and culture and paying for it live alongside your own, when your own culture and language still have not recovered from a long history of colonialism.

Are you talking about any "foreign people/culture" specifically or just anyone who doesn't fit your definition of Irish?

rgossip30

Lockstep wrote: »

This has already been debated extensively in the thread if you back through it.

As shown already, the European Commission predicts that the refugees will have a small but positive impact on the EU's economy, even if all the arrivals were low-skilled.
Lebanon which has taken in vast numbers of refugees has seen refugees as an economic benefit , stimulating domestic demand and encouraging exports.

The CREAM report highlights that while overall non-EU nationals in the UK are a net drain, this is not the case for those who have arrived since 1999.The Guardian highlights that this is due to those being in the country beforehand not having their contribution factored in: only their drain.
Similarly, Denmark saw no negative economic impact with its refugees from the 1990s.
Likewise the head of the Migration and Development Initiative at the Center for Global Development, a Washington think tank note that “There’s not any credible research that I know of that in the medium and long term that refugees are anything but a hugely profitable investment"


I'm not expert in economics nor migration so I'd be hesitant to pluck a figure out of the air in terms of how many we can take in. Relative to our population size though, I'd see few problems with the 5,000 that the government are offering asylum to.


No, I just look at evidence (such as the above) before making my mind up.
But accuse me of being a shill if it makes you feel better.

Lebanon is struggling but unlike Ireland reugees do not have the same welfare and are also supported by the UN.

https://chronicle.fanack.com/lebanon/economy/lebanon-syrian-refugees-cost-the-economy-4-5-billion-every-year/

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/lebanon-struggles-to-shelter-and-feed-over-a-million-syrian-refugees-1.2351044


This link below states its too early to say if refugees are an economic benefit.
http://bruegel.org/2015/10/how-will-refugees-affect-european-economies/


This link demonstrates the Irish inability to have any control in law over asylum seekers. How can you have a proper asylum system when they flout the law in such a manner.

http://bruegel.org/2015/10/how-will-refugees-affect-european-economies/


Ireland has an opt out clause and is not required by law to take refugees.
There is not a population decline compared with Germany for example . Ireland continues to allow free movement of EU citizens to work here which is a proven benefit to the state and they integrate better.

JPNelsforearm

Frank Grimes wrote: »

How would you control all of this, particularly given that we're in the EU? Non-EU immigration is regulated here so unskilled/educated people wouldn't really have much of a chance of getting in apart from asylum seekers/refugees.

How are these NGOs working "against the Irish people"?

Are you talking about any "foreign people/culture" specifically or just anyone who doesn't fit your definition of Irish?

Leave the EU, I voted yes in Nice and Lisbon, but in retrospect it was the wrong decision, I used to be pro europe all through university, but the refugee crisis and living abroad in "multicultural" countries like the US and in London has opened my eyes.

The EU's goal is to break down and destroy the nation state and ethnic european diversity. Sutherland and all the high ups advocate this, do you want links?. Leave the EU and institute a proper border force, job done.
A pakistani man just got banged up for raping a woman with down syndrome last week, it emerged in his trial that his IQ was estimated in the sub 80's, how did he get into the country? 37% of Africans are on social welfare(according to the ESRI). We clearly have no control over who enters.

Here's a recent example of an NGO working for "legislative change", which I take to mean, more restrictions on freedom.
http://www.thejournal.ie/hate-map-racism-ireland-2497885-Dec2015/
Ireland is very "underpopulated", "contructed Irish people as gaels", listen to this insanity, the goal of the NGO's and anti racist campaigners is utterly anti Irish. What a complete fifth column.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UbIehthCEo

Good thread on NGO's, obviously two years out of date.
http://www.politics.ie/forum/health-social-affairs/211684-forces-lined-up-make-irish-minority-their-homeland.html

Every major political party(from Sinn Fein to FG) is to blame also, they gave up our sovereignty, they allowed these anti Irish creeps to set the tone and funded them in university and funded their think tanks.

Frank Grimes

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

We clearly have no control over who enters.

This is not true, it has already been pointed out to you by others - constantly repeating it does not make it a fact.

Here's a recent example of an NGO working for "legislative change", which I take to mean, more restrictions on freedom.
http://www.thejournal.ie/hate-map-racism-ireland-2497885-Dec2015/
Ireland is very "underpopulated", "contructed Irish people as gaels", listen to this insanity, the goal of the NGO's and anti racist campaigners is utterly anti Irish. What a complete fifth column.

So you have a problem with an NGO that's trying to get the government to finally take hate-based/racist discrimination and crime seriously? How is that placing "more restriction on freedom" or do you think this is some sort of conspiracy - that's a genuine questions as I have no interest in engaging with conspiracy "theories".

Every major political party(from Sinn Fein to FG) is to blame also, they gave up our sovereignty, they allowed these anti Irish creeps to set the tone and funded them in university and funded their think tanks.

Which immigration-related NGOs are funded by the state? I would like to see sources as the last time I checked they were in receipt of private funding. I see your concerns about "restrictions on freedoms" doesn't extend to academic freedom, or are these concerns just confined to opinions you agree with?

Frank Grimes

I did not watch that video of Ronit Lentin but I am familiar with her arguments. I do not agree with her but I do not think she should be viewed as a "fifth column" for what she says. She is not trying to incite hatred or violence with what she writes/says so she is free to have whatever opinions she likes. I would have thought a champion of freedom who posted the following would be in agreement but obviously not.

JPNelsforearm wrote:

That would be my take on it, saying that, I'd welcome anyone into the country who is all of the above to holiday, enjoy the place, even to debate and air their views or pass on their perspective, freedom of speech and a robust exchange of ideas is essential for a society to flourish

JPNelsforearm

Frank Grimes wrote: »

This is not true, it has already been pointed out to you by others - constantly repeating it does not make it a fact.

So you have a problem with an NGO that's trying to get the government to finally take hate-based/racist discrimination and crime seriously? How is that placing "more restriction on freedom" or do you think this is some sort of conspiracy - that's a genuine questions as I have no interest in engaging with conspiracy "theories".

Which immigration-related NGOs are funded by the state? I would like to see sources as the last time I checked they were in receipt of private funding. I see your concerns about "restrictions on freedoms" doesn't extend to academic freedom, or are these concerns just confined to opinions you agree with?

https://www.esri.ie/news/ethnicity-and-nationality-in-the-irish-labour-market/ 37% of Africans are on social welfare, which is an astronomical figure, clearly no due diligence was performed, thus my contention that "we have no control over who enters" is true. We have no control over who enters from Europe, and clearly we have no control over who enters from africa, otherwise we couldnt have a 37% of them unemployed.. Also http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=14486 Female genital mutilation, we have no control, otherwise it would not be occurring.

There is no need for "race based" or "hate" legislation. Adequate legislation exists. There is no such thing as a hate crime, there is just crime. And insults are just that, opinions are just that, distatsteful as they may be. Zero erosion of (the already limited) freedom of speech we have is acceptable. Its not a conspiracy, its "liberal" insanity. I would do anything for a first amendment in this country. Free Speech be lightly policed and treasured.

The NGO's are funded by the state in two ways, covertly through the proliferation of useless degrees in victimhood politics at institutes of "higher learning"(LOL) and producing the graduates that fill their ranks. If the governement didnt fund these professors and their useless degree programs, none of this nonsense would exist. As it is, impressionable morons get their minds moulded by anti Irish dogma, graduate and need a place to work, viola, the NGO is born..

http://www.tcd.ie/immigration/networks/mapping.php

436 NGO's dedicated to lobbying for more immigration....just LOL.

The second is in giving them tax exempt status. They are also in receipt of EU grants.

JPNelsforearm

Frank Grimes wrote: »

I did not watch that video of Ronit Lentin but I am familiar with her arguments. I do not agree with her but I do not think she should be viewed as a "fifth column" for what she says. She is not trying to incite hatred or violence with what she writes/says so she is free to have whatever opinions she likes. I would have thought a champion of freedom who posted the following would be in agreement but obviously not.

Ronit Lentin isnt here for a holiday, she is/was working in an Irish university, actively working against "the concept of Irishness". She is being funded( and her dept) by the Irish tax payer to work against the very concept of an Ireland and Irishness.

People like the Halawas get a lot of stick on here and in newspapers, their "antics" pale in comparison to Ronit Lentin, she was handed a platform in a taxpayer funded university to teach and preach her anti Irish screed. It would be funny if I didnt think it was sad.

If you wouldnt describe a Israeli woman(working in Irish academia) who whilst actively railing against the "racist" classification of the Irish People as "Irish people", whilst at the same time saying "ireland is underpopulated", "we could easily take in 4 million more" as a fifth columnist, what would you describe her as?
She is saying the very thing all imperialists say when they try to de legitimise and conquer a people. All in the supposed cause of anti racism...

Lockstep

KingBrian2 wrote: »

You keep showing the same citations which only further the case that their is a refugee crisis in the Mediterranean.

Yes, they're relevent sources which you have yet to disprove. They also show that contrary to your claims, the vast majority of Mediterranean arrivals are from countries with a very high chance of success. Although you claim they are fleeing poverty (without any evidence to support this), those refugees from the Balkans (who are fleeing poverty) have an almost negligible chance of their asylum claim being successful.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The countries in these region are being inundated with migrants and they cannot handle them. They are also contributing to the unemployment rate and accelerating the level of demographic decline.

This links are old ones.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/21/chaos-greek-islands-three-tier-refugee-registration-system-syria-lesbos

http://fortune.com/2015/09/08/europe-refugee-crisis-spain/

None of those back up your claims. All they say is that poor planning means the refugees are not being properly looked after.

Please show how the refugees are contributing to unemployment and "demographic decline".

Frank Grimes

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

https://www.esri.ie/news/ethnicity-and-nationality-in-the-irish-labour-market/ 37% of Africans are on social welfare, which is an astronomical figure, clearly no due diligence was performed, thus my contention that "we have no control over who enters" is true. We have no control over who enters from Europe, and clearly we have no control over who enters from africa, otherwise we couldnt have a 37% of them unemployed.. Also http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=14486 Female genital mutilation, we have no control, otherwise it would not be occurring.

Neither examples demonstrate "no control". Do you think 37% of Africans on social welfare simply came here to live off the state or could there be other reasons? The FGM point doesn't back up your assertion either.

There is no need for "race based" or "hate" legislation. Adequate legislation exists. There is no such thing as a hate crime, there is just crime. And insults are just that, opinions are just that, distatsteful as they may be. Zero erosion of (the already limited) freedom of speech we have is acceptable. Its not a conspiracy, its "liberal" insanity. I would do anything for a first amendment in this country. Free Speech be lightly policed and treasured.

You clearly do not believe in absolute freedom of speech so give that a rest. Hate/race based crime is real regardless of the semantic games you want to play. Also, people harassing other people in the basis of the skin colour or whatever isn't an exercise in free speech, but I'm sure you can lecture people who have to put up with this on a regular basis the importance of allowing it to go unchecked.

The NGO's are funded by the state in two ways, covertly through the proliferation of useless degrees in victimhood politics at institutes of "higher learning"(LOL) and producing the graduates that fill their ranks. If the governement didnt fund these professors and their useless degree programs, none of this nonsense would exist. As it is, impressionable morons get their minds moulded by anti Irish dogma, graduate and need a place to work, viola, the NGO is born..

http://www.tcd.ie/immigration/networks/mapping.php

436 NGO's dedicated to lobbying for more immigration....just LOL.

The second is in giving them tax exempt status. They are also in receipt of EU grants.

This doesn't answer my question, it is just ranting.

Frank Grimes

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Ronit Lentin isnt here for a holiday, she is/was working in an Irish university, actively working against "the concept of Irishness". She is being funded( and her dept) by the Irish tax payer to work against the very concept of an Ireland and Irishness.

People like the Halawas get a lot of stick on here and in newspapers, their "antics" pale in comparison to Ronit Lentin, she was handed a platform in a taxpayer funded university to teach and preach her anti Irish screed. It would be funny if I didnt think it was sad.

If you wouldnt describe a Israeli woman(working in Irish academia) who whilst actively railing against the "racist" classification of the Irish People as "Irish people", whilst at the same time saying "ireland is underpopulated", "we could easily take in 4 million more" as a fifth columnist, what would you describe her as?
She is saying the very thing all imperialists say when they try to de legitimise and conquer a people. All in the supposed cause of anti racism...

But you're all for freedom of speech?

Lockstep

gallag wrote: »

Well in my eyes they are not British because they did not identify as British, they hate British values and way of life, and they exploded themselves on public transport to kill as many British people who they hate as possible.

What do you mean by British? An Anglo-Saxon? Someone with Irish ancestry who was born and raised in the UK? What about someone whose ancestry is that of a Viking? What of the IRA? Would you see them as not British despite being British citizens because they're killing British civilians.

Like it or not, they were British citizens.

K-9

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

https://www.esri.ie/news/ethnicity-and-nationality-in-the-irish-labour-market/ 37% of Africans are on social welfare, which is an astronomical figure, clearly no due diligence was performed, thus my contention that "we have no control over who enters" is true. We have no control over who enters from Europe, and clearly we have no control over who enters from africa, otherwise we couldnt have a 37% of them unemployed.. Also http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=14486 Female genital mutilation, we have no control, otherwise it would not be occurring.

There is no need for "race based" or "hate" legislation. Adequate legislation exists. There is no such thing as a hate crime, there is just crime. And insults are just that, opinions are just that, distatsteful as they may be. Zero erosion of (the already limited) freedom of speech we have is acceptable. Its not a conspiracy, its "liberal" insanity. I would do anything for a first amendment in this country. Free Speech be lightly policed and treasured.

The NGO's are funded by the state in two ways, covertly through the proliferation of useless degrees in victimhood politics at institutes of "higher learning"(LOL) and producing the graduates that fill their ranks. If the governement didnt fund these professors and their useless degree programs, none of this nonsense would exist. As it is, impressionable morons get their minds moulded by anti Irish dogma, graduate and need a place to work, viola, the NGO is born..

http://www.tcd.ie/immigration/networks/mapping.php

436 NGO's dedicated to lobbying for more immigration....just LOL.

The second is in giving them tax exempt status. They are also in receipt of EU grants.

Mod:

There is such a thing as hate speech.

We've had several reported posts recently about you and reviewing your posts over tbe last day or so shows they've foundation. This stuff about indigenous people, evolution and there being no hate or race speech is a bit worrying tbh. We don't allow racism on the forum and the above stuff is racist. No doubt you'll disagree, but there is no free speech on boards, exactly because of stuff like that.

Banned.

Lockstep

rgossip30 wrote: »

Lebanon is struggling but unlike Ireland reugees do not have the same welfare and are also supported by the UN.

https://chronicle.fanack.com/lebanon/economy/lebanon-syrian-refugees-cost-the-economy-4-5-billion-every-year/

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/lebanon-struggles-to-shelter-and-feed-over-a-million-syrian-refugees-1.2351044

They're also prevented from working legally: this means they cannot contribute to public finances. That they're an economic asset despite being prevented from working is quite remarkable. Had they be allowed work, the economic benefits would be even greater.
See here

The report shows that registered Syrian refugees provide the main impetus to Lebanese services exports.This suggests that a more formal integration of the refugees is important to maximize the benefit of their presence on the Lebanese economy.

However, growth has remained positive, even as it tumbled from exceptionally high rates prior to 2011.Consumption and investment by the Syrians (refugees or otherwise) offer an explanation as to why the economy has remained afloat. Syrian relocation to Lebanon also included the rich and the elite, who have a high spending power. Poorer Syrian refugees also consume basic consumption goods.Furthermore, the longer the Syrians are refuged, the more likely they make more medium to long-termeconomic adjustments that might benefit the host country. Additionally, international aid money destined to organizations that are assisting the Syrian refugees, such as the various UN agencies,strengthen inflows boosting the balance of payments (BoP), and reinforce the Lebanese pound

rgossip30 wrote: »

This link below states its too early to say if refugees are an economic benefit.
http://bruegel.org/2015/10/how-will-refugees-affect-european-economies/

Does it? It summarises the views of various economists. Where does it prove that it's too early to say the refugees are an economic asset?

Their overall conclusion is that migration is “neither a significant gain nor drain for the public purse”

On the perceived costs of migration on health care, and the specific claim that migrants increase waiting hours, Osea Giuntella, Catia Nicodemo and Carlos Vargas-Silva use micro-data from the United Kingdom and find no evidence that immigration increases waiting times in A&E (accident and emergency) and elective care. In fact, higher immigration in an area actually reduces waiting times for outpatients there.

On balance, the result could be a near-term stimulus to demand of some 0.2% of Eurozone GDP for 2H 2015 and probably 2016.

Most studies conclude that immigration’s effects on the wages and employment of native workers are either small or nonexistent.

rgossip30 wrote: »

This link demonstrates the Irish inability to have any control in law over asylum seekers. How can you have a proper asylum system when they flout the law in such a manner.

http://bruegel.org/2015/10/how-will-refugees-affect-european-economies/


Ireland has an opt out clause and is not required by law to take refugees.
There is not a population decline compared with Germany for example . Ireland continues to allow free movement of EU citizens to work here which is a proven benefit to the state and they integrate better.

Have you a source for your claim that the EU citizens are a proven economic benefit?
Both EU and non EU migrants are proven to be a net boost to the UK's finances, as evidenced by the CREAM report.

gallag

Lockstep wrote: »

What do you mean by British? An Anglo-Saxon? Someone with Irish ancestry who was born and raised in the UK? What about someone whose ancestry is that of a Viking? What of the IRA? Would you see them as not British despite being British citizens because they're killing British civilians.

Like it or not, they were British citizens.

My apologies, I don't feel I can discuss this in this forum as my views are not extreme liberal and will ultimately result in a ban from one of the exclusively liberal/left mod team, I shall now leave the international politics forum and you guys can enjoy your agreement circle/safe space.

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

Feel free to express your view and you wont be banned for doing so here. However, it is against the rules to discuss moderation on thread so please refrain from doing so. And that means dont reply to this post to argue moderation. You can open a thread on feedback if you wish.

rgossip30

Lockstep wrote: »

They're also prevented from working legally: this means they cannot contribute to public finances. That they're an economic asset despite being prevented from working is quite remarkable. Had they be allowed work, the economic benefits would be even greater.
See here




Does it? It summarises the views of various economists. Where does it prove that it's too early to say the refugees are an economic asset?



Have you a source for your claim that the EU citizens are a proven economic benefit?
Both EU and non EU migrants are proven to be a net boost to the UK's finances, as evidenced by the CREAM report.

The link below slows that Non EU have significently higher unemployment rates.

http://www.thejournal.ie/eu-employment-unemployment-1596939-Jul2014/

The link below refers to the UK and the difference between EU and Non EU and their benefit . The non EU is of lower benefit.

http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/publications/publication13389_en.pdf

A more hard hitting article that predicts chaos.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/612673/migrant-crisis-Syria-taxes-economy-Germany-Angela-Merkel-Bernd-Raffelhuschen

kettlehead

Non EU migrants are a net drain whilst EU migrants contribute more than they receive.

Immigrants who came to live in Britain from outside Europe cost the public purse nearly £120 billion over 17 years, a new report has shown.

The major academic study also found, however, that recent immigration from Europe – driven by the surge in arrivals from eastern European – gave the economy a £4.4 billion boost over the same period.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11209234/Immigration-from-outside-Europe-cost-120-billion.html

kettlehead

K-9 wrote: »

We know terrorist attacks will happen regardless of Syria, because well they have. Tightening immigration will definitely please some, but it isn't going to stop ISIS or whoever.

You realise that ISIS have already taken advantage of the migrants crisis and came here disguised as refugees, right? They would not have been able to get into Europe and carry out the Paris massacre if that route was not open to them. Another two were lifted in a refugee centre in Graz the day before Christmas eve.

Two people have been arrested at a refugee centre in the Austrian city of Salzburg on suspicion of being connected to last month's Paris attacks, the Salzburg prosecutors' office said on Wednesday.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/two-paris-attack-link-suspects-arrested-in-austria-refugee-centre-34292880.html

The mastermind of the Paris attacks was able to slip into Europe among Syrian migrants, it emerged last night, as police on the continent admitted they are unable to monitor thousands of suspected jihadists.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/12006892/International-manhunt-underway-after-French-police-let-Paris-attacks-suspect-slip-through-their-fingers.html

Police detained the two men, aged 16 and 18, in the Leibnitz district in Styria state last Thursday after a tip-off from German authorities, the prosecutor's office in the city of Graz said.

While the younger brother is accused of belonging to the Islamic State (ISIS) group, his older sibling is thought to have fought for the Ahrar al-Sham militia, the office added.

http://www.thelocal.at/20151223/teen-terror-suspects-arrested-near-graz

There are countless more examples of Jihadis getting in via the migrant route or using it to get in and out evading detection. It is only a matter of time before they strike again. The police in Vienna are currently out in force due to a tip off that a heavily built up area is to be attacked.

Now, how much more of this does Europe have to take and how many European residents have to die before we close the borders? You keep the borders open and these attacks won't cease.

Nodin

kettlehead wrote: »

You realise that ISIS have already taken advantage of the migrants crisis and came here disguised as refugees, right? They would not have been able to get into Europe and carry out the Paris massacre if that route was not open to them. .............

How many of the Paris attackers came via that route?

kettlehead

Nodin wrote: »

How many of the Paris attackers came via that route?

At least three. Could be five. You asked me this a week ago. I'm not a parrot.

French authorities now firmly believe that Paris attack ringleader Abdelhamid Abaaoud, a Belgian-Moroccan ISIS operative, was on the Greek island of Leros some weeks before the terror attack, a source close to the investigation told CNN.

Authorities had previously disclosed that two of the stadium attackers, who have yet to be identified, transited on October 3 through the island, where they used fake Syrian passports to be processed as asylum-seekers.

The source said authorities were investigating whether Abaaoud also took advantage of the refugee processing system to cross back into Europe via Leros, but this was not yet known.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/17/europe/paris-ringleader-came-though-greek-island/

Could be up to five according to some sources. Let Google translate do her thing - http://www.nzz.ch/international/wenn-terroristen-fluechtlingsrouten-nutzen-1.18649919

K-9

kettlehead wrote: »

You realise that ISIS have already taken advantage of the migrants crisis and came here disguised as refugees, right? They would not have been able to get into Europe and carry out the Paris massacre if that route was not open to them. Another two were lifted in a refugee centre in Graz the day before Christmas eve. ed-in-austria-refugee-centre-34292880.html[/url]



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/12006892/International-manhunt-underway-after-French-police-let-Paris-attacks-suspect-slip-through-their-fingers.html



http://www.thelocal.at/20151223/teen-terror-suspects-arrested-near-graz

There are countless more examples of Jihadis getting in via the migrant route or using it to get in and out evading detection. It is only a matter of time before they strike again. The police in Vienna are currently out in force due to a tip off that a heavily built up area is to be attacked.

Now, how much more of this does Europe have to take and how many European residents have to die before we close the borders? You keep the borders open and these attacks won't cease.

I realise that.

You, or previous posters, haven't realised my point though.

I'm starting to to think your point of view and ideology can't comprehend my point, which is fair enough.

Terrorists are terrorists, whether they are IRA orISIS, attacks happened pre Syria, post Syria and if Syria never happened.

Nodin

kettlehead wrote: »

At least three. Could be five. You asked me this a week ago. I'm not a parrot.

You seem to be making some mistake in logic here. Some may have come via that route, but the rest did not. Secondly, these were a mix of French and Belgian citizens, not Syrians, and could have returned regardless, though possibly drawing attention under their own identity. Thirdly IS were targeting Europe before Syrian refugees began arriving.

kettlehead

That we should keep our borders open as the Islamic terrorists will get in anyway? That's not a point. That is nonsense. If there are a spate of burglaries in my area I don't leave the door unlocked because they will get in anyway.

We know that terrorists have and are using the migrant route - something which the "Refugees welcome" people claimed wouldn't happen and was just "far right fearmongering". Continuing to leave the borders open in such a scenario is absolute lunacy. Too high a price has already been paid. How many more must be murdered before people realise that large scale, unvetted and unfettered immigration from the Middle East and Africa is a suicidal policy?

kettlehead

Nodin wrote: »

You seem to be making some mistake in logic here. Some may have come via that route, but the rest did not. Secondly, these were a mix of French and Belgian citizens, not Syrians, and could have returned regardless, though possibly drawing attention under their own identity. Thirdly IS were targeting Europe before Syrian refugees began arriving.

They would have been arrested if they tried to get back in via the correct channels and took advantage of the migrant crisis where they could blend in with the "refugees" no evade proper border controls. They couldn't have just flown home "regardless".

As for them being Belgian or French citizens - some indeed where. Of recent immigrant stock. Which further shows the utter failure of Europe's immigration policies over the last few decades.