Religion in junior infants

harr

Hi
Not looking to start a religious debate ,but what are people's views on teaching religion to kids so young .
Our little lad is starting school in September and got his books today and the religion book is fairly full on...I was kind of shocked ...I don't mind teaching children about all religions and the history of religion .
We are Catholic but not practising ,the school he is attending is the only option for us and I don't want to Single him out by getting him to sit out religion .
There is no mention of any other religion in his books at all...
Would like to hear people's view and the views from other parents who's children are in school...
Thanks

lazygal

It is Alive O? That's pretty heavy on the indoctrination alright. You can opt out of the indoctrination lessons if you're not practicing a religion.

harr

The book is grow in love,I don't want to single him out by making him sit it out,I don't mind them talking about God and love and stuff like that just the basics .
He is a smart little lad and always asking questions about how clouds are made and how trees grow and hundreds of questions a day and I always explain the best I can for him to understand ,but all this book teaches him is that God makes the clouds,grass,animals,trees and everything else,which to be honest is not my way of thinking....

mordeith

harr wrote: »

The book is grow in love,I don't want to single him out by making him sit it out,I don't mind them talking about God and love and stuff like that just the basics .
He is a smart little lad and always asking questions about how clouds are made and how trees grow and hundreds of questions a day and I always explain the best I can for him to understand ,but all this book teaches him is that God makes the clouds,grass,animals,trees and everything else,which to be honest is not my way of thinking....

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Our fella was the same with the questions and he just never bought into the God made everything bit. When he'd ask a question like 'how could Jesus have made all those loaves and fishes?' or whatever, we'd say "well what do you think?". His usual answer was like "I don't really think he could have done that", and we'd go "well, if that's what you think or believe that's fine". He is going into 2nd class in September and doesn't want to make his communion which is fine by us. We haven't actively discouraged him but we haven't said he needs to do it either

zeffabelli

mordeith wrote: »

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Our fella was the same with the questions and he just never bought into the God made everything bit. When he'd ask a question like 'how could Jesus have made all those loaves and fishes?' or whatever, we'd say "well what do you think?". His usual answer was like "I don't really think he could have done that", and we'd go "well, if that's what you think or believe that's fine". He is going into 2nd class in September and doesn't want to make his communion which is fine by us. We haven't actively discouraged him but we haven't said he needs to do it either

Well you can't get away from it.

I decided it was better on balance (and many would disagree with this) that letting him go along with it was better than allowing him to sit out in exclusion. I see the exclusionary tactic as an insidious bullying, micro aggressive ostracisation, anti-compassion, and intolerant of difference.

Having had a very good education behind me, which includes theological disciplines, I decided it was better that he learn it, know it, but I will appropriate and occupy that part of his education by counter educating him at home. My attitude is you don't have to like it, you don't have to believe it, but you do have to know it and to treat it as story, nothing more.

LegacyUser

Why don't you talk to the school?
The teacher doesn't always sit there reading verbatim out of the book......she may take a slightly different tack. And kids pick things up in the funniest of ways....Also there may be other kids in the class sitting it out, you wouldn't know.
You know when he gets to the stage of holy communion, you'll have to attend mass etc with him, so it might be good to start thinking now about what approach you'll take there - will he sit it out or not.
For my own thinking, I'm Catholic (probably not a very good one!) and have no objection to my kids learning the religion, but equally, have no objection to anyone else believing what they want to. I guess no matter what way you go, you're imposing your own beliefs on your kids - I figure there's no winning either way

Akrasia

My son just finished juniors this year and they had to do some 'sharing circle' as part of religion 'education' that he just refused to do because he thought it was stupid

We told his teacher that we're not catholic and he doesn't have to do any religious classes if he doesn't want to. We don't mind him learning songs or doing plays or any of that. We don't even mind him learning the prayers, but we don't want him to be examined on them or forced to participate in anything religious that he doesn't want to do.

On Ash Wednesday he got really upset when a teacher made him get the ash on his forehead when he didn't want it.

Its just a matter of talking to the teacher and hoping that she'll respect your and your child's wishes.

ash23

I find you can undo a lot of the indoctrination at home by talking and having them think for themselves. I've one child who went through catholic primary and it was a bit brainwashy but when she came home with "the world was created in 7 days" I explained the big bang. When Adam and Eve came up I explained evolution. She chose to make her Communion and confirmation but with no real meaning behind it other than not wanting to be left out. I also explained that the bible stories are similar to Greek mythology or Irish folklore but that some people choose to believe they are true and that's OK etc but she can make up her own mind when she's older blah blah.

She's going to secondary school now and we discussed what religion to put on her admission form and she settled on agnostic.

mordeith

zeffabelli wrote: »

Well you can't get away from it.

Agreed

I decided it was better on balance (and many would disagree with this) that letting him go along with it was better than allowing him to sit out in exclusion. I see the exclusionary tactic as an insidious bullying, micro aggressive ostracisation, anti-compassion, and intolerant of difference.

Well I'm not sure how allowing your child free choice is insidious bullying. Personally I see the 'going along with the crowd' attitude hypocritical and just reinforces the Catholic ethos in schools where, in reality, a lot of families have no real interest. There's no point in complaining about religion in schools unless some alternative course is chosen i.e. non participation

Cabaal

Akrasia wrote: »

On Ash Wednesday he got really upset when a teacher made him get the ash on his forehead when he didn't want it.

Its just a matter of talking to the teacher and hoping that she'll respect your and your child's wishes.

First off I'll give full disclosure here, I'm not religious and personally I think religion is better left to "Sunday schools", priests/mass and the parents as its not upto the government to pay for teachers at the tax payers expense to push any one specific religion.

However, if you opt in to the religious aspect of the school then really its rather silly to then start picking and choosing what aspects of the religion class your child takes part in.

You're either involved in it or not, if you don't like the subject then its actually better for everyone if you don't put your child into the situation.

To give a comparison, its like opting your child into an optional Art Class but you don't want your kid thought about modern art because you or your child doesn't like it (to be fair its not to everyone's taste). Your child is either involved in the class or not.

The more people that opt out of religion means that opting out will be seen as more normal and acceptable and eventually there can be a push to take the religious side of stuff out of the school environment where it currently takes up 10% of school time at primary level (that is equal to the amount of time spent on Maths and English!)

eviltwin

If only religious education was confined to religion class but in a Catholic school it's impossible to escape. Even if your child sits out there is still a religious slant to a lot of school activities, it's not something you can prevent your child picking up. My eldest went to a religious school and I found it hard going at times particularly around FHC and confirmation years. I had to do a lot of work at home around other faiths and science for balance but I still see a huge difference between her and her brother who is lucky enough to go to ET. I feel your pain OP because if you feel strongly about the issue it's difficult to accept your school won't support you. At this stage in his life it will be fairly innocent stuff but you might want to look ahead at the content of the course over the next few years and see how you feel about it.

lazygal

harr wrote: »

The book is grow in love,I don't want to single him out by making him sit it out,I don't mind them talking about God and love and stuff like that just the basics .
He is a smart little lad and always asking questions about how clouds are made and how trees grow and hundreds of questions a day and I always explain the best I can for him to understand ,but all this book teaches him is that God makes the clouds,grass,animals,trees and everything else,which to be honest is not my way of thinking....

If it's not..your way of thinking opt him out. Send in colouring books and different material and tell the teacher he's not doing indoctrination.
I do find a lot of teachers claim the indoctrination is not really religious and mainly.about being friends and nice to people so.you might need to have the book to hand to reinforce why you're opting him out of indoctrination.

harr

Thanks for all your replies ,it has somewhat put my mind at ease.....the reason I am unwilling to let him sit out is that I don't want him singled out..it is a country school and I can see him being the only one in his class that would have to sit it out...
I agree with letting him ask about it at home and us saying that they are story's that some people believe in and some don't and different people believe in different things.
I spoke to a neighbour this morning who's son has finished junior infants and he was asked every Monday did he go to mass on Sunday and was asked what prayers his mammy and daddy say at home and his class were even told that God won't be happy with mammy or daddy if that don't bring him to mass every week...now I see that as a step to far.....

hairyslug

This has us kinda stuck, our eldest will be going into 1st class, I'm an atheist and don't see the need for religious classes in school, as was said before, leave it to Sunday schools and mass. But my daughter really wants to do it, she is already looking forward to her 1st communion, for no other reason that to wear a fancy dress. We have the option of pulling her out of these classes but she will be the only one in her class not doing it and she doesn't want to be left out

eviltwin

harr wrote: »

Thanks for all your replies ,it has somewhat put my mind at ease.....the reason I am unwilling to let him sit out is that I don't want him singled out..it is a country school and I can see him being the only one in his class that would have to sit it out...
I agree with letting him ask about it at home and us saying that they are story's that some people believe in and some don't and different people believe in different things.
I spoke to a neighbour this morning who's son has finished junior infants and he was asked every Monday did he go to mass on Sunday and was asked what prayers his mammy and daddy say at home and his class were even told that God won't be happy with mammy or daddy if that don't bring him to mass every week...now I see that as a step to far.....

Is that the same school ?

Teyla Emmagan

I honestly think it's hilarious that people send their kid to Catholic school and then complain when their kid gets taught the tenants of Catholicism. Why would you even think your kid would be taught about "all religions"?! They will be taught Catholic teachings, duh. I know we live in an increasingly secular society but if you send your kid to a religious school this is what you get. They're not going to loosen it up just because that's what you'd like. If you don't want them taught religion then ask for them to be taken out of the classes. Why let them be taught something at school if you're only going to contradict it at home? That's a waste of the teacher's effort. Get off the fence and just tell the school you don't want your child in those classes.

zeffabelli

eviltwin wrote: »

If only religious education was confined to religion class but in a Catholic school it's impossible to escape. Even if your child sits out there is still a religious slant to a lot of school activities, it's not something you can prevent your child picking up. My eldest went to a religious school and I found it hard going at times particularly around FHC and confirmation years. I had to do a lot of work at home around other faiths and science for balance but I still see a huge difference between her and her brother who is lucky enough to go to ET. I feel your pain OP because if you feel strongly about the issue it's difficult to accept your school won't support you. At this stage in his life it will be fairly innocent stuff but you might want to look ahead at the content of the course over the next few years and see how you feel about it.

The problem I have with ET is when I visited one there were posters all over the walls about Ramadan.

What dawned on me is that I don't even respect my own religion there is no way I can respect all these other crack pot ones.

And yet because of my background raised Catholic I can disparage all the ideological nonsense without the political blackmail ....whereas telling my boy Islam is also a slavery crock of **** will get me marks in my copy book.

So in a roundabout way the catholic school works better for my strategy.

zeffabelli

hairyslug wrote: »

This has us kinda stuck, our eldest will be going into 1st class, I'm an atheist and don't see the need for religious classes in school, as was said before, leave it to Sunday schools and mass. But my daughter really wants to do it, she is already looking forward to her 1st communion, for no other reason that to wear a fancy dress. We have the option of pulling her out of these classes but she will be the only one in her class not doing it and she doesn't want to be left out

Some won't babysit for you. My boys school told me I'd have to come and get him. It's a weird set up though because they do prayers in the morning after attendance and then would not release a consistent schedule so you could know when to pick them up....basically made it impossible....say your prayers or get marked absent and then mom or dad has to pick you up and drop you off at random times they won't release to you.

Cabaal

zeffabelli wrote: »

The problem I have with ET is when I visited one there were posters all over the walls about Ramadan.

But ET can't opt for non-religon.
A school must be a specific faith or it must be multi faith as required by department of education. A school can not have no faith, its a crazy system.

As ET are multi faith that means that for example during Ramadan they might explain Ramadan to kids as part of some of the class time, but during periods for other faiths for example Christmas they might explain the birth of Jesus and so on.

The ET model is still better then Catholic ethos because atleast it covers a number of faiths instead of claiming that one religion/god is the one true faith and all others are wrong or deluded.

looksee

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I honestly think it's hilarious that people send their kid to Catholic school and then complain when their kid gets taught the tenants of Catholicism. Why would you even think your kid would be taught about "all religions"?! They will be taught Catholic teachings, duh. I know we live in an increasingly secular society but if you send your kid to a religious school this is what you get. They're not going to loosen it up just because that's what you'd like. If you don't want them taught religion then ask for them to be taken out of the classes. Why let them be taught something at school if you're only going to contradict it at home? That's a waste of the teacher's effort. Get off the fence and just tell the school you don't want your child in those classes.

This would be a great theory if there were a choice about going to a Catholic school. The alternative in many places is to go to the local 'Catholic' school, where all their friends go and they are home in 10 minutes, or to be put on a bus or be driven maybe 10 miles to a town to find a secular school. Keep the schools neutral and have the local church put on out-of-school classes for religious education of whatever flavour parents prefer.

harr

eviltwin wrote: »

Is that the same school ?

Yes it's the same school

eviltwin

zeffabelli wrote: »

The problem I have with ET is when I visited one there were posters all over the walls about Ramadan.

What dawned on me is that I don't even respect my own religion there is no way I can respect all these other crack pot ones.

And yet because of my background raised Catholic I can disparage all the ideological nonsense without the political blackmail ....whereas telling my boy Islam is also a slavery crock of **** will get me marks in my copy book.

So in a roundabout way the catholic school works better for my strategy.

I don't get your point. Your Catholic school will have posters up about feast days, why is the one religion monopoly okay? Our school will mention Ramadan etc, I don't mind because I think it's important kids know about other faiths and cultures. It's just learning about the lives of the kids, its not indoctrinating the children which is what happens in a Catholic school

lazygal

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

I honestly think it's hilarious that people send their kid to Catholic school and then complain when their kid gets taught the tenants of Catholicism. Why would you even think your kid would be taught about "all religions"?! They will be taught Catholic teachings, duh. I know we live in an increasingly secular society but if you send your kid to a religious school this is what you get. They're not going to loosen it up just because that's what you'd like. If you don't want them taught religion then ask for them to be taken out of the classes. Why let them be taught something at school if you're only going to contradict it at home? That's a waste of the teacher's effort. Get off the fence and just tell the school you don't want your child in those classes.

I think its hilarious that in so many parts of the country there's no choice but to send your child to a religious school.

Actually, its not hilarious in the slightest. But it is hilarious that people who comment on sending children to a school in an area with no other school options available find it hilarious that people dare to complain about indoctrination.

Cabaal

harr wrote: »

Yes it's the same school

You can very much expect the same then,

lazygal

looksee wrote: »

This would be a great theory if there were a choice about going to a Catholic school. The alternative in many places is to go to the local 'Catholic' school, where all their friends go and they are home in 10 minutes, or to be put on a bus or be driven maybe 10 miles to a town to find a secular school. Keep the schools neutral and have the local church put on out-of-school classes for religious education of whatever flavour parents prefer.

There are no secular schools in Ireland that are publicly funded. All must abide by Rule 68 which is that religious instruction is the most important subject in primary school.

Cabaal

lazygal wrote: »

Actually, its not hilarious in the slightest. But it is hilarious that people who comment on sending children to a school in an area with no other school options available find it hilarious that people dare to complain about indoctrination.

Its certainly not hilarious,
Here's a department of education map showing multi domination schools (ET) versus catholic ethos schools:





Only a fool thinks parents have a real choice of a none catholic ethos schools in this country, If you live in certain parts of the country you could expect a 1-2hour drive to get to the nearest ET school.

harr

looksee wrote: »

This would be a great theory if there were a choice about going to a Catholic school. The alternative in many places is to go to the local 'Catholic' school, where all their friends go and they are home in 10 minutes, or to be put on a bus or be driven maybe 10 miles to a town to find a secular school. Keep the schools neutral and have the local church put on out-of-school classes for religious education of whatever flavour parents prefer.

Unfortunately We don't have the option but to send him to a catholic school ,as you said all his friends locally are going to this school and the nearest ET school is 20 miles or more away,and I agree with keeping schools neutral and separate from the church.

zeffabelli

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't get your point. Your Catholic school will have posters up about feast days, why is the one religion monopoly okay? Our school will mention Ramadan etc, I don't mind because I think it's important kids know about other faiths and cultures. It's just learning about the lives of the kids, its not indoctrinating the children which is what happens in a Catholic school

Because I can freely criticise and disparage my own "official" religion but I can't say Ramadan is a crock of ****. I can say no the story of the resurrection is a myth based on the story of the Phoenix, appropriated by Jesus who was a deluded narcissist exploited by governments to control the behaviour of populations and get money out of them.

If I say that about Mohammad the politically correct police will give me a spanking.

eviltwin

zeffabelli wrote: »

Because I can freely criticise and disparage my own "official" religion but I can't say Ramadan is a crock of ****. I can say no the story of the resurrection is a myth based on the story of the Phoenix, appropriated by Jesus who was a deluded narcissist exploited by governments to control the behaviour of populations and get money out of them.

If I say that about Mohammad the politically correct police will give me a spanking.

Nothing stopping you from saying any of that. You can tell your kids whatever you want.

ash23

I had a choice of four nearby primary schools, all catholic. If I wanted an ET school I'd have had to travel and hour at least. Unfortunately that is the reality for many Irish parents.
I've no problem with a prayer here and there, a trip to mass etc. But the over the top stuff (IMO) is where I start to get uncomfortable.
By all means teach my child to love and accept others but don't tell her she is going to hell if she is gay or I'm bad in the eyes of god for having her outside of wedlock blah de blah

Cabaal

zeffabelli wrote: »

Because I can freely criticise and disparage my own "official" religion but I can't say Ramadan is a crock of ****. I can say no the story of the resurrection is a myth based on the story of the Phoenix, appropriated by Jesus who was a deluded narcissist exploited by governments to control the behaviour of populations and get money out of them.

If I say that about Mohammad the politically correct police will give me a spanking.

I think you'll find that if your child says the above in religion class in a catholic ethos school then the teacher will likely have words with you, tell the child not to speak anymore, send them to the principals office etc.

I know I was kicked out of religion class for saying I didn't believe in god, jesus, the bible is the word of god. I went to a catholic ethos school, so I'm not so sure that catholic schools are as accepting as you think they are.

They can of course say they don't believe in god, bible, jesus in a ET school, manner others won't believe either. Same as in a ET school they can say they don't believe in Mohammad...I'm sure they won't be the only one who doesn't to be fair.

No doubt however that the ET school like any school or workplace would require that you use respectful language to put this message across. Thats perfectly reasonable.