Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Irish Rail Fine

Options
2456

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,951 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Just to revert to the query from L1011 above, a quick google search shows that 356 cases with regard to fare dodging were successfully prosecuted during 2014 in the courts (up from 170 in 2013).

    My query was never how many cases were prosecuted in the courts, as you well know - meaning these figures are of zero relevance to the thread.

    It was how many were prosecuted when that specific reason has been given in an appeal. Can you find that out, rather than providing irrelevant side data?


  • Options
    #33
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,951 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Or maybe I just take the view that I should always have a ticket, unless it is impossible to do so.

    It tends to make life easier for everyone in the long run.

    And TVMs often make it impossible to get a ticket that a booking office is perfectly capable of selling.

    You are incredibly determined to try push Irish Rails viewpoint here despite continually claiming to have no interest in doing so.


  • Options
    #34
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    L1011 wrote: »
    My query was never how many cases were prosecuted in the courts, as you well know - meaning these figures are of zero relevance to the thread.

    It was how many were prosecuted when that specific reason has been given in an appeal. Can you find that out, rather than providing irrelevant side data?

    I'm pretty sure the ticket machines have a notice on them stating that they don't accept €50 - that's surely notice that you can't use them?

    Listen you're going around in rings here trying to come up with reasons not to have a ticket. It's somewhat pathetic - I have better things to do with my time than to bother continuing an extremely legalistic and pedantic argument.

    I think it's just far easier to make sure you have a ticket before you travel as I said above.


  • Options
    #35
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    L1011 wrote: »
    And TVMs often make it impossible to get a ticket that a booking office is perfectly capable of selling.

    You are incredibly determined to try push Irish Rails viewpoint here despite continually claiming to have no interest in doing so.

    As someone who has always made sure that I have a valid ticket to travel, and pay the correct fares, I get tired of this view that people put forward as potentially a way they can get around the system, that's all.

    If there's a method of buying a ticket people should use it.

    It's a very simple view and I tend to stick to it.


  • Options
    #36
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,951 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure the ticket machines have a notice on them stating that they don't accept €50 - that's surely notice that you can't use them?

    Listen you're going around in rings here trying to come up with reasons not to have a ticket. It's somewhat pathetic - I have better things to do with my time than to bother continuing an extremely legalistic and pedantic argument.

    I think it's just far easier to make sure you have a ticket before you travel as I said above.

    Booking offices take them. Booking offices hours are not published and can be closed at random, leaving someone who would otherwise be able to buy a ticket from them unable to if the TVM won't.

    If anyone is going around in rings - its you. Dragging up irrelevant figures, throwing more and more pathetic and irrelevant excuses in.


    lxflyer wrote: »
    If there's a method of buying a ticket people should use it.

    It's a very simple view and I tend to stick to it.

    And when there isn't one? You're just making further and further excuses to try avoid this.

    TVMs do not sell all tickets. TVMs do not take all accepted by Irish Rail payment types.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,149 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    L1011 wrote: »
    The ticket machines don't take €50 notes.

    Yes they do


  • Options
    #38
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,951 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    Yes they do

    For ticket payments over a certain value only. Unlike booking offices, which take them for all value payments.

    lxflyer's previously baseless complaints of pedantry need to be directed at you, I think.


  • Options
    #39
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Pay the fine or go to court (and then pay a bigger fine probably).
    Seems pretty simple.


  • Options
    #40
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    psinno wrote: »
    Seems pretty simple.
    Unless you missed the whole argument about what the byelaws state, it's far from simple.


    If this went to court, and the OP's daughter was sucessfully prosecuted, the North County Leader would have a big headline about a callous judge/IÉ punishing a dyslexic person.

    Too much bad press for IÉ I'd say.


  • Options
    #41
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Unless you missed the whole argument about what the byelaws state, it's far from simple.

    That is pretty irrelevant to the choices the OP has open to them. They can pay the fine or not. If they don't the likely result is a court case. The bylaws will have some relevancy to the result of the court case.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭josip


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I'm surprised they took such a strong view if you had explained all of that to them? A little bit of common sense would need to be applied.

    Based on our experience I'm not.
    In the Irish Rail world of justice, the scales are missing.
    Best to pay the fine and spare yourself a lot of time and energy dealing with their Revenue Protection department.
    Also no point trying to engage with their Customer Service department.


  • Options
    #43
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,142 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Sounds to me like her disability prevented her from accessing the only way she was provided with on the station of getting a ticket.
    If I was a PR person in Irish Rail, I would be dropping this case like the hot potato it is.
    Is there no-one sane left in positions of responsibility any more?


  • Options
    #44
    Wild Garlic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Wild Garlic


    spurious wrote: »
    Sounds to me like her disability prevented her from accessing the only way she was provided with on the station of getting a ticket.
    If I was a PR person in Irish Rail, I would be dropping this case like the hot potato it is.
    Is there no-one sane left in positions of responsibility any more?

    Spot on. Because of her disability she was unable to purchase a ticket. Which prevented her to legally use the service. Afaik Irish Rail have an obligation to provided a comparable service to all regardless of ability and in my view are discriminating if they don't provide this.
    This is what I would be arguing OP.


  • Options
    #45
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Wild Garlic wrote: »
    Spot on. Because of her disability she was unable to purchase a ticket. Which prevented her to legally use the service. Afaik Irish Rail have an obligation to provided a comparable service to all regardless of ability and in my view are discriminating if they don't provide this.
    This is what I would be arguing OP.
    There must be some limit on how far companies are expected to go to provide for disabled persons? (I don't know anything about this area, genuine question).

    I have sympathy for the OP, but I don't see why he is making any of this out to be Irish Rail's problem. Half the country would be claiming "mild dyslexia" to get out of fines the week after.


  • Options
    #46
    Wild Garlic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Wild Garlic


    hmmm wrote: »
    There must be some limit on how far companies are expected to go to provide for disabled persons? (I don't know anything about this area, genuine question).

    I have sympathy for the OP, but I don't see why he is making any of this out to be Irish Rail's problem. Half the country would be claiming "mild dyslexia" to get out of fines the week after.

    True enough but if it was my 16yr old daughter that had this disability(assuming dyslexia is classed as a disability) I would be able to provide proof and would forward this proof onto IR, case closed.
    If sure if every second person fined started claiming they had Dyslexia it would be reasonable for IR to require verification.


  • Options
    #47
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    OisinDunne wrote: »
    I think I'll have to pay and then take them to small claims court to recover as they are undermining my authority as a parent under the constitution:
    With respect, this is a nonsense argument. Your "authority as a parent" does not allow you to ignore any laws or bylaws you don't believe should apply to your children. Of course everyone tells their children to ignore laws if their safety is at stake, but again that is your problem and not Irish Rails.


  • Options
    #48
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Wild Garlic wrote: »
    True enough but if it was my 16yr old daughter that had this disability(assuming dyslexia is classed as a disability) I would be able to provide proof and would forward this proof onto IR, case closed.
    What do blind people do?


  • Options
    #49
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,951 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    hmmm wrote: »
    What do blind people do?

    They would almost inevitably have a travel pass, which in case of a station without an open booking office you just board.


  • Options
    #50
    OisinDunne
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭OisinDunne


    hmmm wrote:
    There must be some limit on how far companies are expected to go to provide for disabled persons? (I don't know anything about this area, genuine question).

    hmmm wrote:
    I have sympathy for the OP, but I don't see why he is making any of this out to be Irish Rail's problem. Half the country would be claiming "mild dyslexia" to get out of fines the week after.


    But i was willing to pay at the other end. I was standing there with cash in hand and not allowed to. The issue i have is that i wasn't encouraging my child to fare evade but rather keep herself safe and the appeal process doesn't allow for child safety.


  • Options
    #51
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    Its a tricky one, one that could easily have been dealt with at the laytown station, Dad buys a ticket for the reverse journey and the inspector bins it , everyone happy.

    Unfortunately the ticket inspectors have heard every excuse in the book and then some, if they were to give in to all of the excuses then they wouldnt be doing their jobs.

    If it goes to court a sane judge might well side on the Dads side and give off to IR, on the other hand if the dad starts citing constitutional crap as to why his daughter hadnt a ticket then he could easily go through him for a short cut.

    Its easy to have sympathy for the OP but its his and his daughters responsibility to make sure that they have a ticket boarding the train, was the daughter running late and could she not get someone to help her ? Theres only so much that IR can do to facilitate everyone.

    Agree with above though it could be a PR disaster for IR.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    shodge
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 68 ✭✭shodge


    All this discussion has done is establish dyslexia is not a classed as a disability, if it was the girl would have a free travel pass.
    This whole thing is just posters looking for a reason not to pay the fare, no doubt the same posters will complain the fare are to high, you can’t have it both ways, Either fare evasion is tackled or the fares will continue to rise.


  • Options
    #53
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    L1011 wrote: »
    They would almost inevitably have a travel pass, which in case of a station without an open booking office you just board.
    Only permanent residents can get a free travel pass.


  • Options
    #54
    shodge
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 68 ✭✭shodge


    OisinDunne wrote: »
    But i was willing to pay at the other end. I was standing there with cash in hand and not allowed to. The issue i have is that i wasn't encouraging my child to fare evade but rather keep herself safe and the appeal process doesn't allow for child safety.

    But if no ticket checkers where there i doubt you would have posted in a cheque for the price of a ticket.


  • Options
    #55
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    OisinDunne wrote: »
    But i was willing to pay at the other end. I was standing there with cash in hand and not allowed to. The issue i have is that i wasn't encouraging my child to fare evade but rather keep herself safe and the appeal process doesn't allow for child safety.

    I understand what you are saying but the inspectors would take the view that if they werent there that its unlikely that you would then buy a ticket and throw it away thus insuring that they lost no revenue.

    They have also no way of knowing that your daughter hasnt been doing this for years. (not suggesting that she has). Thats why a fine was issued.


  • Options
    #56
    OisinDunne
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭OisinDunne


    shodge wrote:
    All this discussion has done is establish dyslexia is not a classed as a disability, if it was the girl would have a free travel pass. This whole thing is just posters looking for a reason not to pay the fare, no doubt the same posters will complain the fare are to high, you can’t have it both ways, Either fare evasion is tackled or the fares will continue to rise.


    The only reason i mentioned her dydlexia is that that is why she finds it very hard to use the machines. Not trying to avoid the fare at all. Was willing to pay for her at Laytown but i wasn't allowed to


  • Options
    #57
    shodge
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 68 ✭✭shodge


    OisinDunne wrote: »
    The only reason i mentioned her dydlexia is that that is why she finds it very hard to use the machines. Not trying to avoid the fare at all. Was willing to pay for her at Laytown but i wasn't allowed to

    and if you where not caught she would have travel for free.


  • Options
    #58
    OisinDunne
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭OisinDunne


    Shelflife wrote:
    I understand what you are saying but the inspectors would take the view that if they werent there that its unlikely that you would then buy a ticket and throw it away thus insuring that they lost no revenue.

    Shelflife wrote:
    They have also no way of knowing that your daughter hasnt been doing this for years. (not suggesting that she has). Thats why a fine was issued.


    Understand that. Issue not with the inspectors but with the appeals process. She travels the train every day for school so usually has a monthly ticket which she gets from the ticket office.
    Original question was was there any way that i could go to court instead of her. So far, answers seem to be no. She doesn't want a record so i guess I'll pay the fine and let it be.
    Seems to be pointless trying to reason sanity with IR.


  • Options
    #59
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭daheff


    I dont think you can go to court for her, but as parent can go with her.


    I understand your frustration with IR -they're an awful shower and are getting worse, but i dont see you having any joy even if you go to court. I'd pay the fine and continue to appeal. Try their twitter account....you might get somebody with an ounce of sense who might contact you and sort it out sensibly.


    If not, pay up, build a bridge and get over it :(


  • Options
    #60
    OisinDunne
    Registered Users Posts: 36 ✭OisinDunne


    shodge wrote:
    and if you where not caught she would have travel for free.


    Nope. They were at the station all day. I knew they were there before she even got on the train in Balbriggan. I was even talking to them when she rang me all worried about not being able to work the machine.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    Wild Garlic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Wild Garlic


    hmmm wrote: »
    What do blind people do?

    Well if a situation arose where a visually impaired person was unable to use a service and that situation was the result of actions/ non-action/ or conditions caused by IR well then that would be discrimination also.


Advertisement