Religion in junior infants

sbsquarepants

SpaceTime wrote: »

Just to give you a sense of what you're dealing with this is from the current Department of Education Rules for national schools and applies to ALL Irish schools, even Educate Together!

Rule 68

“Of all the parts of a school curriculum Religious Instruction is by far the most important, as its subject-matter, God’s honour and service, includes the proper use of all man’s faculties, and affords the most powerful inducements to their proper use. Religious Instruction is, therefore, a fundamental part of the school course, and a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school.

The teacher should constantly inculcate the practice of charity, justice, truth, purity, patience, temperance, obedience to lawful authority, and all the other moral virtues. In this way he will fulfil the primary duty of an educator, the moulding to perfect form of his pupils’ character, habituating them to observe, in their relations with God and with their neighbour, the laws which God, both directly through the dictates of natural reason and through Revelation, and indirectly through the ordinance of lawful authority, imposes on mankind.”

Jesus Christ - reads like something from Saudi Arabia!

eviltwin

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Harr I am unable to reply directly to you as am using the app so I hope you see this.

None of the teachers, to my knowledge, spend 2.5hours per week on religion. There simply isn't the time. It is a very packed curriculum and I never seem to have enough time, even without the religion!

Once a year we are visited by a religion advisor. They're not really an inspector and are generally very nice. I've told a nun before I didn't think much of the Alive o programme and now it's being changed! Finally! They ask children a couple of questions, stories etc but they don't visit for more than ten minutes or so. I

Lazy gal I think it was you who had an issue with children saying prayers etc. I don't see how it's any different to learning off poems or gaeilge paragraphs!!!!

You're a teacher and you don't see the difference between teaching kids facts vs fiction :eek:

Neyite

Parrrent wrote: »

How recent? Not in my lifetime. Yes those times were terrible, horrible Eric and the church has done some truly awful things but no more than the state has IMO.

Yes, they happened in your lifetime, unless you live under a rock or are under 20.

Victims of Magdalene laundries are only in their 50's and 60's and still alive. So are their torturers. My aunt in her sixties was excommunicated for marrying a Protestant 30 years ago. Girls were routinely kicked out of my RCC secondary school if they got pregnant, and I did my LC in the nineties. My cousin was forced by the parish priest to give her baby up for adoption in the late 80's and got zero support from her parents, in fact was deemed lucky they didn't sling her out on her arse because of it. She's only in her early forties now. These are not unique to my family, these situations were widespread.

wrote:

Anyway my point is that the vast majority of people when they come of age will think for themselves and can leave the church of their own free will it like me, just not participate in anything. It's not compulsory for an adult like myself and it doesn't affect my life one bit.

No. You cant. As far as the RCC are concerned, you will always be counted as one of them - you used to be able to sign up to Count Me Out but they shut that down. So in the words of a well known song: you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

eviltwin

Parrrent wrote: »

How recent? Not in my lifetime. Yes those times were terrible, horrible Eric and the church has done some truly awful things but no more than the state has IMO.

Anyway my point is that the vast majority of people when they come of age will think for themselves and can leave the church of their own free will it like me, just not participate in anything. It's not compulsory for an adult like myself and it doesn't affect my life one bit.

You say it doesn't affect people and yet most continue the cycle despite claiming to have any belief in it. Culturally it has an impact, why do you think there is still a fear for some people to come out, why is abortion and divorce such a stigma? It has more of an impact than you might think.

Orion

Parrrent wrote: »

can leave the church of their own free will it like me,

How exactly does one do that?

In late August 2010, the Holy See confirmed that it was no longer possible to defect formally from the Catholic Church. However, the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin declared on 12 October 2010 that it intended to keep a register of those who expressed the wish to defect. Since this fell short of making an annotation in the baptismal register, CountMeOut (an association in the archdiocese that had been promoting formal defections from the Catholic Church) thereupon ceased to provide defection forms.

Tea 1000

eviltwin wrote: »

You're a teacher and you don't see the difference between teaching kids facts vs fiction :eek:

Are poems facts? This is the sort of hyperbole that has boards ruined. :rolleyes:

Orion

Poems are verses written as fiction. Religion is verses taught as fact. Big difference.

eviltwin

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Are poems facts? This is the sort of hyperbole that has boards ruined. :rolleyes:

Poems aren't taught as being factual

Tea 1000

eviltwin wrote: »

Poems aren't taught as being factual

Neither are prayers.

sm213

ThisRegard wrote: »

Yes, that's why I qualified it with for the most part. They do tend to be a lot more relaxed about it and religion, as in Catholicism, is not a junior or leaving cert subject is it ?

It's compulsory for JC and lc .
I had to know a detailed version of the stations of the cross for JC religion that was 9 years ago. Other religions are touched upon but curriculum is mainly Catholicism.
Lc hugely depends on your teachers views as its not an exam subject I.e waste of time when you could be learning/studying.
Our school had divided religion between four teachers so got 4 viewpoints. One of which sex before marriage is wrong, one all about praying.
Luckily the other two teachers allowed for open discussion and interpretation of religion rather than forcing it on us. I'm sure not every group is so lucky.

zeffabelli

The church has pretty much now confirmed its a cult by saying you can't leave.

Neyite

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Neither are prayers.

You are taught in school to analyse, discuss and debate the meaning of poetry. The opposite of what you are taught to do with prayer.

Tea 1000

Neyite wrote: »

You are taught in school to analyse, discuss and debate the meaning of poetry. The opposite of what you are taught to do with prayer.

Not in the more junior classes in Primary school you aren't.
In the more senior classes in religion in my school, we used to analyse, discuss and debate religion stories too.

eviltwin

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Not in the more junior classes in Primary school you aren't.
In the more senior classes in religion in my school, we used to analyse, discuss and debate religion stories too.

After years of indoctrination

zeffabelli

Neyite wrote: »

You are taught in school to analyse, discuss and debate the meaning of poetry. The opposite of what you are taught to do with prayer.

If they are learning the Irish poems by rote then they may as well also be indoctrination of another kind.

I don't know because I didn't study them.

Tea 1000

eviltwin wrote: »

After years of indoctrination

Yes, great argument there... you do well with facts that you love so much, don't you?
I'm out of here now and let this thread march on in the predictable boards.ie fashion. Discussion forum my ass!

SpaceTime

Neyite wrote: »

Laundry for girls? You are not serious

Go into the rules for national schools and its opposite Rule 68, which I think is in the second PDF.

https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Rules-and-Programmes-for-Schools/

It says a lot for the Department that they can't even publish this document as a searchable HTML page.

Maybe they want to burry it in a bad scan so Google can't trawl and archive it??

Laundry is mentioned a couple of times as a subject.

The document is sexist and sectarian and written from the perspective of a 1950s, particularly conservative nun.

How, this passes as the basis for a modern education system is beyond me!

Honestly, if you're a journalist or you know any journalists please read the above documents as I really think they need to be made much more publically available to show just how backwards the system is!

SpaceTime

Here's where Rule 68 in reference to religion is

https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Rules-and-Programmes-for-Schools/rules_for_national_schools_7_13.pdf

And the laundry bit ...

One eyed Jack

harr wrote: »

Hi
Not looking to start a religious debate ,but what are people's views on teaching religion to kids so young .

Aye, that went well... :pac:

Our little lad is starting school in September and got his books today and the religion book is fairly full on...I was kind of shocked ...I don't mind teaching children about all religions and the history of religion .

If you think it's fairly full on now before your child has even started school, well, it's not going to get any less fairly full on as your child progresses through a Catholic ethos school.

We are Catholic but not practising ,the school he is attending is the only option for us and I don't want to Single him out by getting him to sit out religion .

You're leaving yourself in a bit of a bind there if you think the religious curriculum is fairly full on, and you don't want your child to sit out religion classes. You're going to have to make a decision one way or the other, and the sooner the better rather than leaving it on the long finger and hoping it'll work itself out. It's entirely possible your child won't be singled out and that there could be other children who will also not be participating in religion classes. This is something you should talk to the school principal and his teacher about at the start of the school year to see exactly what the story is and see how your child and your wishes can be best accommodated.

There is no mention of any other religion in his books at all...

Well no, because it's a religious curriculum in a Catholic ethos school.

Would like to hear people's view and the views from other parents who's children are in school...
Thanks

Nobody here can actually tell you how your child will fare in school, everyone's experiences will vary, but it doesn't surprise me that a thread like this on Boards will attract as much of the usual negative experiences as this one has done. People don't usually complain about their positive experiences.

I don't think there's much point in trying to persuade you that much of what has already been posted in this thread hasn't been my experience, nor the experience of my own child in a Catholic ethos school. Then again it wouldn't be because my wife and I have chosen to raise our child in the Catholic faith anyway. I think a bad experience of anything is going to leave a sour taste in anyone's mouth, and my wife who was always non-religious simply didn't participate in religious classes or activities in school, and there was no great difficulty with that. She isn't at all bitter or resentful or anything else about the education she received in primary and secondary catholic ethos schools.

It would actually have been easier for us to send our child to an ET school as the ET school is much closer to us than any of the RC ethos schools. Thing is though that it wasn't simply because we had decided already that our child would attend an RC ethos school (a decision we made before we chose to have any children), and also having done our research into all the schools in the area, we decided that the particular school we were sending him to would be better for his academic, social and personal development, as they had a better track record than all the other schools in the area.

It's working out well so far anyway, no nasty nuns or pedophile priests or yak about fire and brimstone, etc, and he learns all about other world religions and cultures from his classmates and from other children and adults in our community.

Oh, and if you're concerned about sex education and so on, you'll also be able to withdraw your child from the program when the time comes.

bajer101

I started a thread in the Atheism forum last year when my seven year old daughter moved to a Catholic school from an ET school. We were supposed to move house during the summer and the Catholic school was was the only real option. In the first week in her new school the indoctrination began. My daughter said that she didn't believe in God and was sent to the principals office. Following advice I got in the Atheism forum I learned that I was legally entitled to have her opt out. I met with the principal and voiced my concerns and said that I didn't want her to be taught religion. For all those who are advocating this as a simple solution - it is not. She was ostricised and bullied.

Luckily I was able to get her back into the ET school, but there are plenty of others who don't have that option. While there may be plenty of teachers out there who take a light handed approach to teaching religion my daughter's teacher certainly wasn't one and I am sure there are plenty more like her. Not only did she facilitate the bullying of my daughter she actively took part in it and threatened her that she would be thrown out of the school if she didn't believe in God.

Religion has no place in a State funded school in the 21st century. All State funded school should be completely secular, not even multi-denominational. Then the parents who want their kids to be indoctrinated in school should get together and set up their faith schools. This should be very easy to do as they have been advocating this as the simple solution to those of us who don't want our kids indoctrinated.

Neyite

SpaceTime wrote: »

Go into the rules for national schools and its opposite Rule 68, which I think is in the second PDF.

https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Rules-and-Programmes-for-Schools/

It says a lot for the Department that they can't even publish this document as a searchable HTML page.

Maybe they want to burry it in a bad scan so Google can't trawl and archive it??

Laundry is mentioned a couple of times as a subject.

The document is sexist and sectarian and written from the perspective of a 1950s, particularly conservative nun.

How, this passes as the basis for a modern education system is beyond me!

Honestly, if you're a journalist or you know any journalists please read the above documents as I really think they need to be made much more publically available to show just how backwards the system is!

Here's a draft to copy. I type fast. https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Rules-and-Programmes-for-Schools/rules_for_national_schools_7_13.pdf

Programme of Secular Instruction

70 (1) The minister may prescribe a programme of instruction in any subject of the curriculum for pupils of national schools. He may, from time to time alter a programme of instruction in any subject of the school's curriculum.

(2) The following are the subjects of national schools -
Irish, English, Mathematics, History, Geography, Needlework (girls) Music, Rural Science or Nature Study, Drawing, Physical Training, Cookery (girls) Laundry (girls) or Domestic Economy (girls), Manual Instruction (boys)

(3) The following are obligatory subjects -
Irish, English, Mathematics, History, Geography, Needlework (girls) Music

(4) The following are optional subjects
Drawing, Physical Training, Cookery (girls) Laundry (girls) or Domestic Economy (girls), Manual Instruction (boys)

I notice that Needlework is still compulsory for girls, but there is no corresponding gender specific subject for boys.

SpaceTime

You'd have to ask what exactly has the Department been doing since 1965?!

These rules are so out of date they're actually frightening. They look more like a historical document from the 19th century.

lazygal

What's 'manual instruction'?

PlainP

I set up an Educate together school in my locality with a few like-minded families who did not want their children indoctrinated into Catholicism.

It does not take years as someone else mentioned.

There were prefabs set up for the first couple of years but now the children are in their own building.

It was not difficult but there is a lot of work involved.

There is now a Secondary Educate together starting next year and my eldest will be the first year in it.

If you really do not agree or have issues with the religious aspect of your childrens education do something about it.

It can be done.

SpaceTime

bajer101 wrote: »

My daughter said that she didn't believe in God and was sent to the principals office. Following advice I got in the Atheism forum I learned that I was legally entitled to have her opt out. I met with the principal and voiced my concerns and said that I didn't want her to be taught religion. For all those who are advocating this as a simple solution - it is not. She was ostricised and bullied.

Luckily I was able to get her back into the ET school, but there are plenty of others who don't have that option. While there may be plenty of teachers out there who take a light handed approach to teaching religion my daughter's teacher certainly wasn't one and I am sure there are plenty more like her. Not only did she facilitate the bullying of my daughter she actively took part in it and threatened her that she would be thrown out of the school if she didn't believe in God.
.

I got called "the heathen down the back" by one teacher for years as a teenager. I also got told by a primary teacher that my parents were irresponsible and neglecting their duties to educate me about religion and that I wouldn't be let into secondary school and that they were a disgrace

She even implied that "someone should do something about it" which was like an open threat that I'd be taken away.

That's when I started to develop stomach aches and refused to go to school faking all sorts of ailments.

I eventually told my granny who absolutely lost the plot with the teacher and I ended up being taken out of the public school system entirely and went to a fee paying primary.

SpaceTime

lazygal wrote: »

What's 'manual instruction'?

Hard labour in an industrial school most likely.

Those subjects were used to punish from what I can see. A lot of Irish people or an older generation were basically put into what amount to religious work camps and then emigrated (especially to England) with no skills or qualifications, often ending up as housekeepers, labourers, homeless, drunk, depressed etc etc

There's a horrific legacy of that era in Ireland and it's largely visible in places like Manchester and Birmingham in the stories of the old generation of Irish exiles (not economic emigrants).

A lot of our poorest diaspora were the girls who got into trouble, the guys who got them into trouble, the kids who did something really minor and ended up in Artane, the kids of single parents or widowers, LGBT people, anyone who didn't fit into the model of perfect, fake, conservative, Catholic Ireland where nothing bad ever happened (visibly).

lazygal

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/no-more-needlework-for-girls-primary-school-rules-to-be-updated-643022.html

Apparently the rules were due to be updated. A year ago.

LegacyUser

Orion wrote: »

How exactly does one do that?

I dont attend mass, I dont attend religious ceremonies etc etc. I dont have to physically unsugn myself from anything to not participate. Granted there are a very very small minority of people who take exception to this or who may be worried by this sort of thing and feel that because they are still classed as Catholic, that they can never get away from it.

Like I said, maybe my name is down in Rome somwhere as being baptised, and confirmed 30 something years ago. Maybe it's impossible to my name off that list, but really I couldn't care less. It doesn't affect my life one little bit. I don't base every life decision on the fact that my name is on a list at the Vatican somewhere. That's my point. It doesn't affect the vast vast majority of Catholics in Ireland and thats the way it should be.

Yes religion shouldn't be taught in schools, but for now thats just the way it is. We currently have to just deal with that though I believe it will change, albeit slowly. Opt-out of religion class if its really affecting you, but my point is that I was opted/forced in for 14 or so years of religion classes and it hasn't affected me in any way.

zeffabelli wrote: »

The church has pretty much now confirmed its a cult by saying you can't leave.

Maybe my definition of a cult is actually slightly different, but to me a cult is an organisation that consistently FORCES a person to do what they say, when they say it. Yes I suppose I'm still officially a member of the Catholic church seeing as I cant leave, but they force me to do nothing. In fact I have no dealings with them. So to me that's not cult like.

Believe me when it came to deciding what school to send my kids to, we weighed up this whole argument and decided to send them to the National school because it is simply a better school. I have no issue whatsoever with them being taught religion, because when they are older they can and no doubt will choose for themselves.

Santa clause and the tooth fairy also exist for hundreds of millions of kids, but they also stop believing in them without any harmful side effects

bajer101

When the religious orders are taking a harder line than David Quinn, you know there is a serious problem.

"Labour TD Ruairi Quinn has said religious orders outside of Dublin have very little interest in the project to hand Catholic school premises over to non-Catholic education organisations."

"David Quinn said the sooner the church divests itself of X number of schools, the better.

He said there is a need for compromise, adding the current status quo is not in the church's interest because the pressure on it now, in certain parts of the country, is growing.

David Quinn said that by divesting schools, it would allow the remaining schools to be true to the Catholic identity. "


http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0806/719573-catholic-schools/

lazygal

SpaceTime wrote: »

Hard labour in an industrial school most likely.

Those subjects were used to punish from what I can see. A lot of Irish people or an older generation were basically put into what amount to religious work camps and then emigrated (especially to England) with no skills or qualifications, often ending up as housekeepers, labourers, homeless, drunk, depressed etc etc

There's a horrific legacy of that era in Ireland and it's largely visible in places like Manchester and Birmingham in the stories of the old generation of Irish exiles (not economic emigrants).

My mother was the first of her family to get free secondary education. Her parents had decided fees or not all the children would be educated, but she was the first they didn't have to pay fees for. The nuns in her school fought the changes tooth and nail when they were introduced, and claimed that 'farming girls' wouldn't want a secondary education anyway so it was a waste of their time teaching them things like French and maths. My mum has stories of how the new crop who weren't paying fees were made to feel like they were charity cases. It was a real case of snobbery, the nuns were losing their grip on education for the first time and they didn't like it one bit.

Its not one bit surprising so many people trot out the old 'if it wasn't for the churches we wouldn't have an education at all, so we should let them continue to run education even though we now pay almost all of the expenses' line. Even people my age believe this rubbish. How people think we should be eternally grateful for an education system, when we're legally obliged to send our children to school, is baffling.