Religion in junior infants

lazygal

ash23 wrote: »

You actually can. As per my first post. I had no problem with my child being in the class and listening to the religious bits and talking about it at home. And most of it I let slide.

But when the religious teaching started to contradict science and my own personal morals, I weighed in and taught my daughter that those particular teachings of the church were plain and outright wrong.
I also taught her to put it across in a respectful manner and we never had any problems but if any teacher had told her god wouldn't be happy with her for not going to mass I'd have made a complaint. I don't believe in instilling religious fear into children and thankfully, the school my daughter went to didn't take that approach so there was no issue. But I'd have actually rounded up a posse of parents if that kind of hell and eternal damnation was what was actually being taught. I remember it from my own primary school days and it's terrifying for children.

Did you baptise her Catholic? Did she make communion and confirmation?

Orion

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

I definitely won't be reading the papers you retrieved for me and I apologise for putting you to the trouble of searching for them for me.

You really should regardless. The outcome of the current debate with AI, government advisors and the Archbishop of Dublin weighing in will impact on your childrens' education when the time comes. Best to be informed and make a contribution now than complain later when all schools are multi-ethos and you can't find a "free" catholic school to go to

harr

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Firstly I am a primary school teacher.
Having taught junior infants in the past, it wasn't related much at all to God and Catholicim and was based more on being a good friend, and feelings. I haven't seen the new Grow in Love book but perhaps it is different.

Secondly if parents want their children to attend EDUCATE TOGETHER schools, how many of ye are actively doing something about this? I understand it takes a long time but you've got to start somewhere!

Thirdly I work in a Catholic ethos school. I don't spend the recommended time on religion per week. Some weeks it may not be done at all. I pick and choose what I want to do. I taught 6th class this year and have never made any reference to gays going to hell. Or living with a partner before marriage. Or sex before marriage. Maybe it depends on the age of the teacher but considering many people, teachers included, break these "rules" it is something I do not force down any of my students throats. In fact religion in general is never forced upon them, although admittedly in the Sacrament years there is more of an emphasis than usual.

I had a Muslim boy in my class this year and he completed other work while we did religion. I found a Qu'ran in a book shop and gave it to him. Said he could read it during religion if he liked. I asked him questions about his own religion and traditions and enjoyed hearing about them and he enjoyed sharing with the class. Most years I have had a sacrament class I have had students who opt out. I've never had any issues.

Finally I don't particularly wish to teach Catholicism in school. It's not a subject to be taught in my opinion. I do enjoy teaching a bit about various faiths though but this could be done in half an hour per week, instead of the 2.5 hours currently allocated. (As mentioned previously this never happens in my classroom and many teachers I know! I spend majority of time on English maths and irish!)

If school was to finish half hour earlier and then religious instruction commence, I wonder how many would attend? School would essentially finish at the same time but how many would stay for that half hour???

Edited to add I take offence to the above comment about brainwashing. What is wrong with reciting prayers or songs? I think many people are considering their own schooling when religion had a different role in schools and are allowing their attitudes and experiences to affect what actually happens in many modern schools.

Great to hear from a teacher and I am hoping his teacher will have the same attitude as you do,can I ask if most of your colleagues would have the same outlook as yourself and are teachers checked to make sure they do the 2.5 hours a week would the children be quizzed by an inspector on there religious knowledge?

Orion

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

And yes it is bad parenting to send your child to a place where you think will not be good for them just cause it's s bit handier for you in the morning.

Read my other post on this - some people have no choice whatsoever. It's not a matter of convenience when the only schools available are Catholic which is the case for the majority of areas in the country.

pwurple

I'm catholic, the children are baptised, but the best local school for us is the local protestant one. We chose on educational merit rather than faith. Their standard of maths outweighs any other things they have on the curriculum tbh. Couldn't give a toss about the content of the stories or hymns. We would have been ok with any religion. The local chapel is also nearby, and they go there too for school easter events etc. I've been given a handbook on them so I know what's going on, it's got the words to the hymns, dates and events. We'll do the bake sale and other church supporting activities as they come up.

I'm pretty happy with that, as it is part of our local community anyway. will see how it goes over the years, but I don't forsee any issues. We go to mass as well anyway (around once a month, plus occasions), have children's bibles that we sometimes read bedtime stories from. I want them to have an idea what's going on with all the Holy Mary statues all around the countryside, and what those mean to people. We live in old convent grounds, there are some very old grottos in our garden. I don't want them to be separated from their heritage or peers. (Or restrict their ability to swear like a catholic! Got to be able to add a few saints into the expletives!) Christianity does intertwine so much with our history, literature, architecture, politics, art and language, I think it's difficult to even get it expunged from education without losing something valuable to ourselves.

I reckon it's harder for a child to make any kind of faith decision when they don't know anything about it. I wouldn't want them hitting any kind of religious awakening in their teens, where I've been hiding this whole other world from them through exclusion. That particular zealotic convert rebellion I could do without.


And I really don't think they are doing any "gays are going to hell" lectures to 4 year olds even in catholic schools.... I certainly never remember anything of the sort in school.

PearlJ

lazygal wrote: »

There are few creepier sights for me than seeing five year olds recite some of the prayers in junior infant religion books. It is brainwashing, and there is a very good reason why many religions want to encourage recitation of prayers and songs of the faith by children. Looking back on my own schooling the indoctrination programme did a great job of encouraging recitation to enforce indoctrination. Sounds like that hasn't changed.

Couldn't agree more.

lazygal

pwurple wrote: »

I reckon it's harder for a child to make any kind of faith decision when they don't know anything about it. I wouldn't want them hitting any kind of religious awakening in their teens, where I've been hiding this whole other world from them through exclusion. That particular zealotic convert rebellion I could do without.

All children attending schools in Ireland are educated about religion. Some also have indoctrination. It's not like children can go through the system completely unaware of religion in state funded schools in Ireland.

eviltwin

pwurple wrote: »

I'm catholic, the children are baptised, but the best local school for us is the local protestant one. We chose on educational merit rather than faith. Their standard of maths outweighs any other things they have on the curriculum tbh. Couldn't give a toss about the content of the stories or hymns. We would have been ok with any religion. The local chapel is also nearby, and they go there too for school easter events etc. I've been given a handbook on them so I know what's going on, it's got the words to the hymns, dates and events. We'll do the bake sale and other church supporting activities as they come up.

I'm pretty happy with that, as it is part of our local community anyway. will see how it goes over the years, but I don't forsee any issues. We go to mass as well anyway (around once a month, plus occasions), have children's bibles that we sometimes read bedtime stories from. I want them to have an idea what's going on with all the Holy Mary statues all around the countryside, and what those mean to people. We live in old convent grounds, there are some very old grottos in our garden. I don't want them to be separated from their heritage or peers. (Or restrict their ability to swear like a catholic! Got to be able to add a few saints into the expletives!) Christianity does intertwine so much with our history, literature, architecture, politics, art and language, I think it's difficult to even get it expunged from education without losing something valuable to ourselves.

I reckon it's harder for a child to make any kind of faith decision when they don't know anything about it. I wouldn't want them hitting any kind of religious awakening in their teens, where I've been hiding this whole other world from them through exclusion. That particular zealotic convert rebellion I could do without.


And I really don't think they are doing any "gays are going to hell" lectures to 4 year olds even in catholic schools.... I certainly never remember anything of the sort in school.

They might not be saying it to 4 yr olds but they are saying it to older children as my child experienced in her Catholic school in her teens. To make it worse my child is gay so can you imagine what that was like for her? Can you imagine what that is like for us her parents knowing we had no choice but to send her to that school? All the other stuff you mention about heritage and culture can be taught in any school.

ash23

lazygal wrote: »

Did you baptise her Catholic? Did she make communion and confirmation?

I mentioned already that I gave her the choice at the time of communion and confirmation. I was barely 20 when she was born and hadn't yet decided at that time that the Catholic faith was not for me or my family. I made that decision in my mid 20s. I'm also an hour each way from an ET school, a single parent and I have a full time job so it's the local school or me being on welfare so I can bring her to the ET school

Anything else you'd like to know?

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

They might not be saying it to 4 yr olds but they are saying it to older children as my child experienced in her Catholic school in her teens. To make it worse my child is gay so can you imagine what that was like for her? Can you imagine what that is like for us her parents knowing we had no choice but to send her to that school? All the other stuff you mention about heritage and culture can be taught in any school.

There's also the outsourcing of sex ed to Pure in Heart, run by Ben Conroy, Breda O'Brien's son, in many schools. Modesty for girls and condoms not working and sundry other nonsense taught as fact.

18MonthsaSlave

I remember being in high infants and a teacher, Mrs Daly, slapped me across my face because I wasn't holding my hands together correctly while praying.
I wasn't misbehaving.
Religious indoctrination is fabulous

eviltimeban

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

I know I had viewed out but when I read a stupid post like this I have to reply.
-snip-

That's exactly what a troll would say.

lazygal

zeffabelli wrote: »

My 8 year old has already debated the golden rule with me. I am equipped to have this debate.

His teachers are not equipped to discuss axioms, moral frameworks, inductive and deductive reasoning, practical and theoretical logic and cultural assumptions. These are essential to morals and ethics.

They just don't know what to do when kids bring this stuff up.

Really, all teachers, in all schools, who are all women with BAs?

SpaceTime

"Welcome to school in Ireland, where the local time is 9:00am on Sept 1 in the Year of Our Lord 1815.

Your first science class will begin in 8 years, now before we begin a 14 year language course at the end of which, most of you will still be unable to even order a Cup of coffee in Irish, let us pray.

This afternoons sport will consist of running around the yard without any facilities and then we'll be paying a trip to the library by imagining really hard that we have one."

There's a massive issue here with splitting schools into smaller and smaller and smaller units based on religious values, snobbery, gender and multiple sponsors.

That means more principals, more overheads, more building maintenance and lack of basic facilities. It probably even pulls money out of providing schools in rural areas because umpteen flavours of school have to be provided in urban areas.

It's ridiculous that parents and children and teachers are having to put up with this mess in what claims to be a modern, 21st century Western European democracy.

Orion

eviltimeban wrote: »

That's exactly what a troll would say.

Enough

pwurple

eviltwin wrote: »

They might not be saying it to 4 yr olds but they are saying it to older children as my child experienced in her Catholic school in her teens. To make it worse my child is gay so can you imagine what that was like for her?

Did you go to school here yourself? I don't remember that kind of thing at all, and there were gay people in my class too. It literally never came up.

Not saying it didn't happen your daughter, you get poor teachers anywhere, in every subject. My brothers were all moved from a school because the language teacher was brutal.

Can you imagine what that is like for us her parents knowing we had no choice but to send her to that school?

That's awful. Why had you no choice? We have free movement here.

eviltwin

pwurple wrote: »

Did you go to school here yourself? I don't remember that kind of thing at all, and there were gay people in my class too. It literally never came up.

Not saying it didn't happen your daughter, you get poor teachers anywhere, in every subject. My brothers were all moved from a school because the language teacher was brutal.



That's awful. Why had you no choice? We have free movement here.

I did go to school here but a long time ago. Groups like Pure in Heart didn't exist. They have sprung up as a reaction to a more liberal country and like it or not there is a chance your school may invite them in. They don't even need parental permission.

What choice did I have? ET didn't exist when my daughter started school, there were no ET secondary schools at that time, my choice was Catholic school A vs Catholic school B. Not much of a choice.

lazygal

eviltwin wrote: »

I did go to school here but a long time ago. Groups like Pure in Heart didn't exist. They have sprung up as a reaction to a more liberal country and like it or not there is a chance your school may invite them in. They don't even need parental permission.

What choice did I have? ET didn't exist when my daughter started school, there were no ET secondary schools at that time, my choice was Catholic school A vs Catholic school B. Not much of a choice.

I think pwurple will pursue the old 'why didn't you set up your own school/we wouldn't have schools but for the churches/you can't be part of the community without a light washing of religion' line of thought. All points that have been addressed already in the thread.

realdanbreen

harr wrote: »

Hi
Not looking to start a religious debate ,but what are people's views on teaching religion to kids so young .
Our little lad is starting school in September and got his books today and the religion book is fairly full on...I was kind of shocked ...I don't mind teaching children about all religions and the history of religion .
We are Catholic but not practising ,the school he is attending is the only option for us and I don't want to Single him out by getting him to sit out religion .
There is no mention of any other religion in his books at all...
Would like to hear people's view and the views from other parents who's children are in school...
Thanks

It's pretty simple really and its also surprising that you would need 'advice' on boards on how to deal with it. If you are as you suggest a person who does'nt believe in God then just explain that to your child. I'm sure your explanations will outweigh any 'catholic indoctrination' that you may be afraid of.

zeffabelli

I went to catholic school and we didn't have any gays are going to hell stuff. Feds half the priests were gay.

They called Mary the so called Virgin.

I come from a very strong tradition of cherry picking. Plan to keep it that way.

And as a parent I reserve the right to hipocracies. See the lying to your kids thread for other parents reserving the same right.

Breadwoman

Hi, you said you are a catholic, even though you are not practising, you said you don't believe that god made clouds or trees or animals, so who made them? catholic's believe that God made them so i don't think you are catholic or even believe in God, i don't believe in most of the teachings of the catholic church, i believe in a relationship with Jesus Christ, i think the fact that the school your child goes to doesn't do much or anything on other faiths is good, you don't want to get a young kid all mixed up, if they think there is many Gods, they will get confused, and they might give up, there is only 1 god, maybe give your child a children's bible and see what god does. here's my story, I was baptised as a catholic, then i came disillusioned with the catholic church, but i love the lord, i don't agree with the teaching of the catholic church. The only way to heaven is by the blood of Jesus, you have to believe that Jesus died for your sins, and get baptised when you are old enough to understand this, so baptising a baby is pointless because you need to make the decision to follow Christ yourself, i read the bible now everyday, in the catholic church they don't even tell people they should do this, i do not worship or pray to Mary or any saints because they're not special/divine and some people make them as an idol, Jesus said you should not have any other gods before me,"You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”, Jesus said i am the way, the truth and the life,no one comes to the father expect through me, the catholic church has deceived people, told them wrong teaching and did terrible things that are not godly, i am Pentecostal, i got baptised again in water and i recieved the holy spirit, as on the day of Pentecost, they are lots of gifts of the holy spirit, God is good, i know there is a lot of bad things going on in the world, but it says in the bible, the devil is the god of this world. and free choice has caused major problems in the world. To the unbelievers, it says this, Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. Corinthians 2, 4.4. God is awesome, the human body is so wonderfully made that it can not be an accident, The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." psalm 14.1

God Bless You

SpaceTime

I didn't go to school *that* long ago either and I had to put up with being quizzed about the gospel every Monday to check if I had been to mass!

My family didn't go to mass and I started to refuse to go to school, making up illnesses every Monday because I knew I was going to get hassle about mass.

I even went to mass by myself at age 10 and brought a notebook so I could write down the gospel reference, causing a massive search at home because I'd gone missing in suburban Dublin.

I also got suspended for arguing with a religion teacher about a topic she was teaching in secondary school.

Most Irish teachers are laid back and secular in outlook but there's always one or two in a particular school who see their mission as evangelisation. All it takes is a random crossing of timetables or class assignments and life is misery for anyone who disagrees with them.

I also remember a scenario in primary school where the whole class was made sing endless hymns. It got the point one day that we sang so much several children were crying because they didn't want to sing any more!!

eviltimeban

Breadwoman wrote: »

Hi, you said you are a catholic, even though you are not practising, you said you don't believe that god made clouds or trees or animals, so who made

-snip all the crazy -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLM711kArrQ

PearlJ

Breadwoman wrote: »

Hi, you said you are a catholic, even though you are not practising, you said you don't believe that god made clouds or trees or animals, so who made them? ]

Are you for real?

harr

Breadwoman wrote: »

Hi, you said you are a catholic, even though you are not practising, you said you don't believe that god made clouds or trees or animals, so who made them? catholic's believe that God made them so i don't think you are catholic or even believe in God, i don't believe in most of the teachings of the catholic church, i believe in a relationship with Jesus Christ, i think the fact that the school your child goes to doesn't do much or anything on other faiths is good, you don't want to get a young kid all mixed up, if they think there is many Gods, they will get confused, and they might give up, there is only 1 god, maybe give your child a children's bible and see what god does. here's my story, I was baptised as a catholic, then i came disillusioned with the catholic church, but i love the lord, i don't agree with the teaching of the catholic church. The only way to heaven is by the blood of Jesus, you have to believe that Jesus died for your sins, and get baptised when you are old enough to understand this, so baptising a baby is pointless because you need to make the decision to follow Christ yourself, i read the bible now everyday, in the catholic church they don't even tell people they should do this, i do not worship or pray to Mary or any saints because they're not special/divine and some people make them as an idol, Jesus said you should not have any other gods before me,"You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”, Jesus said i am the way, the truth and the life,no one comes to the father expect through me, the catholic church has deceived people, told them wrong teaching and did terrible things that are not godly, i am Pentecostal, i got baptised again in water and i recieved the holy spirit, as on the day of Pentecost, they are lots of gifts of the holy spirit, God is good, i know there is a lot of bad things going on in the world, but it says in the bible, the devil is the god of this world. and free choice has caused major problems in the world. To the unbelievers, it says this, Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. Corinthians 2, 4.4. God is awesome, the human body is so wonderfully made that it can not be an accident, The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." psalm 14.1

God Bless You

To be honest ,I don't even want to try to debate with you because I think it would be a waste of my time...:rolleyes:

lazygal

harr wrote: »

To be honest ,I don't even want to try to debate with you because I think it would be a waste of my time...:rolleyes:

I guess God doesn't believe in paragraphs either.

eviltwin

Breadwoman wrote: »

Hi, you said you are a catholic, even though you are not practising, you said you don't believe that god made clouds or trees or animals, so who made them? catholic's believe that God made them so i don't think you are catholic or even believe in God, i don't believe in most of the teachings of the catholic church, i believe in a relationship with Jesus Christ, i think the fact that the school your child goes to doesn't do much or anything on other faiths is good, you don't want to get a young kid all mixed up, if they think there is many Gods, they will get confused, and they might give up, there is only 1 god, maybe give your child a children's bible and see what god does. here's my story, I was baptised as a catholic, then i came disillusioned with the catholic church, but i love the lord, i don't agree with the teaching of the catholic church. The only way to heaven is by the blood of Jesus, you have to believe that Jesus died for your sins, and get baptised when you are old enough to understand this, so baptising a baby is pointless because you need to make the decision to follow Christ yourself, i read the bible now everyday, in the catholic church they don't even tell people they should do this, i do not worship or pray to Mary or any saints because they're not special/divine and some people make them as an idol, Jesus said you should not have any other gods before me,"You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”, Jesus said i am the way, the truth and the life,no one comes to the father expect through me, the catholic church has deceived people, told them wrong teaching and did terrible things that are not godly, i am Pentecostal, i got baptised again in water and i recieved the holy spirit, as on the day of Pentecost, they are lots of gifts of the holy spirit, God is good, i know there is a lot of bad things going on in the world, but it says in the bible, the devil is the god of this world. and free choice has caused major problems in the world. To the unbelievers, it says this, Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. Corinthians 2, 4.4. God is awesome, the human body is so wonderfully made that it can not be an accident, The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." psalm 14.1

God Bless You

This is exactly the kind of rubbish I want to protect my children from

ash23

SpaceTime wrote: »

I didn't go to school *that* long ago either and I had to put up with being quizzed about the gospel every Monday to check if I had been to mass!.......

Similar here and it's only a decade ago or so since I finished school. I remember sleeping with rosary beads and being terrified I was going to die and go to hell over whatever misdemeanor I'd committed that day at the tender age of 7. I remember the KitKat ad with the devil and angel reducing my sister to tears every time it came on because she was terrified of hell.

I was told if we didn't go to mass every Sunday in May we would definitely go to hell because it was the month of Mary etc etc.

It's no wonder most parents are wary of religious education in school when most of us are aware we were totally brainwashed ourselves. I will say, in my daughters school it was fine and hopefully that is a sign that things have changed, but I was very very careful to go through her religion homework and copies and talk to her about what was being said in class because I was worried she would have the same kind of stuff forced on her and she did to an extent as in first or second class they were taught about hell and it took a few weeks of reassurance from me that hell doesn't exist.

realdanbreen

harr wrote: »

To be honest ,I don't even want to try to debate with you because I think it would be a waste of my time...:rolleyes:

But there isn't much to debate is there?
You say you are a non believer, you are sending your child to a catholic school and you seem surprised that the child will have a religios class where catholicism will be taught? If that bothers you then just explain your own beliefs to the child, its really simple, its what parents do.

zeffabelli

ash23 wrote: »

Similar here and it's only a decade ago or so since I finished school. I remember sleeping with rosary beads and being terrified I was going to die and go to hell over whatever misdemeanor I'd committed that day at the tender age of 7. I remember the KitKat ad with the devil and angel reducing my sister to tears every time it came on because she was terrified of hell.

I was told if we didn't go to mass every Sunday in May we would definitely go to hell because it was the month of Mary etc etc.

It's no wonder most parents are wary of religious education in school when most of us are aware we were totally brainwashed ourselves. I will say, in my daughters school it was fine and hopefully that is a sign that things have changed, but I was very very careful to go through her religion homework and copies and talk to her about what was being said in class because I was worried she would have the same kind of stuff forced on her and she did to an extent as in first or second class they were taught about hell and it took a few weeks of reassurance from me that hell doesn't exist.

Ha ha.

I remember before the birds and the bees talk about the mysterious pregnancy and at 7 worried how much trouble Id get in.

However copped very early that confession was a way for the priest to know all the local gossip do I told a pack of lies in confession, it was fun.

Teaching 7 year olds they were born bad is abusive imo.