Irish Rail Fine

OisinDunne · 13-08-2015 9:46am #1

My daughter (16) was unable to use the automated ticket machine at Balbriggan after the station was closed. I told her to get on the train & I'll pay the fare at Laytown as I was already there and had left my youngest daughter (6) in the care of her older siblings (14 & 11) and needed to get home to her.
The revenue inspectors were at the station at the time and they prevented me from buying as ticket as a method to purchase a ticket was available in Balbriggan. The issued her with a fine upon her arrival in Laytown.
That's the background.
We appealed.....they didn't listen to reason and our appeal failed.
My daughter doesn't want a criminal record so she doesn't want to go to court.
She has no income so I guess I have to pay but I don't want to.
Is there any way that the fine can be passed to me and I can attend court because I really do believe that any sane person will understand that a father doesn't want to leave his 16 year girl at a closed station past 8 at night in an area where teenagers had been attacked within the previous few months -

(Google balbriggan-reels-from-two-cases-of-alleged-rape-31138694 as I can't post urls)

Any ideas or suggestion on what to do?

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 13-08-2015 9:49am

Why couldn't she use the self service ticket machine?

tuisginideach · 13-08-2015 9:50am

PM'd you.

OisinDunne · 13-08-2015 9:53am

she has mild dyslexia and hadn't got her glasses. Not a problem with the machine problem was with daughter. No saying that there was a problem with the machine...there wasn't but she could use it. There was no one there to help her and the train was arriving. I, as her father, made the call for her to get on and I'd pay at Laytown (as per article 4 of the CIE bylaws)

tuisginideach · 13-08-2015 9:54am

OK - my PM'd suggestion is probably not relevant then. Sorry.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 13-08-2015 9:55am

The bylaws also state you can't get on the train without a valid ticket. I'd say hlj just have to pay the fine to be honest. Do you really need to have it transferred over? Just call them up with your debit card details and get it over and done with instead of dragging it out

L1011 · 13-08-2015 10:19am

The bye laws also state that if the ticket office is closed, yoy can pay later. A machine is not an office, and yes - they had machines when the bye laws were written

handlemaster · 13-08-2015 10:20am

Pay the fine ... move on

Neon_Lights · 13-08-2015 10:31am

As an ex cie employee i would say fight it with them, my brother had a case of where his ticket got stuck on the machine in heuston while going onto intercity train and got "caught" and they pushed for a court case until they could not categorically prove that he had no ticket (Lost CCTV video, usual ****e), the guys in irish rail revenue protection are souless to be honest but would also not have the inconvienience of a court case on their hands.

LXFlyer · 13-08-2015 11:25am

L1011 wrote: »

The bye laws also state that if the ticket office is closed, yoy can pay later. A machine is not an office, and yes - they had machines when the bye laws were written

That issue has been debated here ad nauseum - the company maintain that if you have the ability to purchase a ticket you must do so, and are effectively maintaining that a ticket machine is equivalent to a booking office.

If you want to challenge that in court, then by all means do so, but I'd be rather careful about suggesting to someone else to try it as we have not seen any evidence that this view of a ticket machine not equalling a ticket office has been accepted by the courts. If it had, I would imagine that the bye laws would have been amended pretty quickly.

OisinDunne wrote: »

she has mild dyslexia and hadn't got her glasses. Not a problem with the machine problem was with daughter. No saying that there was a problem with the machine...there wasn't but she could use it. There was no one there to help her and the train was arriving. I, as her father, made the call for her to get on and I'd pay at Laytown (as per article 4 of the CIE bylaws)

I'm surprised they took such a strong view if you had explained all of that to them? A little bit of common sense would need to be applied.

schemingbohemia · 13-08-2015 11:40am

For future reference get her a student leap card, it would save all the hassle.

Carawaystick · 13-08-2015 12:39pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

For future reference get her a student leap card, it would save all the hassle.

Does a leap card work in Laytown now? leapcard.ie suggest it works only from Balbriggan south...

LXFlyer · 13-08-2015 12:50pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Does a leap card work in Laytown now? leapcard.ie suggest it works only from Balbriggan south...

No - only within the Short Hop Zone.

L1011 · 13-08-2015 1:28pm

lxflyer wrote: »

That issue has been debated here ad nauseum - the company maintain that if you have the ability to purchase a ticket you must do so, and are effectively maintaining that a ticket machine is equivalent to a booking office.

If you want to challenge that in court, then by all means do so, but I'd be rather careful about suggesting to someone else to try it as we have not seen any evidence that this view of a ticket machine not equalling a ticket office has been accepted by the courts. If it had, I would imagine that the bye laws would have been amended pretty quickly.

I'm surprised they took such a strong view if you had explained all of that to them? A little bit of common sense would need to be applied.

It's pretty obvious that Irish Rail would be shouting if from the roof if a precedent setting court had redefined the word "office"

LXFlyer · 13-08-2015 1:37pm

L1011 wrote: »

It's pretty obvious that Irish Rail would be shouting if from the roof if a precedent setting court had redefined the word "office"

Don't you think we would be hearing about in the papers it if the courts started rejecting and throwing out cases on those grounds?

Irish Rail clearly are viewing the two as one and the same and if they are prosecuting people then I find it somewhat difficult to believe that this your view has been taken by the courts.

L1011 · 13-08-2015 1:40pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Don't you think we would be hearing about in the papers it if the courts started rejecting and throwing out cases on those grounds?

Do we hear any of the cases to begin with?

Also, like private clamping, when you have something you don't want blown open you prevent the cases going in the first place. You need to use the right reason in an appeal with that.

Everyone with your illogical view that a machine is an office has never been able to provide any proof that someone using that reason has been successfully prosecuted - or even taken to prosecution.

LXFlyer · 13-08-2015 1:46pm

L1011 wrote: »

Do we hear any of the cases to begin with?

Also, like private clamping, when you have something you don't want blown open you prevent the cases going in the first place. You need to use the right reason in an appeal with that.

Everyone with your illogical view that a machine is an office has never been able to provide any proof that someone using that reason has been successfully prosecuted - or even taken to prosecution.

Well the newspapers do generally pick up on cases being thrown out on a wide variety of topics for technicalities - that's why I would imagine that this would be no different.

I am pretty sure that they have been bringing prosecutions to the courts. There was a statistic published last year I seem to recall.

And with respect - it's not my view per se - it's the view of Irish Rail (with whom I have no connection).

But seeing as though you are so certain about it, why don't you put it to the test?

L1011 · 13-08-2015 1:48pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I am pretty sure that they have been bringing prosecutions to the courts. There was a statistic published last year I seem to recall.

Where someone has made a specific appeal based on that section of the bye laws?

lxflyer wrote: »

But seeing as though you are so certain about it, why don't you put it to the test?

I live in a town that still has a manned station.

LXFlyer · 13-08-2015 1:50pm

L1011 wrote: »

Where someone has made a specific appeal based on that section of the bye laws?

I live in a town that still has a manned station.

I don't know - but again the likelihood is that if the courts were throwing cases out on that ground, that the press would hear about it, as there would be a whole batch of Irish Rail cases together.

Well you seem so keen to suggest to someone that they go to court, that maybe you should go to another station with limited booking office opening hours and try it for them.

It would put an end to this debate one way or the other.

L1011 · 13-08-2015 1:54pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't know - but again the likelihood is that if the courts were throwing cases out on that ground, that the press would hear about it, as there would be a whole batch of Irish Rail cases together.

The likelyhood is, that like private clampers, Irish Rail don't let this get to court when someone uses it as an appeal ground. I don't know a single person who has not had a private clamping "fine" refunded when correctly dealt with (Road Traffic Act, inteference sections). My own prized cheque from APCOA included.

Its extremely unlikely that someone would only become aware of it after a failed appeal.

lxflyer wrote: »

Well you seem so keen to suggest to someone that they go to court, that maybe you should go to another station with limited booking office opening hours and try it for them.

It would put an end to this debate one way or the other.

It appears that the OP is convinced they're going to court anyway.

If you're so sure you're right, you're "knowingly" trying to incite someone to break the law btw.

If anyone can ever give me a logical explanation - "Irish Rail think so" isn't logical, much like most of Irish Rails doings - as to why a reasonable person would assume a machine is an office I'd be delighted to hear it. Remember that Irish Rail had a large network of ticket vending machines at the time of the byelaws.

LXFlyer · 13-08-2015 2:07pm

L1011 wrote: »

The likelyhood is, that like private clampers, Irish Rail don't let this get to court when someone uses it as an appeal ground. I don't know a single person who has not had a private clamping "fine" refunded when correctly dealt with (Road Traffic Act, inteference sections). My own prized cheque from APCOA included.

Its extremely unlikely that someone would only become aware of it after a failed appeal.

It appears that the OP is convinced they're going to court anyway.

If you're so sure you're right, you're "knowingly" trying to incite someone to break the law btw.

With respect I am not inciting anyone to do any such thing. I think suggesting to someone else (by implication) that they should take the case to court on the grounds of the bye laws not covering a machine, while not having any personal knowledge of whether the courts agree with that or not is perhaps somewhat risky to say the least.

I merely put forward the view that IE has publicly stated in their literature with regard to travelling with/without a ticket.

Rail Users Ireland (who let's be honest are not always best buddies with IE) don't recommend trying the line that a booking office doesn't equal a booking office. They seem to take the same view that a booking office and working ticket machine are the same.

And as was clear from my first post above, I think that they should be showing some leniency in this case given that the OP's daughter is suffering from dyslexia.

L1011 · 13-08-2015 2:15pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I merely put forward the view that IE has publicly stated in their literature with regard to travelling with/without a ticket.

And I'm "merely" saying its an illogical viewpoint with no evidence to back it up, relying on someone making an illogical leap that two completely different things are the same.

The same responses that come up every time without even one piece of evidence.

LXFlyer · 13-08-2015 2:30pm

L1011 wrote: »

And I'm "merely" saying its an illogical viewpoint with no evidence to back it up, relying on someone making an illogical leap that two completely different things are the same.

The same responses that come up every time without even one piece of evidence.

I think the vast majority of people would take a common sense view and that if there's a ticket machine at a station, they'll use it.

But clearly you have a different view, and that's your prerogative, but I wouldn't be taking that chance myself.

L1011 · 13-08-2015 2:33pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I think the vast majority of people would take a common sense view and that if there's a ticket machine at a station, they'll use it.

But clearly you have a different view, and that's your prerogative, but I wouldn't be taking that chance myself.

The ticket machines don't take €50 notes

For a prolonged period of time, they had another illogical action in refusing to sell you a child ticket

They do not have all possible destinations on them at all stations, nowhere close in fact.

There are a multitude of times when you cannot use a TVM.

OisinDunne · 13-08-2015 2:35pm

I'd love to go to court and argue the point with them but it is my daughter that the offence is against and she is scared and worried about a criminal record if the judge goes against her. She is only 16. I, on the other hand, would be shouting my record from the rooftops as it would be the stupidest criminal conviction ever. Irish Rail won't allow me to take the case instead of her so I think I'll have to pay and then take them to small claims court to recover as they are undermining my authority as a parent under the constitution:

ARTICLE 41

1 1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

as they are saying that me telling my daughter to get on and I'll look after it was telling her to commit a criminal offence.

I really want to try this against a sane judge to see what happens but my poor daughter is so worried that she doesn't even want me talking about it at home.
Of course the final line of the appeals process states that the appeal decision is not open for appeal....but nothing is ever "not open to appeal" if we try to be reasonable adults about things.

It's not as if she was travelling the lenght and breath of the country evading fares everywhere, drinking & smokeing on the trains and not have a care in the world.
I do really worry about society at times. :-)

LXFlyer · 13-08-2015 2:44pm

L1011 wrote: »

The ticket machines don't take €50 notes

For a prolonged period of time, they had another illogical action in refusing to sell you a child ticket

They do not have all possible destinations on them at all stations, nowhere close in fact.

There are a multitude of times when you cannot use a TVM.

So what do you do when you board a Dublin Bus and only a €50 note on you? Walk straight past the driver?

LXFlyer · 13-08-2015 2:46pm

OisinDunne wrote: »

I'd love to go to court and argue the point with them but it is my daughter that the offence is against and she is scared and worried about a criminal record if the judge goes against her. She is only 16. I, on the other hand, would be shouting my record from the rooftops as it would be the stupidest criminal conviction ever. Irish Rail won't allow me to take the case instead of her so I think I'll have to pay and then take them to small claims court to recover as they are undermining my authority as a parent under the constitution:

ARTICLE 41

1 1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

as they are saying that me telling my daughter to get on and I'll look after it was telling her to commit a criminal offence.

I really want to try this against a sane judge to see what happens but my poor daughter is so worried that she doesn't even want me talking about it at home.
Of course the final line of the appeals process states that the appeal decision is not open for appeal....but nothing is ever "not open to appeal" if we try to be reasonable adults about things.

It's not as if she was travelling the lenght and breath of the country evading fares everywhere, drinking & smokeing on the trains and not have a care in the world.
I do really worry about society at times. :-)

Unfortunately they don't know that (that she has been paying her way).

I do sympathise with you on this, but from what I can see IE are adopting a zero tolerance view on this.

L1011 · 13-08-2015 2:48pm

lxflyer wrote: »

So what do you do when you board a Dublin Bus and only a €50 note on you? Walk straight past the driver?

Dublin Bus provide advance notice that they don't take any bank notes. Irish Rail take bank notes

Can you try come up with some valid comparisons? And maybe deal with the many other reasons why using a TVM may not be possible rather than latching on to the one you can give a trite, invalid 'comparison' for.

LXFlyer · 13-08-2015 2:50pm

Just to revert to the query from L1011 above, a quick google search shows that 356 cases with regard to fare dodging were successfully prosecuted during 2014 in the courts (up from 170 in 2013).

tuisginideach · 13-08-2015 2:50pm

If you board a Dublin Bus with only a note on you (€5 or €200 or anything in between/greater) you will be told to immediately get off again - unless the driver has a bit of common sense and doesn't leave a 16 yr old girl on her own in an isolated place ...

LXFlyer · 13-08-2015 2:51pm

L1011 wrote: »

Dublin Bus provide advance notice that they don't take any bank notes. Irish Rail take bank notes

Can you try come up with some valid comparisons? And maybe deal with the many other reasons why using a TVM may not be possible rather than latching on to the one you can give a trite, invalid 'comparison' for.

Or maybe I just take the view that I should always have a ticket before I travel, unless it is impossible to do so.

It tends to make life easier for everyone in the long run.

Irish Rail Fine

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