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Irish Rail Fine

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    #62
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I think the vast majority of people would take a common sense view and that if there's a ticket machine at a station, they'll use it.

    But clearly you have a different view, and that's your prerogative, but I wouldn't be taking that chance myself.
    If they are able to use it, some don't accept cash at times and others won't accept cards or cash while others will accept coins or notes only. often partially sighted or dyslexic people are unable to use the machines every time they need to.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    I merely put forward the view that IE has publicly stated in their literature with regard to travelling with/without a ticket.
    They state that if you can buy a ticket before your journey you must do so, they do not state if there is a machine at the station you must use it because some people will be unable to use the machines including those who are dyslexic or illiterate.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    Just to revert to the query from L1011 above, a quick google search shows that 356 cases with regard to fare dodging were successfully prosecuted during 2014 in the courts (up from 170 in 2013).
    How many involved a situation where the person was physically unable to buy a ticket before travel?
    lxflyer wrote: »
    As someone who has always made sure that I have a valid ticket to travel, and pay the correct fares, I get tired of this view that people put forward as potentially a way they can get around the system, that's all.

    If there's a method of buying a ticket people should use it.

    It's a very simple view and I tend to stick to it.

    There is always a method of buying a ticket but it is not always accessible to everyone just like lifts at stations are often broken for long periods or simply locked up when staff depart or not opened at all(one lift in Balbriggan is often left locked up while the other side is opened). Nobody can be perfect all of the time but Common Sense should prevail where it is freely available to be availed of!


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    #63
    tuisginideach
    Registered Users Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭tuisginideach


    OisinDunne wrote: »
    Nope. They were at the station all day. I knew they were there before she even got on the train in Balbriggan. I was even talking to them when she rang me all worried about not being able to work the machine.

    And did you ask them then what she should do/ could you pay at Laytown?


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    #64
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    I think it's extremely insulting dyslexic people can't read the options on a tvm, they're not stupid, they can actually read, albeit a little bit slower than someone without dyslexia.


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    #65
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,148 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    L1011 wrote: »
    For ticket payments over a certain value only. Unlike booking offices, which take them for all value payments.

    lxflyer's previously baseless complaints of pedantry need to be directed at you, I think.

    There is no obligation to accept anything other than exact change, provision of change or credit/debit card service is a courtesy. A staffed booking office could refuse a 50 euro note also.

    No ticket where a ticket was available before boarding is an automatic fine.


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    #66
    Wild Garlic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Wild Garlic


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    There is no obligation to accept anything other than exact change, provision of change or credit/debit card service is a courtesy. A staffed booking office could refuse a 50 euro note also.

    No ticket where a ticket was available before boarding is an automatic fine.

    Eh? change and/or card facility is a courtesy, REALLY?


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    #67
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    Wild Garlic wrote: »
    Eh? change and/or card facility is a courtesy, REALLY?

    Legally there is no requirement for a shop for eg to provide change, it's up to the buyer to proffer the correct amount.

    It would be a short lived business that operated such a method.

    It's been mentioned on numerous threads in the consumer section


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    #68
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    goingnowhere wrote: »
    There is no obligation to accept anything other than exact change, provision of change or credit/debit card service is a courtesy. A staffed booking office could refuse a 50 euro note also.

    No ticket where a ticket was available before boarding is an automatic fine.

    All the "could"s in the world don't change the fact that they don't refuse it.

    There are multiple cases where a TVM cannot provide you with the ticket a ticket office could. Ticket office opening times are often advertised and then frequently not adhered to. There were TVMs - plenty of them - when the byelaws were written.

    Only someone with a very poor grasp of English could interpret the byelaws as obliging you to use a TVM. This thread is full of them, though.


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    #69
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    L1011 wrote: »
    All the "could"s in the world don't change the fact that they don't refuse it.

    There are multiple cases where a TVM cannot provide you with the ticket a ticket office could. Ticket office opening times are often advertised and then frequently not adhered to. There were TVMs - plenty of them - when the byelaws were written.

    Only someone with a very poor grasp of English could interpret the byelaws as obliging you to use a TVM. This thread is full of them, though.

    And would you advise someone to do precisely that - not buy a ticket from a working TVM for a journey from say Clonsilla to Connolly when the booking office is closed, if for example they're arriving at the same time as the train?

    I'm curious to learn of this multitude of tickets that cannot be bought - presumably these are going to be common occurrences rather than (for example) a ticket from Coolmine to Gort?


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    #70
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    lxflyer wrote: »
    And would you advise someone to do precisely that - not buy a ticket from a working TVM for a journey from say Clonsilla to Connolly when the booking office is closed, if for example they're arriving at the same time as the train?

    I'm curious to learn of this multitude of tickets that cannot be bought - presumably these are going to be common occurrences rather than (for example) a ticket from Coolmine to Gort?

    If they're arriving the same time as the train they wouldn't have had time to get a ticket from a booking office in the first place, there's a time when something is someones fault rather than Irish Rails penny pinching, demanning of stations and poor scheduling having any contribution to it. However, if they asked for advice on how to write an appeal I'd still tell them what should work.

    Go take a look at the station list available in Connolly or Heuston then compare to a suburban station (which has direct connections to those services - I'm not expecting Clonsilla TVMs to sell tickets to Glounthane.


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    #71
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    L1011 wrote: »
    If they're arriving the same time as the train they wouldn't have had time to get a ticket from a booking office in the first place, there's a time when something is someones fault rather than Irish Rails penny pinching, demanning of stations and poor scheduling having any contribution to it. However, if they asked for advice on how to write an appeal I'd still tell them what should work.

    Go take a look at the station list available in Connolly or Heuston then compare to a suburban station (which has direct connections to those services - I'm not expecting Clonsilla TVMs to sell tickets to Glounthane.

    Well I'm asking you as you're the one making the claim repeatedly on this thread about tickets that cannot be purchased from a TVM, so perhaps for all of our benefit you could enlighten us all here.


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    #72
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    L1011 wrote: »
    If they're arriving the same time as the train they wouldn't have had time to get a ticket from a booking office in the first place, there's a time when something is someones fault rather than Irish Rails penny pinching, demanning of stations and poor scheduling having any contribution to it. However, if they asked for advice on how to write an appeal I'd still tell them what should work.

    Go take a look at the station list available in Connolly or Heuston then compare to a suburban station (which has direct connections to those services - I'm not expecting Clonsilla TVMs to sell tickets to Glounthane.

    And how about if they show up at Clonsilla, in good time for a train to Connolly, and the booking office is shut, and there is a working TVM, what should they do?


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    #73
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well I'm asking you as you're the one making the claim repeatedly on this thread about tickets that cannot be purchased from a TVM, so perhaps for all of our benefit you could enlighten us all here.

    Dublin commuter zone -> Stations in NI. Can be bought at the ticket office.

    I'm pretty certain that stations south of Bray didn't show on the Maynooth TVMs despite *direct* trains (in the past, potentially - I've not checked the timetable of late).

    Those are just two I've encountered when trying to buy the sodding things, there's definitely more. They also do not offer day rambler, or similar anonymous products (before anyone tries to jump in with the ID requirements). Expecting someone to buy a ticket they will not need, buy the correct pass at a further station, apply for a refund, get a cheque for a few quid and lodge it (paying charges) is ridiculous.

    I'm not going to bother with your pointless and inexplicable 20 questions in the second set of replies. My opinions on what people should or shouldn't do are completely irrelevant to the legislation we're discussing. You clearly hope to try take some form of little mini victory out of them, for whatever reason.


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    #74
    Wild Garlic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Wild Garlic


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well I'm asking you as you're the one making the claim repeatedly on this thread about tickets that cannot be purchased from a TVM, so perhaps for all of our benefit you could enlighten us all here.

    There was an issue purchasing certain types(city centre add ons, season tickets, student tickets)of tickets from tvm's but if think this has been rectified. However the main issue with tvm's now is the lack of destinations programmed into the tvm's ( more of a problem on intercity lines)


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    #75
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    L1011 wrote: »
    Dublin commuter zone -> Stations in NI. Can be bought at the ticket office.

    I'm pretty certain that stations south of Bray don't show on the Maynooth TVMs despite *direct* trains (in the past, potentially).

    Those are just two I've encountered when trying to buy the sodding things, there's definitely more. They also do not offer day rambler, or similar anonymous products (before anyone tries to jump in with the ID requirements)

    I'm not sure there are multitudes wanting to do those trips too - but even if they did, I am be pretty sure that using a LEAP card for the commuter run and buying the Intercity ticket at Connolly would in both those cases be cheaper.

    Also the single day cap is cheaper on LEAP than the one day ticket.

    You can buy a LEAP card from a TVM by the way.


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    #76
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Only permanent residents can get a free travel pass.

    Presumably they would just use a leap card. I haven't used them since I mostly walk now but they seem like the most suitable thing for a vision impaired person.


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    #77
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I'm not sure there are multitudes wanting to do those trips too - but even if they did, I am be pretty sure that using a LEAP card for the commuter run and buying the Intercity ticket at Connolly would in both those cases be cheaper.

    Also the single day cap is cheaper on LEAP than the one day ticket.

    You wanted examples of tickets not available - what other options people can have are irrelevant to the discussion. TVMs do not sell all available tickets a booking office has - end of story.

    Not everyone *has* or for that matter *wants* a leap card. As goes buying it to get a cheaper ticket - on a once off, its quite a significant cost and the refund process for the card cost is impractical.


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    #78
    Wild Garlic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Wild Garlic


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I'm not sure there are multitudes wanting to do those trips too - but even if they did, I am be pretty sure that using a LEAP card for the commuter run and buying the Intercity ticket at Connolly would in both those cases be cheaper.

    Also the single day cap is cheaper on LEAP than the one day ticket.

    You can buy a LEAP card from a TVM by the way.
    Plenty do those trips.
    In some cases yes it would be cheaper but more often than not it wouldn't.


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    #79
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    L1011 wrote: »
    You wanted examples of tickets not available - what other options people can have are irrelevant to the discussion. TVMs do not sell all available tickets a booking office has - end of story.

    Not everyone *has* or for that matter *wants* a leap card. As goes buying it to get a cheaper ticket - on a once off, its quite a significant cost and the refund process for the card cost is impractical.

    I'm sorry but you are really clutching at straws here. You're picking examples of tickets that in the main would be cheaper either combining a standard suburban/DART ticket or LEAP, and an Intercity ticket from Connolly purchased online -the numbers of people who would be doing what you suggest are going to be very low as it is (let's be honest) a bit stupid considering there are cheaper options.

    It is hardly going to represent multitudes of trips that you suggested.

    Also the IE website helpfully lists all the booking office hours of opening if you still want to buy said ticket.


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    #80
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    OisinDunne wrote: »
    My daughter (16) was unable to use the automated ticket machine at Balbriggan after the station was closed. I told her to get on the train & I'll pay the fare at Laytown as I was already there and had left my youngest daughter (6) in the care of her older siblings (14 & 11) and needed to get home to her.
    The revenue inspectors were at the station at the time and they prevented me from buying as ticket as a method to purchase a ticket was available in Balbriggan. The issued her with a fine upon her arrival in Laytown.
    That's the background.
    We appealed.....they didn't listen to reason and our appeal failed.
    My daughter doesn't want a criminal record so she doesn't want to go to court.
    She has no income so I guess I have to pay but I don't want to.
    Is there any way that the fine can be passed to me and I can attend court because I really do believe that any sane person will understand that a father doesn't want to leave his 16 year girl at a closed station past 8 at night in an area where teenagers had been attacked within the previous few months -

    (Google balbriggan-reels-from-two-cases-of-alleged-rape-31138694 as I can't post urls)

    Any ideas or suggestion on what to do?

    How could the revenue guys have prevented you from buying a ticket, if you were already there?

    Why didn't you just make the 15 minute drive to Balbriggan to pick her up?


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    #81
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,950 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I'm sorry but you are really clutching at straws here. You're picking examples of tickets that in the main would be cheaper either combining a standard commuter ticket or LEAP, and an Intercity ticket from Connolly purchased online -the numbers of people who would be doing what you suggest are going to be very low as it is (let's be honest) a bit stupid considering there are cheaper options.

    You're the one who was moaning about "pedantic" arguments earlier, and now you're trying to worm away from the fact that specific tickets are unavailable by giving potentially impractical alternatives.

    There are tickets that are unavailable. End of story. I won't reply to more pathetic attempts to justify that way with byzantine alternatives.

    I never suggested it was a multitude of trips - you've added that bit yourself to try back your arguments.
    lxflyer wrote: »
    Also the IE website helpfully lists all the booking office hours of opening if you still want to buy said ticket.

    None of which, bar the main city stations, are even approaching accurate. Bringing us back to the problem again - you can easily turn up when a station is meant to be manned and it simply isn't.


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    #82
    shodge
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 68 ✭✭shodge


    OisinDunne wrote: »
    Nope. They were at the station all day. I knew they were there before she even got on the train in Balbriggan. I was even talking to them when she rang me all worried about not being able to work the machine.

    If you made this statement in court the judge would call a recess and tell you to go talk to your solicitor and when you come back change your plea to guilty.


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    #83
    Neon_Lights
    Registered Users Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭Neon_Lights


    Broombridge to Connolly you can pay on arrival.... i dont get whats different here? is that in the byelaws? Also the amount of auld ones that pay on the trains on intercity trips... this is a shambles... i suppose for an organization that has circa a billion in capital debt on their balance sheet you would be pinching every penny


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    #84
    goingnowhere
    Registered Users Posts: 4,148 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Neon_Lights wrote: »
    Broombridge to Connolly you can pay on arrival.... i dont get whats different here? is that in the byelaws? Also the amount of auld ones that pay on the trains on intercity trips... this is a shambles... i suppose for an organization that has circa a billion in capital debt on their balance sheet you would be pinching every penny

    You can't buy a ticket in Broombridge, hence you pay on board or at destination.


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    #85
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Post the story on their Facebook and twitter pages. I work in customer support and that is a sure fire way of cutting through the red tape. Like others have said this is a pr disaster in the waiting for them


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    #86
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    P_1 wrote: »
    Post the story on their Facebook and twitter pages. I work in customer support and that is a sure fire way of cutting through the red tape. Like others have said this is a pr disaster in the waiting for them

    that's the answer to everything nowadays, break out the internet torches and pitchforks over the tiniest of issues.


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    #87
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Yeah I mean really, I don't see the issue here.
    16 year old didn't buy a ticket, despite there being a working ticket machine
    Father instructs daughter to get on train
    Daughter gets on the train without ticket and gets fined
    Father outraged that he was undermined as a parent and talks about sueing Irish rail for breaching his constitutional right.

    Father claims his daughters dyslexia is a mild form and that it was because she also didn't have her glasses with her. Although apparently she could use her phone to call/text but not read the ticket machine?


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    #88
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Yeah I mean really, I don't see the issue here.
    16 year old didn't buy a ticket, despite there being a working ticket machine
    Father instructs daughter to get on train
    Daughter gets on the train without ticket and gets fined
    Father outraged that he was undermined as a parent and talks about sueing Irish rail for breaching his constitutional right.

    Father claims his daughters dyslexia is a mild form and that it was because she also didn't have her glasses with her. Although apparently she could use her phone to call/text but not read the ticket machine?

    It is all a bit "the dog ate my homework".

    As someone else already pointed out, if mild dyslexia was an excuse that worked and got the fine overturned after a court case then half the country would use it because it would make headlines as a "boo! hiss! that evil irish Rail" story.

    Not having glasses to read the machine was the girls fault. As was turning up with insufficient time to purchase a ticket/ask someone for help with the machine considering her condition.

    The RPU guys have heard every excuse in the book so asking them to have a heart or use what you think is "common sense" is pointless because they deal with spoofers every day of the week as a matter of course in their work day.


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    #89
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I'm not sure there are multitudes wanting to do those trips too - but even if they did, I am be pretty sure that using a LEAP card for the commuter run and buying the Intercity ticket at Connolly would in both those cases be cheaper.

    Also the single day cap is cheaper on LEAP than the one day ticket.

    You can buy a LEAP card from a TVM by the way.

    But as you've clarified, leap doesn't work to Laytown.


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    #90
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    But as you've clarified, leap doesn't work to Laytown.

    I wasn't referring to Laytown - I was talking about stations within the Short Hop Zone in that context in response to a different poster who was claiming there were multiple reasons not to buy a ticket from a TVM.


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    #91
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Yeah I mean really, I don't see the issue here.
    16 year old didn't buy a ticket, despite there being a working ticket machine
    Father instructs daughter to get on train
    Daughter gets on the train without ticket and gets fined
    Father outraged that he was undermined as a parent and talks about sueing Irish rail for breaching his constitutional right.

    Father claims his daughters dyslexia is a mild form and that it was because she also didn't have her glasses with her. Although apparently she could use her phone to call/text but not read the ticket machine?

    I personally dont get the Dyslexia argument either. I have Dyslexia and generally I will mix up my understanding of words, like though and through. It would never hinder my ability to press Child/Adult and zones/place name required on the screen. I find the Dyslexia argument BS. I think if your daughter is able to function in a School at 16, what Judge is going to buy the story of " she has Dyslexia and cant use a ticket machine". I going to hazard a guess, that the child has laptop and phone, that she uses without support either?

    I think when do dumb **** like not pay for a ticket and get fined. Its easier to blame someone, than to take responsibility.


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