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Mediterranean migrants- specific questions

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    #902
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    I will be glad to post sources as soon as we discuss a topic that is not subject to mindless speculation.

    We're not discussing "mindless speculation". You're making statements. You need to start backing them up if you want them to be taken seriously.

    For example.
    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    There are no Syrian moderates in that region, period. A scattered few perhaps but nowhere near the 10000 number.
    Wrong

    The YPG alone has 50,000 fighters
    Factor in the Southern Front, the Syrian Democratic Forces and so on and your claim that there's only "a scattered few" is disproven.
    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    The number of Iraqi, Libyan and Afghanis are understated. A refugee crisis was brewing in Iraq during the illegal invasion of that country and in many cases these people are classed as displaced. They have no nation they belong to. Try to discard the Palestinians who have no nation or the Tuaregs if you can.
    What is your source for this? The UNHCR figures show that half of arrivals are Syrian . Likewise, German refugee figures for October show that half were Syrian (and this figure includes Albanians, Kosovars and so on who would not be counted in the UNCHR figures as they're already within Europe)

    If you have any data to support your claim that Iraqis, Libyans and Afghanis are understated, please provide a source for this. Otherwise, it's pointless and unfounded conjecture.


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    #903
    rgossip30
    Registered Users Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭rgossip30


    Lockstep wrote: »
    On what? That Europeans are ignorant on immigration? Did you read the article?

    So on one article you base your assumptions . We are discussing the present asylum seeker situation as distinct from general immigration.?
    Sweden and Germany top the list allowing Syrians automatic refugee status . Legal Immigration is not a problem but asylum seekers are proving to be .
    I think likely any gains from these migrants will not be until the second generation. There was UNHCR program refugees settled in my area in 2010 that were supposed to be temporary none are employed after 5 years .There are no figures for the numbers working which leads to suspicion. I intend to pester any politican at voting time on this issue .


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    #904
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Lockstep wrote: »
    We're not discussing "mindless speculation". You're making statements. You need to start backing them up if you want them to be taken seriously.

    For example.

    Wrong

    The YPG alone has 50,000 fighters
    Factor in the Southern Front, the Syrian Democratic Forces and so on and your claim that there's only "a scattered few" is disproven.


    What is your source for this? The UNHCR figures show that half of arrivals are Syrian . Likewise, German refugee figures for October show that half were Syrian (and this figure includes Albanians, Kosovars and so on who would not be counted in the UNCHR figures as they're already within Europe)

    If you have any data to support your claim that Iraqis, Libyans and Afghanis are understated, please provide a source for this. Otherwise, it's pointless and unfounded conjecture.

    All those figures are disputed. I won't begin to take them at face value given that many groups are not even based in Syria rather they include a much larger region. People are being grouped into category of Syrian migrant when they are not Syrian. They are being overstated and I can only surmise it is being allowed to happen to suit the politicians to make spurious claims that a flood of Syrians are pouring out of the country. Migrants are heading to Europe from across North Africa and West Asia regardless of what country they came from.


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    #905
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    All those figures are disputed. I won't begin to take them at face value given that many groups are not even based in Syria rather they include a much larger region. People are being grouped into category of Syrian migrant when they are not Syrian. They are being overstated and I can only surmise it is being allowed to happen to suit the politicians to make spurious claims that a flood of Syrians are pouring out of the country. Migrants are heading to Europe from across North Africa and West Asia regardless of what country they came from.
    I asked for sources. Not more unfounded conjecture. If you can't provide evidence for your claims, I'll take it as an admission you've no basis for your opinions.


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    #906
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    rgossip30 wrote: »
    So on one article you base your assumptions . We are discussing the present asylum seeker situation as distinct from general immigration.?
    Sweden and Germany top the list allowing Syrians automatic refugee status . Legal Immigration is not a problem but asylum seekers are proving to be .
    I think likely any gains from these migrants will not be until the second generation. There was UNHCR program refugees settled in my area in 2010 that were supposed to be temporary none are employed after 5 years .There are no figures for the numbers working which leads to suspicion. I intend to pester any politican at voting time on this issue .

    If voters are uninformed about immigration it's a logicial assumption that they're little better on refugees. As the above posts show, refugees are an economic benefit to their hosts. It's a shame so many people don't realise this.


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    #907
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    Lockstep wrote: »
    If voters are uninformed about immigration it's a logicial assumption that they're little better on refugees. As the above posts show, refugees are an economic benefit to their hosts. It's a shame so many people don't realise this.

    36% of African immigrants to Ireland are on the dole, define "benefit".
    https://www.esri.ie/news/ethnicity-and-nationality-in-the-irish-labour-market/


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    #908
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Lockstep wrote: »
    I asked for sources. Not more unfounded conjecture. If you can't provide evidence for your claims, I'll take it as an admission you've no basis for your opinions.

    Not unfounded. Most of the ground fighters against ISIS are Syrian army troops and it was brave Syrian soldiers that were killed in friendly fire by coalition forces most recently.

    http://syriadirect.org/news/which-planes-hit-the-syrian-regime-base-in-deir-e-zor/

    The armed opposition you speak of are anti gvt forces consisting of a variegated assortment of rival groupings.


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    #909
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    36% of African immigrants to Ireland are on the dole, define "benefit".
    https://www.esri.ie/news/ethnicity-and-nationality-in-the-irish-labour-market/
    As highlighted above, immigration is generally a net positive for the host country. Britain is a good example, with the aforementioned CREAM report showing that immigrants put in more than they take out.

    Ireland is something of an anomaly
    s. Across the OECD, foreign-born workers are more likely to be out of work. But, somewhat perversely, this is caused by higher rates of unemployment among those with more skills (this is perverse because usually a higher level of education makes it easier to find work). By contrast, low-educated immigrants are more likely to be employed than natives.

    Both of these patterns apply to Ireland - the low-skilled foreign-born are less likely to be unemployed than Irish-born, and the higher-than-average immigrant unemployment rate in Ireland is due to more well educated people being jobless.
    ne area where Ireland is out of kilter with our European neighbours is foreign-born self-employment. Typically, immigrants are more likely to work for themselves. But in Ireland it is the reverse, and given what the hard data say about low levels of entrepreneurial achievement, that must be something of a disappointment. It might also be an issue to be considered in great depth from a policy perspective.

    There are several factors which could explain Ireland's performance. The main one is likely to be the composition of Ireland's foreign population. The OECD notes that Ireland's overall outcomes for immigrants are better in part because of the more advantaged socio-economic backgrounds and the higher level of education of those arriving.

    Immigrants into Ireland are predominately from developed states: three quarters are from a high-income countries, compared to the OECD average of just 44pc.

    This, in turn, is explained by a number of factors, including the fact that Ireland has not traditionally had a particularly liberal approach towards humanitarian migrants, such as some of the Nordic countries. Irish governments have tended to favour job-ready recruits, not refugees.


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    #910
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Not unfounded. Most of the ground fighters against ISIS are Syrian army troops and it was brave Syrian soldiers that were killed in friendly fire by coalition forces most recently.

    http://syriadirect.org/news/which-planes-hit-the-syrian-regime-base-in-deir-e-zor/

    The armed opposition you speak of are anti gvt forces consisting of a variegated assortment of rival groupings.

    I'm not sure how this proves you previous claims. Can you expand on this?

    The Syrian Arab Army has not been the main bulwark against ISIS. Quite the opposite. Remember, the vast majority of Russia's airstrikes have been against rebel groups other than ISIS, even then, the majority of their anti-ISIS strikes have been very recent

    Likewise, Assad's forces are responsible for the rise of ISIS.
    rofessor Peter Neumann, the London-based expert on security and radicalisation, has detailed how Assad and his intelligence chiefs actively encouraged Syrian extremists to fight in Iraq after the 2003 invasion led by America. Their logic was many would die or disappear, while the insurgency would weaken Western resolve to topple despotic regimes (since many senior figures feared their nation might be next.) They even released Islamist prisoners and gave them military training. The result was Syria became the key entry point for foreign jihadists heading to Iraq and a hotbed for fundamentalists.

    Syrian security forces went on to fan Islamic extremism in Lebanon, again opening up their country to international networks of jihadists and foreign fighters. The legacy, according to Neumann, was that when protests erupted against Assad four years ago these groups were in position to attack the government and rapidly raise funds from sympathisers for weapons. Yet this same cynical regime now presents itself as a bulwark against terrorists.

    Despite Assad's constant diatribes against ISIS, his troops have overwhelmingly focussed on other factions, with just 6 percent of SAA operations going against ISIS.

    Syria's rebel factions are divided to but as the Lister article above shows, your claims that moderate rebels are just "a scattered few" holds no water.


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    #911
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Lockstep wrote: »
    I'm not sure how this proves you previous claims. Can you expand on this?

    The Syrian Arab Army has not been the main bulwark against ISIS.     Quite the opposite. Remember, the vast majority of Russia's airstrikes have been against rebel groups other than ISIS, even then, the majority of their anti-ISIS strikes have been very recent

    Likewise, Assad's forces are responsible for the rise of ISIS.


    Despite Assad's constant diatribes against ISIS, his troops have overwhelmingly focussed on other factions, with just 6 percent of SAA operations going against ISIS.

    Syria's rebel factions are divided to but as the Lister article above shows, your claims that moderate rebels are just "a scattered few" holds no water.

    I read this line and it immediately became apparent you are not taking this topic seriously. You refuse to recognise that the Syrian Arab Army has contributed the most to the fight against ISIS. The Syrian gvt has been accused (in the past) of providing safe harbours and safe passage to terrorists in Iraq, Lebanon, Turkey and Israel. When the US provides weapons to terrorists it is called assistance. There were political parties in Syria before the uprising none of whom supported breaking up the country.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/13/obama-syrian-rebels_n_3438625.html


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    #912
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    We can all agree atrocities have taken place committed by both sides. Defeating ISIS is not a contest I very much expect both sides to be moving away from combatting one another and aiming their combined force against ISIS and this is the important fact which is what I was trying to get out.

    Most of the rebel army is full of similar people to the terrorists in ISIS. You cannot negotiate with them as in the Taliban or the Al Nusra group. They are Jihadists and it is right for the gvt to be targeting these organisation. Obviously going after civilians is a war crime.

    The Syrian gvt in cooperation with Russia is taking on the serious terrorist organisations. To suggest they are not is untrue and it promotes the agenda of the terrorists looking for reasons to attack innocent civilians. Multiple terror gangs are spread out across the region they have to be rooted out and destroyed.


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    #913
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    I read this line and it immediately became apparent you are not taking this topic seriously. You refuse to recognise that the Syrian Arab Army has contributed the most to the fight against ISIS. The Syrian gvt has been accused (in the past) of providing safe harbours and safe passage to terrorists in Iraq, Lebanon, Turkey and Israel. When the US provides weapons to terrorists it is called assistance. There were political parties in Syria before the uprising none of whom supported breaking up the country.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/13/obama-syrian-rebels_n_3438625.html
    No they haven't. See my previous post. Once again, can you provide any evidence for your claims? Your link is utterly non sequitur with what you're trying to argue.


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    #914
    rgossip30
    Registered Users Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭rgossip30


    Lockstep wrote: »
    As highlighted above, immigration is generally a net positive for the host country. Britain is a good example, with the aforementioned CREAM report showing that immigrants put in more than they take out.

    Ireland is something of an anomaly

    You consistantly use the broad term immigration to support your claim . The topic is about asylum seekers which is undoubtly different.
    Yes EU arrivals were a positive benefit to Ireland.
    You redemmed yourself somewhat by saying 'Ireland is an anomoly'.
    Try to stick to specifically asylum seekers . Whether Syrian asylum seekers will be a positive benefit is purely seculation at present.
    I think it will be the second generation before any benefit .


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    #915
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    rgossip30 wrote: »
    You consistantly use the broad term immigration to support your claim . The topic is about asylum seekers which is undoubtly different.
    Is it? If the European public are ignorant on immigration, they're not likely to be better informed on refugees.
    Certainly, the British public is equally ignorant on refugees.
    rgossip30 wrote: »
    Yes EU arrivals were a positive benefit to Ireland.
    You redemmed yourself somewhat by saying 'Ireland is an anomoly'.
    Try to stick to specifically asylum seekers .
    Whether Syrian asylum seekers will be a positive benefit is purely seculation at present.
    I think it will be the second generation before any benefit .
    What are you basing this on? The Commission has already estimated that refugees will have a positive economic impact on the EU's economy. I've provided a considerable number of sources already. If you've any information which disproves this, please feel free to provide it.


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    #916
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Lockstep wrote: »
    Is it? If the European public are ignorant on immigration, they're not likely to be better informed on refugees.
    Certainly, the British public is equally ignorant on refugees.


    What are you basing this on? The Commission has already estimated that refugees will have a positive economic impact on the EU's economy. I've provided a considerable number of sources already. If you've any information which disproves this, please feel free to provide it.

    The general public in Europe is very aware of Immigrants. Peoples views however are very clear. They are willing to accept refugees from anywhere in the world, not to be a permanent residency for Jihadists to fight wars in the name of extreme political ideologies.


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    #917
    Lockstep
    Registered Users Posts: 9,029 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    The general public in Europe is very aware of Immigrants. Peoples views however are very clear. They are willing to accept refugees from anywhere in the world, not to be a permanent residency for Jihadists to fight wars in the name of extreme political ideologies.

    As I've already shown, the public are not "well aware" when it comes to immigration. Noone is willing to accept terrorists. And there is no evidence that significant numbers of refugees are terrorist.


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    #918
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Lockstep wrote: »
    As I've already shown, the public are not "well aware" when it comes to immigration. Noone is willing to accept terrorists. And there is no evidence that significant numbers of refugees are terrorist.

    Let me be clear so my words are not going to be used against me. European ministers have discussed the threat of terrorism and of returning fighters from the Arab states. The terrorist ringleader that hit Paris was a Moroccan that entered the continent and the media have reported the relative ease by which foreign fighters can travel across the EU to fight from Belgium, France & Britain to Turkey. Hysteria and distortions is not the best approach to have when handling Europe's external borders.

    http://www.thelocal.fr/20151120/paris-attackers-refugees-migrants

    https://www.malaysiakini.com/news/323097


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    #919
    rgossip30
    Registered Users Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭rgossip30


    Lockstep wrote: »
    If voters are uninformed about immigration it's a logicial assumption that they're little better on refugees. As the above posts show, refugees are an economic benefit to their hosts. It's a shame so many people don't realise this.

    You are repeating this issue about immigration and still not making the distinction between those that come to work and those that claim asylum.

    I suggest you look at the German CDU conference in 2010 which shows a different Angela Merkel . Germany never allowed free access to new EU members to work in 2005 .This was not open to them until 2011 . Those that speak with forked tongue !!

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/angela-merkel-german-multiculturalism-failed


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    #920
    David Fiala
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭David Fiala


    rte news : refugee-council (can't post link)

    I said it before they are coming for free money ..... I can't wait when somebody will be complaining about foreigners who worked in Ireland for some years and are now getting social benefits , when these refuges will get it free..

    ''Hey we are here give us your money and we are happy to stay and suck your social system''


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    #921
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    David Fiala wrote: »
    rte news : refugee-council (can't post link)

    I said it before they are coming for free money ..... I can't wait when somebody will be complaining about foreigners who worked in Ireland for some years and are now getting social benefits , when these refuges will get it free..

    ''Hey we are here give us your money and we are happy to stay and suck your social system''
    They're entitled to state support, you not liking it is besides the point.


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    #922
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    David Fiala wrote: »
    rte news : refugee-council (can't post link)

    I said it before they are coming for free money ..... I can't wait when somebody will be complaining about foreigners who worked in Ireland for some years and are now getting social benefits , when these refuges will get it free..

    ''Hey we are here give us your money and we are happy to stay and suck your social system''

    Can you clarify, was the quote from the refugee council? If not, who said it?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #923
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    David Fiala wrote: »
    rte news : refugee-council (can't post link)

    I said it before they are coming for free money ..... I can't wait when somebody will be complaining about foreigners who worked in Ireland for some years and are now getting social benefits , when these refuges will get it free..

    ''Hey we are here give us your money and we are happy to stay and suck your social system''

    These are refugees from a war torn country. What do you suggest they subsist on while they are here?


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    #924
    JPNelsforearm
    Registered Users Posts: 2,147 ✭✭✭JPNelsforearm


    Frank Grimes wrote: »
    They're entitled to state support, you not liking it is besides the point.

    No they aren't, the Irish state is for the Irish people, no one else, we owe the world nothing, PC multiculturalism doent change that fact.


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    #925
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    No they aren't, the Irish state is for the Irish people, no one else, we owe the world nothing, PC multiculturalism doent change that fact.
    If you look at the law, rather than viewing the world through your own xenophobic lens, you'll find they are entitled to state support, along with other people who don't fit your criteria of deserving assistance.


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    #926
    David Fiala
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭David Fiala


    JPNelsforearm wrote: »
    No they aren't, the Irish state is for the Irish people, no one else, we owe the world nothing, PC multiculturalism doesn't change that fact.

    Personally I'm not Irish but gonna agree with you....the fact what i was trying to point out even as foreigner i had to work years to be allowed to access social benefits and i get spit to my face for actually getting these benefits... And these refuges get all this for granted and this goverment always talking about how ****ed this country is with money....just big BS


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    #927
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    David Fiala wrote: »
    Personally I'm not Irish but gonna agree with you....the fact what i was trying to point out even as foreigner i had to work years to be allowed to access social benefits and i get spit to my face for actually getting these benefits... And these refuges get all this for granted and this goverment always talking about how ****ed this country is with money....just big BS
    Refugees have different entitlements to other categories of immigrants.


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    #928
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,210 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Right, I've deleted a lot of off-topic posts. This thread is not about 9/11 so please take that to an appropriate forum.

    David Fiala, please red the charter before posting again as you've made several below standard posts here.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #929
    rgossip30
    Registered Users Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭rgossip30


    Frank Grimes wrote: »
    Refugees have different entitlements to other categories of immigrants.

    A small percentage are deemed refugees the majority are failed asylum seekers who get leave to remain from repeated appeals.
    Do you also believe that thse failed asylum seekers are entitled to benefits ?


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    #930
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    rgossip30 wrote: »
    A small percentage are deemed refugees the majority are failed asylum seekers who get leave to remain from repeated appeals.
    Do you also believe that thse failed asylum seekers are entitled to benefits ?

    The posts in this thread are in relation to the Syrian refugees.


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    #931
    Frank Grimes
    Registered Users Posts: 5,229 ✭✭✭Frank Grimes


    rgossip30 wrote: »
    A small percentage are deemed refugees the majority are failed asylum seekers who get leave to remain from repeated appeals.
    Do you also believe that thse failed asylum seekers are entitled to benefits ?
    If they are given leave to remain then yes, I believe they are entitled to whatever benefits that grants them. I don't see how this relates to the post you quoted however, although I can take a wild guess.


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