Irish Rail Fine

L1011

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Jesus lol
What part of that is open to interpretation??

The content of words on the the little placcy plaque is utterly irrelevant when the bye laws are what is in force.

I can put a plaque up saying "residents parking only" outside my house but it doesn't reflect the road traffic acts. This is exactly the same.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

No it isn't. It's like a shop putting up a sign saying you have to pay for goods before leaving the store and someone arguing somewhere that you don't have to pay for anything until after you use it. The warning is there in black and white. Travel without a ticket = get a fine. This is what happened in the OP

L1011

LexieOnRale wrote: »

No it isn't. It's like a shop putting up a sign saying you have to pay for goods before leaving the store and someone arguing somewhere that you don't have to pay for anything until after you use it. The warning is there in black and white. Travel without a ticket = get a fine. This is what happened in the OP

You really don't understand the regulations here at all.

Travel is controlled by the CIE bye laws - not a plastic plaque on a ticket machine. Whatever they write on a plastic plaque is irrelevant unless it complies with the bye laws.

Come back when you understand that.

sbkenn

OisinDunne wrote: »

I'd love to go to court and argue the point with them but it is my daughter that the offence is against and she is scared and worried about a criminal record if the judge goes against her. She is only 16. I, on the other hand, would be shouting my record from the rooftops as it would be the stupidest criminal conviction ever. Irish Rail won't allow me to take the case instead of her so I think I'll have to pay and then take them to small claims court to recover as they are undermining my authority as a parent under the constitution:

ARTICLE 41

1 1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

as they are saying that me telling my daughter to get on and I'll look after it was telling her to commit a criminal offence.

I really want to try this against a sane judge to see what happens but my poor daughter is so worried that she doesn't even want me talking about it at home.
Of course the final line of the appeals process states that the appeal decision is not open for appeal....but nothing is ever "not open to appeal" if we try to be reasonable adults about things.

It's not as if she was travelling the lenght and breath of the country evading fares everywhere, drinking & smokeing on the trains and not have a care in the world.
I do really worry about society at times. :-)

A criminal record should be wiped at 18. You are entitled to appear in court on behalf of your daughter, or on your own behalf. If you have evidence of your daughter's dyslexia, so much the better. If you can show that your daughter would have been on her own in Balbriggan if she hadn't jumped on the train, so much the better. Balbriggan has has a fairly high crime rate for some years, with muggings and burglaries on the rise. I believe that violent attacks are a daily occurrence here. Certainly, there is quite a bit of alcohol consumed along the beach and on the harbour, both being quite close to the station. My daughter, even at 22, is wary of coming home after dark.

end of the road

LexieOnRale wrote: »

No it isn't. It's like a shop putting up a sign saying you have to pay for goods before leaving the store and someone arguing somewhere that you don't have to pay for anything until after you use it. The warning is there in black and white. Travel without a ticket = get a fine. This is what happened in the OP

the bi-law gives leeway. so your wrong

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

If I was wrong the OP wouldn't be facing a court date

mass_debater

Sorry for robbing the thread but I have an issue something similar. My wife dropped our 16 year old son to the train (Boyle - Connolly) during the week. She went herself to the ticket office, was asked what age he was, said 16 and was given a €17 return ticket, she had no idea of the age limits or prices. Later that day in Dublin my son got asked for his ticket by an inspector and when asked his date of birth was told he had the wrong ticket and was charged €133 (€33 for ticket and €100 fine). My wife has twice went back to the train station but the office was closed. Certainly not paying, we have the visa debit receipt. How do we tackle this?

end of the road

LexieOnRale wrote: »

If I was wrong the OP wouldn't be facing a court date

still doesn't change what the bi-law says.

OisinDunne

mass_debater wrote:

Sorry for robbing the thread but I have an issue something similar. My wife dropped our 16 year old son to the train (Boyle - Connolly) during the week. She went herself to the ticket office, was asked what age he was, said 16 and was given a €17 return ticket, she had no idea of the age limits or prices. Later that day in Dublin my son got asked for his ticket by an inspector and when asked his date of birth was told he had the wrong ticket and was charged €133 (€33 for ticket and €100 fine). My wife has twice went back to the train station but the office was closed. Certainly not paying, we have the visa debit receipt. How do we tackle this?

I'd appeal it on the basis the it was what the IR employee sold you. You didn't use the ticket machine and you gave the ticket seller all the facts about your son's age.

OisinDunne

Jawgap wrote:

The poster had already paid for the journey, forgot the proof of it and still had to pay for another ticket.

Jawgap wrote:

Actually, it's even more relevant.

Jawgap wrote:

How'd it have played out if he ran into RPU and said he'd forgotten his annual pass and offered to bring to them the next day?

I have a yearly ticket and this has happened to me... I got the fine from rpu.went to pearse office next day, showed them my yearly ticket. Fine cancelled.... Common sense prevails.

mass_debater

OisinDunne wrote: »

I'd appeal it on the basis the it was what the IR employee sold you. You didn't use the ticket machine and you gave the ticket seller all the facts about your son's age.

How do you appeal, what's the process

OisinDunne

mass_debater wrote:

How do you appeal, what's the process

There's an email address on the fine. The reference number is there too. Email them all the details and wait to see what happens. Might take over a month for them to get back to you.. It did for me. Stick to your guns that it was the ticket sold to you by the employee and I'd hope that common sense would prevail..... But it might not.
If i get any further with my appeal, I'll pm you the sane person that helped me.

Jawgap

OisinDunne wrote: »

I have a yearly ticket and this has happened to me... I got the fine from rpu.went to pearse office next day, showed them my yearly ticket. Fine cancelled.... Common sense prevails.

.....and I've absolutely no problem with that. You shouldn't have to pay twice for the same journey.

But that's not what happened to your daughter - she travelled without having in her possession a valid ticket.

end of the road

Jawgap wrote: »

.....and I've absolutely no problem with that. You shouldn't have to pay twice for the same journey.

But that's not what happened to your daughter - she travelled without having in her possession a valid ticket.

technically he didn't either so its very similar.

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

technically he didn't either so its very similar.

No he didn't, but he had paid for the journey before stepping on the train and was able to prove that to the satisfaction of Irish Rail.

Why do people think people should get away with more with Irish Rail than they would with any other transport company? Try travel on a private bus company without a ticket and see how far convoluted excuses get you

OisinDunne

Jawgap wrote:

Why do people think people should get away with more with Irish Rail than they would with any other transport company? Try travel on a private bus company without a ticket and see how far convoluted excuses get you

My wife had her stolen in Dublin. Matthews coaches allowed her on with the promise that i was waiting for her at the end with the money. Great customer service.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

God you and your family are very unfortunate with public transport tickets

Jawgap

OisinDunne wrote: »

My wife had her stolen in Dublin. Matthews coaches allowed her on with the promise that i was waiting for her at the end with the money. Great customer service.

Yes, Matthews are a great service and their drivers certainly have a decent latitude.

If you think you're right, fine. Don't pay the fine, appeal it and if you lose the appeal wait for the court summons.

Fiskar

Agree the bye laws should be used by the OP, had a particular situation with the self service machines in M3Parkway where a ticket for a 13 yr old /junior could not be purchased without an adult ticket, I have an annual pass.
Only way to get it was via the counter, defeats purpose of self service

Hilly Bill

OisinDunne wrote: »

My daughter (16) was unable to use the automated ticket machine at Balbriggan after the station was closed. I told her to get on the train & I'll pay the fare at Laytown as I was already there and had left my youngest daughter (6) in the care of her older siblings (14 & 11) and needed to get home to her.
The revenue inspectors were at the station at the time and they prevented me from buying as ticket as a method to purchase a ticket was available in Balbriggan. The issued her with a fine upon her arrival in Laytown.
That's the background.
We appealed.....they didn't listen to reason and our appeal failed.
My daughter doesn't want a criminal record so she doesn't want to go to court.
She has no income so I guess I have to pay but I don't want to.
Is there any way that the fine can be passed to me and I can attend court because I really do believe that any sane person will understand that a father doesn't want to leave his 16 year girl at a closed station past 8 at night in an area where teenagers had been attacked within the previous few months -

(Google balbriggan-reels-from-two-cases-of-alleged-rape-31138694 as I can't post urls)

Any ideas or suggestion on what to do?

would you have not just gone and pick her up if you were that concerned for her safety?

end of the road

Jawgap wrote: »

No he didn't, but he had paid for the journey before stepping on the train and was able to prove that to the satisfaction of Irish Rail.

he still didn't have a valid ticket. so it doesn't matter.

Jawgap wrote: »

Why do people think people should get away with more with Irish Rail than they would with any other transport company?

get away with what. these people make an effort to right their mistake and they end up with an over the top fine which drives them to the alternatives, doesn't stop fare evasion, and the company refuses to employ enough staff to make any attempts to deal with it meaningful. its only a money spinner and it looks like something is being done when in actual fact nothing is getting done and the same old same old continues. so forgive me if i've no sympathy for the company TBH.

Jawgap wrote: »

Try travel on a private bus company without a ticket and see how far convoluted excuses get you

what "convoluted excuses" . there is no evidence to prove so called "convoluted excuses" are that. and whats a private bus company who will actually stop people from traveling in the first place got to do with a rail company who barely does anything about any issue?

Hilly Bill

Carawaystick wrote: »

Unless you missed the whole argument about what the byelaws state, it's far from simple.


If this went to court, and the OP's daughter was sucessfully prosecuted, the North County Leader would have a big headline about a callous judge/IÉ punishing a dyslexic person.

Too much bad press for IÉ I'd say.

This throws that argument out the window,

"No saying that there was a problem with the machine...there wasn't but she could use it".

Hilly Bill

OisinDunne wrote: »

Understand that. Issue not with the inspectors but with the appeals process. She travels the train every day for school so usually has a monthly ticket which she gets from the ticket office.
Original question was was there any way that i could go to court instead of her. So far, answers seem to be no. She doesn't want a record so i guess I'll pay the fine and let it be.
Seems to be pointless trying to reason sanity with IR.

This is not Irish Rails appeal board.

Jawgap

end of the road wrote: »

he still didn't have a valid ticket. so it doesn't matter.



get away with what. these people make an effort to right their mistake and they end up with an over the top fine which drives them to the alternatives, doesn't stop fare evasion, and the company refuses to employ enough staff to make any attempts to deal with it meaningful. its only a money spinner and it looks like something is being done when in actual fact nothing is getting done and the same old same old continues. so forgive me if i've no sympathy for the company TBH.



what "convoluted excuses" . there is no evidence to prove so called "convoluted excuses" are that. and whats a private bus company who will actually stop people from traveling in the first place got to do with a rail company who barely does anything about any issue?

Well then it sounds as if the OP will have nothing to worry about

alig123aileen

I am very sorry to hear what happened to your daughter with Irish rail. Even more disappointed to see what I call the wild Atlantic rage alive and well in the replies suggesting you deserve all you have got. May I therefore make a constructive suggestion please? Write to Irishh rail and say you will take a case under Equality legislation see equality board ie because your daughter has a disability. State you were quite prepared to pay but the inspectors prevented you from doing so. Tell Irish rail that you will take a case to the data protection commissioner and insist on CCTV coverage of inspectors stopping you from paying. Also you are entitled under data protection to a copy of their entire file on the matter including interviews with the inspectors that stopped you paying. See data protection.ie Btw a 16 yr old cannot be prosecuted in court in Ireland nor can her parent be held responsible which is pretty ludicrous but true. Alternatively ask them for the name of their freedom of information officer and say you want a copy of your file under FOI. When asked this they tend to give your complaint the attention it deserves and drop any charge. I am confident if you follow these procedures the matter will be dropped and I hope you and your daughter can enjoy the delights of Irish rail again! Happy to help further if you need me to just send me a pm

Hilly Bill

L1011 wrote: »

Those are just two I've encountered when trying to buy the sodding things, there's definitely more. They also do not offer day rambler, or similar anonymous products (before anyone tries to jump in with the ID requirements)

You can get an all day ticket for the short hop zone from them.

L1011 wrote: »

You wanted examples of tickets not available - what other options people can have are irrelevant to the discussion. TVMs do not sell all available tickets a booking office has - end of story.

.

Whats relevant is that an adult ticket from balbriggan to laytown was available to purchase .

P_1 wrote: »

Post the story on their Facebook and twitter pages. I work in customer support and that is a sure fire way of cutting through the red tape. Like others have said this is a pr disaster in the waiting for them

You forgot Joe Duffy

end of the road wrote: »

well, i'm sure this father knows his daughter. so until someone else who knows her can prove its BS, then it isn't. there is nothing to take responsibility for. the fare from wherever she got on to wherever she got off should be payed at destination and that should be the end of it. the penalty fare nonsense is a racket and completely fails to deal with the act of fare evasion.

If people want to continue to evade the fare and get caught and fined then Irish Rail will gladly take the revenue from the fines. If you dont want to give them anymore money then pay the correct fare.

sbkenn wrote: »

A criminal record should be wiped at 18. You are entitled to appear in court on behalf of your daughter, or on your own behalf. If you have evidence of your daughter's dyslexia, so much the better. If you can show that your daughter would have been on her own in Balbriggan if she hadn't jumped on the train, so much the better. Balbriggan has has a fairly high crime rate for some years, with muggings and burglaries on the rise. I believe that violent attacks are a daily occurrence here. Certainly, there is quite a bit of alcohol consumed along the beach and on the harbour, both being quite close to the station. My daughter, even at 22, is wary of coming home after dark.

The OP had no problem with his daughter being in Balbriggan before she was fined

mass_debater wrote: »

Sorry for robbing the thread but I have an issue something similar. My wife dropped our 16 year old son to the train (Boyle - Connolly) during the week. She went herself to the ticket office, was asked what age he was, said 16 and was given a €17 return ticket, she had no idea of the age limits or prices. Later that day in Dublin my son got asked for his ticket by an inspector and when asked his date of birth was told he had the wrong ticket and was charged €133 (€33 for ticket and €100 fine). My wife has twice went back to the train station but the office was closed. Certainly not paying, we have the visa debit receipt. How do we tackle this?

I cant see you having to pay this. Even if you asked for a child ticket and then told the staff member that your son was 16 when asked, you should have been sold an adult ticket. No point going back to the booking office after you got fined, just take it up with the RPU.

Fiskar wrote: »

Agree the bye laws should be used by the OP, had a particular situation with the self service machines in M3Parkway where a ticket for a 13 yr old /junior could not be purchased without an adult ticket, I have an annual pass.
Only way to get it was via the counter, defeats purpose of self service

When was this? You can buy a childs ticket on its own from the machines.

Jawgap

alig123aileen wrote: »

I am very sorry to hear what happened to your daughter with Irish rail. Even more disappointed to see what I call the wild Atlantic rage alive and well in the replies suggesting you deserve all you have got. May I therefore make a constructive suggestion please? Write to Irishh rail and say you will take a case under Equality legislation see equality board ie because your daughter has a disability. State you were quite prepared to pay but the inspectors prevented you from doing so. Tell Irish rail that you will take a case to the data protection commissioner and insist on CCTV coverage of inspectors stopping you from paying. Also you are entitled under data protection to a copy of their entire file on the matter including interviews with the inspectors that stopped you paying. See data protection.ie Btw a 16 yr old cannot be prosecuted in court in Ireland nor can her parent be held responsible which is pretty ludicrous but true. Alternatively ask them for the name of their freedom of information officer and say you want a copy of your file under FOI. When asked this they tend to give your complaint the attention it deserves and drop any charge. I am confident if you follow these procedures the matter will be dropped and I hope you and your daughter can enjoy the delights of Irish rail again! Happy to help further if you need me to just send me a pm

Or better still, don't be so surprised when RPU turn up unexpectedly at an outlying station

Hilly Bill

Jawgap wrote: »

Or better still, don't be so surprised when RPU turn up unexpectedly at an outlying station

I strongly doubt that they would have been in Laytown all day as claimed buy the OP.

alig123aileen

hilly bill yes I am qualified to give legal advice and also have a degree in data protection freedom of information and financial regulation. Anyway I didn't think one had to quotes ones degrees before commenting on boards so thank you for raising the game on adverts to such an advanced level! I take it you have a masters degree in non constructive feedback. I suggest you do some study on Irish law and the fact that kids age 16 are not in jail but in correctional facility/schoolsand kids at 17 who offend can only be offered JLO Garda Liason if they commit a criminal act to try to stop them from crime and Kids can only be placed in jails from age 18. Our law does not make the parent responsible in court or in money terms for a child's actions though a parent may offer to pay for criminal damage done by a child. . The child does not become an adult until age 18 and is then fully accountable in court for a crime.

Fiskar

alig123aileen wrote: »

hilly bill yes I am qualified to give legal advice and also have a degree in data protection freedom of information and financial regulation. Anyway I didn't think one had to quotes ones degrees before commenting on boards so thank you for raising the game on adverts to such an advanced level! I take it you have a masters degree in non constructive feedback. I suggest you do some study on Irish law and the fact that kids age 16 are not in jail but in correctional facility/schoolsand kids at 17 who offend can only be offered JLO Garda Liason if they commit a criminal act to try to stop them from crime and Kids can only be placed in jails from age 18. Our law does not make the parent responsible in court or in money terms for a child's actions though a parent may offer to pay for criminal damage done by a child. . The child does not become an adult until age 18 and is then fully accountable in court for a crime.

In other words OP, as with my junior if caught in the same situation, walk away from it and see how incompetence works to try to get you to go to court for a juvenile.