Religion in junior infants

eviltwin

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Sounds like hippy talk to me. I'm sure as children grow older they will make up their own minds anyhow. If they need to be told to accept other people from other cultures in school then their parents have failed at parenting.

What's hippy about wanting your kids to mix with other cultures and faiths. What's hippy about not wanting them told that one religion is the true religion. What's hippy about wanting your kids school to reflect the mix of cultures you live with. What kind of people do you think are sending their kids to ET's in the first place?

eviltwin

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

But the census is the only official way of knowing and definitely the most accurate as the sample size is huge (greater than 90%of the population) as opposed to your sample size of... 1(your husband).

As I say look at mass attendance. Do you really believe that 80% of Irish Catholics go to mass?

zeffabelli

Orion wrote: »

ET have a Moral and Ethical Curriculum where they teach about all world religions. It's not religious instruction - it's religious education. This is far preferable to a single religion indoctrination. Like it or not religion is part of world culture - better to learn the differences and similarities than to live in ignorance of them.

Of course it would be better if religion was taken out of primary schools altogether and let parents/churches do it outside of school hours.

Yes I am aware of that and having had theology as part of my own education, I'd prefer to take control of that myself as I have no idea what qualifications if any, the teachers have in world theologies/philosophy or their historical contexts.

Morals and ethics should be taught by philosophers, not by women who have only BA s in education.

Kids are too young for this, don't have the critical faculties of interpretation.

lazygal

myopinion2015 wrote: »

Just my opinion but parents DO have a choice,

if there are a group of parents who get together they CAN start a new school of their choosing,

you have 5 years (5 and a half if you include pregnancy) to find the right school for your child, if you know there is no school in the area to your satisfaction find others in the area willing to set up a new school,

it happened here in with our local Gaelscoil where parents wanted a Gaelscoil and the department wouldn't give them one (other suitable school's in the area excuse) they got no funding either, so the parents got together made a committee with a group of teachers who were also interested in teaching in Irish and in a short time saved up enough funding, found a premises, to this day the school is heavily funded/subsidised by the parents but it's worth it to get a quality education the way we wanted (in this case in irish, in your case with no religion) and no the funding doesn't cost us a huge amount per year.

with all the teachers out of work, and newly qualified graduates and all the teachers who aren't catholic (or lapsed catholics) it shouldn't be too difficult to get a group together to start a new school. It just requires a lot of leg work which parents tend to be too lazy to do instead choosing the "easy" option to send them to a catholic school and complain about their teachings.

This is incorrect. I have already stated on this thread that I have correspondance from the Dept that no new schools will be opening in my area because there are already enough school places to meet the demand that currently exists. In areas where the demand for places outstrips supply it is possible to lobby for a new school, but in areas like where we live, where the demand meets the supply, children won't be afforded any further choice.

lazygal

zeffabelli wrote: »

Yes I am aware of that and having had theology as part of my own education, I'd prefer to take control of that myself as I have no idea what qualifications if any, the teachers have in world theologies/philosophy or their historical contexts.

Morals and ethics should be taught by philosophers, not by women who have only BA s in education.

Kids are too young for this, don't have the critical faculties of interpretation.

Dr Turk Turkelton

lazygal wrote: »

If they need to be told which God to worship in school have their parents also failed at parenting?

What? The parents have made a decision for the child to attend Catholic school so I'm sure they are happy with it.
If they feel so strongly about it I'm sure they would have no problem with a one hour drive. I know that if I felt that strongly I wouldn't.

Orion

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

But the census is the only official way of knowing and definitely the most accurate as the sample size is huge (greater than 90%of the population) as opposed to your sample size of... 1(your husband).

A census isn't a sample - it's a census. The religious question in it is seriously flawed and looks like it won't be fixed in the census next year. It asks "What is your religion" - then lists the major ones, then a box for Other and only then, last in the list, is No religion. In any other form I've ever seen the box for Other is always the last in the list - it would be very easy to miss the No Religion box even if the logic behind it was sound.


It should ask - "Do you practice a religion (Y/N)". Then follow that with "If Yes, state which religion".

Also, some people tick the box for the religion they were brought up in regardless of whether or not they still practice it. Others have it ticked for them by the parents against their wishes.

So I don't count the census as an accurate reflection of the religious beliefs of this country. No rational person would.

lazygal

It is also incorrect to assume that all of those who ticked the Catholic box want their children to attend a Catholic schools. I've seen posts on here from people who have decided to send their children to CofI schools even though they have baptised their children Catholic. I know parents who want to send their children to ET schools even though they're raising them Catholic.

Orion

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

What? The parents have made a decision for the child to attend Catholic school so I'm sure they are happy with it.
If they feel so strongly about it I'm sure they would have no problem with a one hour drive. I know that if I felt that strongly I wouldn't.

I am now starting to think you are only here to troll. There are many communities in Ireland where there is no choice whatsoever. Once you get out of the major population areas there may be only one school that you can even apply to. The next town will only take your child if the local kids don't take up all the places. So for the vast majority of families in Ireland they have no choice as to what school they go to.

You need to read up on this a bit more - there's been plenty in the papers recently. Here's some reading to get you started. John Walshe - Ruairi Quinn's advisor when he was Minister for Education has even said that this is going to become an election issue. He'd know what he's talking about - he was involved in the debacle in Maynooth over the post primary patronage.

ThisRegard

Orion wrote: »

If only that was the case. A lot of secondary schools are run by religious orders too. And the curriculum is rife with catholic teachings.

Yes, that's why I qualified it with for the most part. They do tend to be a lot more relaxed about it and religion, as in Catholicism, is not a junior or leaving cert subject is it ?

lazygal wrote: »

Children have a constitutional right to attend school without having to partake in religious instruction.

I'm not saying it's right, but you're aware of the ethos of the school when you send your kid there, although you may not always have the choice of places.

Dr Turk Turkelton

eviltwin wrote: »

As I say look at mass attendance. Do you really believe that 80% of Irish Catholics go to mass?

It doesn't really matter whether they attend mass or not it's the religion they identify as being a follower of for official statistical analysis.

eviltwin

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

What? The parents have made a decision for the child to attend Catholic school so I'm sure they are happy with it.
If they feel so strongly about it I'm sure they would have no problem with a one hour drive. I know that if I felt that strongly I wouldn't.

I did this with my eldest, her school was the other side of dublin,over an hour each way, it was expensive, tiring and utterly ridiculous that none of her friends live anywhere near us. Local kids should be able to go to local schools and form relationships with the kids they grow up with, it's good for them and its good for the community. I honestly can't fathom why you would be so against having a non Catholic child in your school....What's the problem? What's wrong with them?

eviltwin

ThisRegard wrote: »

Yes, that's why I qualified it with for the most part. They do tend to be a lot more relaxed about it and religion, as in Catholicism, is not a junior or leaving cert subject is it ?



I'm not saying it's right, but you're aware of the ethos of the school when you send your kid there, although you may not always have the choice of places.

It's a junior cert subject, optional for leaving cert

ThisRegard

eviltwin wrote: »

It's a junior cert subject, optional for leaving cert

But it isn't Catholicism explicitly, it's about Faiths, world religions, history of Christianity. All the airy fairy stuff is done by then.

Akrasia

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

Sounds like hippy talk to me. I'm sure as children grow older they will make up their own minds anyhow. If they need to be told to accept other people from other cultures in school then their parents have failed at parenting.

Its not about teaching them or telling them, it's about the kids growing up together and naturally forming friendships and getting to know the other kids in their class.

That's not hippy talk. It's a lot easier to think all muslims are terrorists if you've never actually talked to a muslim.

It's a lot easier to think all protestants are the enemy if all the catholic kids go to catholic schools and all the protestant kids go to protestant schools and the only interaction they have is when they're hurling rocks at each other. (as is still the case in many parts of Northern Ireland)

galljga1

Deleted User wrote: »

Make her go to Mass every Sunday and make her listen to the readings and Sermon. Question her on it and make sure she understands that it's not all about the white dress. Play down the actual dress and if possible arrange to borrow one. If she makes any mention of money, tell her that as you won't be giving any money to any of her classmates, that she needn't expect any in return. That will focus her mind! We did that for First Communion. We also left church pretty quickly and went out for the day, taking off the dress and having fun as a family. When it came to Confirmation, we gave them the choice. They both decided to go for it. They had to attend Mass for a whole year beforehand (our decision) and both made Confirmation in their uniforms. Again, we left church and went out for the day. It is up to you to focus on the religious aspect, even if you don't believe and celebrate the day as you want to. There really is no need for the expensive dress, bouncy castle and big party!

^^^^^^^^^^
Don't do this, apart from the 'fun' part.

eviltwin

ThisRegard wrote: »

But it isn't Catholicism explicitly, it's about Faiths, world religions, history of Christianity. All the airy fairy stuff is done by then.

It covers more detailed Catholicism, the hierarchy, the workings of the church etc but covers other faiths too. Then there is the morality stuff, the discussions on abortion, homosexuality etc. I don't want my kids exposed to Catholic teaching on those issues.

zeffabelli

lazygal wrote: »

My 8 year old has already debated the golden rule with me. I am equipped to have this debate.

His teachers are not equipped to discuss axioms, moral frameworks, inductive and deductive reasoning, practical and theoretical logic and cultural assumptions. These are essential to morals and ethics.

They just don't know what to do when kids bring this stuff up.

mahoganygas

myopinion2015 wrote: »

it happened here in with our local Gaelscoil where parents wanted a Gaelscoil and the department wouldn't give them one (other suitable school's in the area excuse) they got no funding either, so the parents got together made a committee with a group of teachers who were also interested in teaching in Irish and in a short time saved up enough funding, found a premises, to this day the school is heavily funded/subsidised by the parents but it's worth it to get a quality education the way we wanted (in this case in irish, in your case with no religion) and no the funding doesn't cost us a huge amount per year.

I agree with you that this is how it should be done. If enough people in a local community want change, then this is a perfect example of how to get it done.

I believe part of the problem is that so few Irish politicians have 'come out' as agnostic or atheist. Statistically speaking, a huge number of politicians must still be in the religious closest.

Why are Irish politicians still afraid to take a stand against church involvement in our education system?

I don't buy into the excuse that they are afraid of losing the grey vote. Surely the marriage equality referendum demonstrates that the Irish public are becoming more and more rational.

zeffabelli

mahoganygas wrote: »

I agree with you that this is how it should be done. If enough people in a local community want change, then this is a perfect example of how to get it done.

I believe part of the problem is that so few Irish politicians have 'come out' as agnostic or atheist. Statistically speaking, a huge number of politicians must still be in the religious closest.

Why are Irish politicians still afraid to take a stand against church involvement in our education system?

I don't buy into the excuse that they are afraid of losing the grey vote. Surely the marriage equality referendum demonstrates that the Irish public are becoming more and more rational.

Because they don't want to pay for buying up the property.

Dr Turk Turkelton

Orion wrote: »

I am now starting to think you are only here to troll. There are many communities in Ireland where there is no choice whatsoever. Once you get out of the major population areas there may be only one school that you can even apply to. The next town will only take your child if the local kids don't take up all the places. So for the vast majority of families in Ireland they have no choice as to what school they go to.

You need to read up on this a bit more - there's been plenty in the papers recently. Here's some reading to get you started. John Walshe - Ruairi Quinn's advisor when he was Minister for Education has even said that this is going to become an election issue. He'd know what he's talking about - he was involved in the debacle in Maynooth over the post primary patronage.

I'm sorry Orion I think I should apologise to you as you seem to think I really care about this as I don't. I only gave my opinion at the start and it sort of took off!
I definitely won't be reading the papers you retrieved for me and I apologise for putting you to the trouble of searching for them for me.
All I meant at the start is that I will be sending my kids to Catholic school when the time comes and will be extremely grateful for the wonderful free education they will receive in this country.
My other point(which is the purpose of this thread) is that I can't get my head around people availing of this wonderful free education in a school with a Catholic ethos and then moaning about the kids being taught about Catholicism.
Apologies again for the trouble I put you to I shall now bow out.

eviltwin

Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »

I'm sorry Orion I think I should apologise to you as you seem to think I really care about this as I don't. I only gave my opinion at the start and it sort of took off!
I definitely won't be reading the papers you retrieved for me and I apologise for putting you to the trouble of searching for them for me.
All I meant at the start is that I will be sending my kids to Catholic school when the time comes and will be extremely grateful for the wonderful free education they will receive in this country.
My other point(which is the purpose of this thread) is that I can't get my head around people availing of this wonderful free education in a school with a Catholic ethos and then moaning about the kids being taught about Catholicism.
Apologies again for the trouble I put you to I shall now bow out.

Just because education is subsided, cause its not free, doesn't mean parents should shut up about aspects of the system they are unhappy about. And it's not even about education, it's about access to that education. All children should be treated equally.

eviltimeban

Orion, you beat the troll!

PearlJ

I find the teaching of religion to small children very frightening to be honest.

My child doesn't do religion in school so I wouldn't have had any experience of it, but I attended my nephews communion and I was completely astounded with how children are completely brain washed by religion. From the music and how the wording is structured in the songs and prayers and how they recite it like robots was absolutely terrifying to hear small children do.

People criticise ISIS for brainwashing children about religion yet we do exactly the same thing here with Catholicism.

And as for the generic argument thrown out that if you don't want your children to be taught religion don't send them to Catholic schools, first off, those of us in rural areas have no choice and secondly and most importantly, I contribute financially to the running of the school, both in contributions and in my taxes and also give my time volunteering for fundraising events so I think deserve a hell of a lot more say in how its run than the church who contributes NOTHING to the running of the schools.

LegacyUser

lazygal wrote: »

This is incorrect. I have already stated on this thread that I have correspondance from the Dept that no new schools will be opening in my area because there are already enough school places to meet the demand that currently exists. In areas where the demand for places outstrips supply it is possible to lobby for a new school, but in areas like where we live, where the demand meets the supply, children won't be afforded any further choice.

and i am trying to tell you this group were in the same predicament re the department and persevered anyway and eventually got what they wanted,it wasn't easy, they were told "no" they were told "there are sufficient places to meet the demand in your area" (their argument i think was these places weren't the ethos they wanted aka english language single sex vs irish language unisex) and lets be honest i feel a non religion based school no matter where should get enough support from non religious parents and unemployed teachers


that is why i said it would take a lot of leg work on behalf of the parent, but if you feel strong enough to not want your child educated in the catholic ethos surely this leg work is worth it rather than sitting back doing nothing but complaining?

we have rural schools with 20 pupils in the entire school, if the majority of these wanted non catholic education their parents could easily set up a school for non religious teaching for them and with the original "catholic" one without pupils the department would have a "Demand" in the area.

with urban area's there really is no excuse, here in Cork at least 5 educate togethers are within an hours drive away from the vast majority,

considering a person i know had to move from a school to the next nearest one 40 minutes from home due to their parent wanting to protect them from bullying, i can't see why a parent passionate about religion (or lack of) cannot make a similar commute for their child if they care that much about it as to pull them out of class?

it's lazy in these cases pure and simple, i would love it if people would just stop doing these kind of things, maybe then the department would set up more non religious schools, but if you are a parent who isn't catholic and baptised your child to get them into a school/make their communion..etc you are the problem, you are the reason the department is defending catholic schools having high enrollment of baptised pupils over non baptised.

complaining about it after the fact is useless.

purplecow1977

Firstly I am a primary school teacher.
Having taught junior infants in the past, it wasn't related much at all to God and Catholicim and was based more on being a good friend, and feelings. I haven't seen the new Grow in Love book but perhaps it is different.

Secondly if parents want their children to attend EDUCATE TOGETHER schools, how many of ye are actively doing something about this? I understand it takes a long time but you've got to start somewhere!

Thirdly I work in a Catholic ethos school. I don't spend the recommended time on religion per week. Some weeks it may not be done at all. I pick and choose what I want to do. I taught 6th class this year and have never made any reference to gays going to hell. Or living with a partner before marriage. Or sex before marriage. Maybe it depends on the age of the teacher but considering many people, teachers included, break these "rules" it is something I do not force down any of my students throats. In fact religion in general is never forced upon them, although admittedly in the Sacrament years there is more of an emphasis than usual.

I had a Muslim boy in my class this year and he completed other work while we did religion. I found a Qu'ran in a book shop and gave it to him. Said he could read it during religion if he liked. I asked him questions about his own religion and traditions and enjoyed hearing about them and he enjoyed sharing with the class. Most years I have had a sacrament class I have had students who opt out. I've never had any issues.

Finally I don't particularly wish to teach Catholicism in school. It's not a subject to be taught in my opinion. I do enjoy teaching a bit about various faiths though but this could be done in half an hour per week, instead of the 2.5 hours currently allocated. (As mentioned previously this never happens in my classroom and many teachers I know! I spend majority of time on English maths and irish!)

If school was to finish half hour earlier and then religious instruction commence, I wonder how many would attend? School would essentially finish at the same time but how many would stay for that half hour???

Edited to add I take offence to the above comment about brainwashing. What is wrong with reciting prayers or songs? I think many people are considering their own schooling when religion had a different role in schools and are allowing their attitudes and experiences to affect what actually happens in many modern schools.

lazygal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Edited to add I take offence to the above comment about brainwashing. What is wrong with reciting prayers or songs? I think many people are considering their own schooling when religion had a different role in schools and are allowing their attitudes and experiences to affect what actually happens in many modern schools.

There are few creepier sights for me than seeing five year olds recite some of the prayers in junior infant religion books. It is brainwashing, and there is a very good reason why many religions want to encourage recitation of prayers and songs of the faith by children. Looking back on my own schooling the indoctrination programme did a great job of encouraging recitation to enforce indoctrination. Sounds like that hasn't changed.

Dr Turk Turkelton

eviltimeban wrote: »

Orion, you beat the troll!

I know I had viewed out but when I read a stupid post like this I have to reply.
Giving ones opinion is not "trolling" and yes my opinion is that ET schools are hippy dippy and I would have no interest in having a child educated in one fit the foreseeable future but maybe in time they will become good schools to educate your children in.
Another opinion of mine is that if parents choose to send their children to schools with a Catholic ethos then they have taken away their right to moan about the child being taught religion.
And yes it is bad parenting to send your child to a place where you think will not be good for them just cause it's s bit handier for you in the morning.
Now sorry again for coming back into the thread but an extremely stupid and lazy post like that deserved an answer.
If people don't agree with you it's not trolling it's their opinion.

ash23

lazygal wrote: »

That's Catholic teaching though. You can't pick the nice bits about the faith that you like and do communion as a nice day out, and then complain about the Catholic church preaching that gay people are intrinsically disordered. And sex outside of marriage is a sin in the Catholic faith. Hell, in the eyes of the Catholic church I'm not married because I didn't marry in the church.

You actually can. As per my first post. I had no problem with my child being in the class and listening to the religious bits and talking about it at home. And most of it I let slide.

But when the religious teaching started to contradict science and my own personal morals, I weighed in and taught my daughter that those particular teachings of the church were plain and outright wrong.
I also taught her to put it across in a respectful manner and we never had any problems but if any teacher had told her god wouldn't be happy with her for not going to mass I'd have made a complaint. I don't believe in instilling religious fear into children and thankfully, the school my daughter went to didn't take that approach so there was no issue. But I'd have actually rounded up a posse of parents if that kind of hell and eternal damnation was what was actually being taught. I remember it from my own primary school days and it's terrifying for children.

mahoganygas

purplecow1977 wrote: »

If school was to finish half hour earlier and then religious instruction commence, I wonder how many would attend? School would essentially finish at the same time but how many would stay for that half hour???

Excellent point.
I imagine this would appeal to both religious and non-religious parents.

I would support this. But on the condition that the roll-out of multi-denominational schools continued.

This proposition would give parents more of a choice, but it still not equal access to education.

A step in the right direction.